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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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Well from the video I saw that he was easily baited into yoshi's defensive things like parrying and super armor. If he knew the match-up he would have more sophisticated responses to them. There were also plenty of times where leffen was egging on the edge and he could have walked up and dsmashed but didn't actually know where the eggs were going and it was clear he didn't even know the range of the eggs.

To me it just seemed like a mediocre falco who knows important match-ups from experience but doesn't have the spark of creativity or ability to think on his feet that separates him from the higher tier of players. He simply treated yoshi like he was another character and didn't actually play with yoshi specific strategies in mind. Also, it was very clear that leffen out classed him as a player.
 

choknater

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choknater
the better response to ledge eggs is walk away and wait for either a technical error, or for yoshi to approach.

the basic approach to the yoshi matchup is to use attacks that hit hard, and be defensive. ganon, falco, and samus are all very strong at the matchup. you just have to space vs yoshi in a way that's not gonna let him do any wd approaches, and also stuff aerial approaches. his egg projectile is pretty decent but very laggy if done on the ground. just gotta avoid eggs and beat yoshi on the encounters

the reason hitting hard is important is because of his CC and double jump armor. at higher percents, those types of armor won't be able to stand hard hitting attacks, which makes his defense very weak since his shield is already pretty bad. yoshi has to block and perhaps roll, spotdodge, or light shield slide to get away, which resets the positioning to a medium/long-range one which is usually favorable for the other character.

apparently leffen can powershield, shield drop on platforms so probably gotta watch out for that one too hahaha.

but yeah, the yoshi matchup is free, but not without practice. you gotta know what yoshi can do.

(sheik's cg also ***** yoshi but ofc that doesn't apply in PAL.)
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
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Sierra Vista AZ
Yoshi's not free.... *cries in a corner*

:(

sad face

I mean he's fun, and cool, and I've done fairly well with him, I mean he can't be that free.. :( can he?
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
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Dot Dot Dash Dot
Leffen's performance indicates that... Yoshi is a low tier with a few cute gimmicks that let him hang with the big boys as long as they don't abuse his crippling flaws like his bad approaching game, bad recovery, bad shield and general lack of options compared to top and high tiers.
I might disect all the misconceptions in this post later. Maybe.

Yoshi has a **** ton of potential. He flouts so many of the fundamental defensive mechanics in Melee, it's kind of hilarious.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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26,564
huehue
just promise not to start doubting your character after i take ur cash :)
i'd hate to be responsible for our resident frame guy going emo and not posting any more
Lolol, I'd doubt myself before DK
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
I might disect all the misconceptions in this post later. Maybe.

Yoshi has a **** ton of potential. He flouts so many of the fundamental defensive mechanics in Melee, it's kind of hilarious.
yes, and then there are the people who are aware of both his potential and his limits.

yoshi doesn't even have a good standard forward approach!
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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Sierra Vista AZ
:) I believe in Leffen,

he comes off the wrong way sometimes...heck many times... but he may just be defending Yoshi, and his abilities as a player.. :) I mean idk, idk what i know... >.>; or even what im saying, but i think i understand..

I mean, watching his vids, i noticed things he was telling me NOT to do, and now I see him using, these things, combos, etc, because I was successful w/them as well.. It's all like a trial and error process.. idk..

Still lets not OVERRATE Yoshi either, which is what I'm afraid this may turn into...

Leffen's vids are awesome..

and I'm a make bracket at apex with my Roy, (well it's a goal) idk if i'll actually do it, but i'll try).. ^^

@Choknater, yeah we gotta play, I played HMW, as well, and he also new the Yoshi MU very well, I had difficulties... ^^ but still I've always believed in my character... I believed in my M2, when I played him... I believed in my Yoshi, and i believe in my Roy as well.. :)

"sigh"

Good ole faith!

n_n
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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Sierra Vista AZ
^that's not fair!,

is he even tourney legal!?!?

cuz wouldnt I just automatically win? since masterhand can't lose any stocks!?!?

if im wrong im dumb, i know make fun of me.. XD idk
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
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Actually he doesn't. Yoshi's strength actually is in his own defense not ignoring the defense of the opponent.
You deliberately misinterpret posts to give yourself a basis for argument like it's your damn job.

