Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Grim Tuesday]

OH GOD, THIS HAS BEEN COVERED SO MANY TIMES. It is a useless discussion and one which you are factually wrong about. No debate, these are facts, you are wrong.

Fox/Bowser
Falco

Everyone else.

1. Why are you so antagonistic?
2. Fortress can't be punished on hit with perfect SDI and DI?
OR
3. ICs can't be completely invulnerable?

@Strife: I don't think anyone here thinks Yoshi is a "lolbadlowtier"...

 

[VA]

What? Sucky? It's a great tool to disrupt approaches and instantly make your opponent feel a bit more pressured. It's super fast too. To add to that, I'm pretty sure a lot of characters can do jabs after a powershield though not everyone of them is as effective within that particular situation. PS to gentleman is pretty sexy too, it works. =P

Edit: Perfect play doesn't exist, enough of that crap.

I like the gentleman idea, I just hate Ganondorf and think PS > dsmash ****s all over PS > jab. Magus just camped and did it to me and then didn't follow it up, I was like this is garbbbbbbage, but I see your point.

 

[Strife]

@Strife: I don't think anyone here thinks Yoshi is a "lolbadlowtier"...

You clearly think too highly of Kage.

And some of the posts you've made indicate that's what you think.

 

[leffen]

Powershield wavedash is identical to normal shield->wavedash except for the slide powershield gives you


@Vman: Its good as a mixup when you don't have stage control. I admit that I thought it was more useless before but that is 99% because noone handles that move well enough yet.

 

[Zoler]

Zoler, my teammate has played countless yoshi vs fox matches, and yet I 4stocked+3stocked him in our tournament set but only 2 stocked him with Fox.

Well, I played pretty terrible that tournament, much better vs your yoshi at TiA, I won some friendlies, it wasn't close to this hardcore ****. XD

But yeah your yoshi is much harder to play vs than both your falco and fox LOL, something is wrong with that dinousaur

Mid tier

Doc
Samus
Mario
Pika
Yoshi

Low tier
Ganon

 

[leffen]

I played much better at Terebi :o.
I had actually played Yoshi a lot before the tournament (TiA warmup lols).

and in the recorded friendlies I think you won 0 ;D

and JOHNNNNNNS <3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You clearly think too highly of Kage.

And some of the posts you've made indicate that's what you think.

Don't assume

I think Yoshi is lower mid.

And if I remember correctly, I said that I think Yoshi is underrated in one of my posts haha

 

[Zoler]

And I played much worse. I definitely won a few friendlies, with both fox and falco. Obviously it was you playing bad and possibly not me playing better. Ying logic at it's finest. >_>

 

[KAOSTAR]

for starters its pal yoshi lol. but you probably aren't exploiting yoshi as a character, yoshi is one of those characters you often have to change the way u play because he does have some very unique properties.


not to bring up tim....again lol, but its similar to him vs m2k and him vs waffles. knowing a MU is more than general approaches and combo weight. its often understanding the opponents mindset and limitations.

 

[leffen]

Those weren't recorded :o
and I know that you could've played better, but those weren