"Flouting defensive mechanics" means Yoshi's defence too, you noob.
yes, and then there are the people who are aware of both his potential and his limits.

yoshi doesn't even have a good standard forward approach!
I think this shows a misunderstanding of how Yoshi's meant to be played.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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Jun 30, 2008
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Stockholm, Sweden
Jeez, you guys have no idea what you're talking about.
First off, I dont outclass Pepito as a player... just watch our Falco dittos from a while back, they were much more even than this set. Pepito has played this matchup almost as much as I've played it so while he does makes mistakes, so do I (I usually do a lot better combos and I flubbed a lot of edgeguards).

And Falco should pressure Yoshi (he shouldnt spam tech skill like axe did, no offense but he was way to predictable) but he should try to mix it up as hard as he can, because no matter what move any character throws out, if Yoshi knows it coming, then it won't work.
Just like in the marth matchup, Yoshi is usually on the defensive but that is only because Falcos are forced to approach since he cannot handle neithers range/powershields (yoshi has the BY FAR best powershield ingame btw).
This is just like saying "OMG WHY DID YOU GET HIT BY DASH DANCE GRAB BY M2K ALL THE TIME"
because while it is a defensive move to parry/shield drop or to pivot grab, as long as you can bait them into approaching when you want by conditioning them that camping is bad (which it really is for Falco), isnt a bad strategy.


and as for "Yoshi has a no forward approaches" really, get the hell out >_>. You can't be serious lol.
Just read my big post in this thread if you want a elaborate response but if you cannot be arsed, let me you just tell you that you're REALLY WRONG.

@Ledgecamping: If done correctly, yoshi is 100% invincible, and even if you miss the timing by a bit, you're still invincible before the egg which means Falco cannot Dsmash you out of it. It's really like saying "hurr durr jump and dair Sheik when she shino stalls!".
Also, the eggs do 12% and leads to forward air. Falcos (really 90% of all the characters ) good option is to back away and let Yoshi get up.

Not only does this let Yoshi regain stage control for free, but he can also just stay on the ledge (I wouldnt do this vs Pepito since he's my bro lol) and on YS, FOD and BF you cannot avoid the eggs if you stand onstage, they reach the entire stage.

@Sveet, you're last post makes zero sense. Explain yourself so I can invalidate your uneducated points.


I've won 3 tournaments in the past 4 weeks (3/3 since I started maining him in other words,) using 90% Yoshi in THREE DIFFERENT REGIONS. I barely lose any games in matchups which I plan to use Yoshi in (so not in Peach, ICs, Sheik) and honestly - if I was 100% onpoint during my set vs Pepito I don't think I'd have lost more a game either (I was the TO and were sleep deprived johns).

Keep doubting me, I don't give a damn. Just watch me as I go I **** everyone with a character that you see as worse than DK, Link, Young Link, Zelda, Mewtwo and freaking ROY.
I'm done discussing this, I know damn well that you're gonna turned around once you play me.
I am going to a Finish tournament this weekend (I'm gonna be hangover as fk during it but so will Armada) and a Swedish national the week after.

Expect plenty of vids of me annihilating everyone, Armada included
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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5,493
Kage, it helps if you explain things more thoroughly. That one line doesn't really help put it in perspective.

And I see potential, but more vids are always nice, leffen. :)
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
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Jeez, you guys have no idea what you're talking about.
First off, I dont outclass Pepito as a player... just watch our Falco dittos from a while back, they were much more even than this set. Pepito has played this matchup almost as much as I've played it so while he does makes mistakes, so do I (I usually do a lot better combos and I flubbed a lot of edgeguards).
Nah, his mistakes were pretty clear and could've been avoided if Pepito didn't do stupid noob-Falco over aggressive stuff.

And Falco should pressure Yoshi (he shouldnt spam tech skill like axe did, no offense but he was way to predictable) but he should try to mix it up as hard as he can, because no matter what move any character throws out, if Yoshi knows it coming, then it won't work.
Just like in the marth matchup, Yoshi is usually on the defensive but that is only because Falcos are forced to approach since he cannot handle neithers range/powershields (yoshi has the BY FAR best powershield ingame btw).
This is just like saying "OMG WHY DID YOU GET HIT BY DASH DANCE GRAB BY M2K ALL THE TIME"
because while it is a defensive move to parry/shield drop or to pivot grab, as long as you can bait them into approaching when you want by conditioning them that camping is bad (which it really is for Falco), isnt a bad strategy.
Dash-dance grab has mix-ups into Marth's entire moveset, crouching and waiting for Pepito to run into you is not the same.

and as for "Yoshi has a no forward approaches" really, get the hell out >_>. You can't be serious lol.
Just read my big post in this thread if you want a elaborate response but if you cannot be arsed, let me you just tell you that you're REALLY WRONG.
I checked your big post and there was no section on approaching :/

Keep doubting me, I don't give a damn. Just watch me as I go I **** everyone with a character that you see as worse than DK, Link, Young Link, Zelda, Mewtwo and freaking ROY.
I'm done discussing this, I know damn well that you're gonna turned around once you play me.
k.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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Stockholm, Sweden
"How does Yoshi approach?"
Yoshi is kinda similiar to CF in that aspect, here are his main options:

-his Fair has long range, does a lot of damage and is safe on shield and CCsand leads to combos, (basically a Ganon Fair that combos)
-His bair has EXTREMELY low lag (It autocancels 3 frames after his last hitbox and it has IASA frames 8 frames after the last hitbox). Its used the same way as CF's Nair BUT, it does more damage, you can do a Double jump/instant waveland away/Nair right afterwards. Relatively safe against CC.
-You can nair, it has bad priority when you face them but if you do it backwards it basically has fox/falco nair priority. Pretty safe vs CC since it has low lag.
-Uair has enourmous priority and wins over everything (falco dair, marths dair etc) from below so going high usually sucks vs Yoshi.
-A air grab; if your opponent is shielding your approaches you can just grab him ;o It reaches far and has low lag. ***** CC.

-A great CC in the air and on the ground.
-A fast wavedash, a safe dtilt (that ***** CC), a high priority Ftilt and a good dash dance game.
-He can auto cancel from his double jump by DJCanceling a down air (autocancels on frame 15). This allows you to weave in and out with emptys much like jigglypuff.

Now, combine all of these with his crazy double jump mixups AND his waveland/platform mindgames...AND Parry that beats any attack and you have a pretty damn good approaching/neutral game.
Its extremely hard to do properly and that is exactly why he is so underrated, but its certainly possible.
not even gonna answer the rest since you are just theorycrafting since you have no experience with Yoshi
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Montreal, Quebec
The only way that might seem that way is if you face the Top 5 players since these guys can easily show you where you do things wrong or they capitalize on every single mistake you do.
 

VA

Smash Hero
Joined
May 18, 2006
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Brighton, UK
Jigglypuff is ****, Peach is better.

Jiggs only went up the tiers because a bunch of europeans got butt hurt by hungrybox ****** them.
 

Grim Tuesday

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not even gonna answer the rest since you are just theorycrafting since you have no experience with Yoshi
Get off your high-horse.

Anyway, in the video that was posted earlier why didn't you use bair in the way you described in that quote?

Fair is slow.

Most of the other stuff you listed was neutral game, not approaching game.

You are right when you say that his approaching game is similar to Captain Falcon's though; i.e. not very good.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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@leffen spend some time learning english and reading my posts and maybe you'll be enlightened as to their meaning
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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lol@ leffen saying he doesn't out class pepito as a player. ur better than him dude lol. not saying that he is bad. id also just like to point out that two players playing vs each other don't necessarily learn the MU at the same rate. I think u may be mistaking certain things such as falco's MU advantage for Pepito's application of MU knowledge.

most of the time its the low tier player who understands very intimate nuances of the uppers character because of how overly used they are. it looks completely different when the high tier player truly knows the MU, it looks, not like he is capitalizing on mistakes but that the character has very few options.

:phone:
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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Your Pikachu is extremely unpredictable and I am really inspired by how well you approach.
I just think that the vids that are up of your Falco/Fox vs Vman Yoshi you jumped in the first possible frame you could though that was just the impression I got from the vids that you didnt really think (it was selected friendlies though)
 
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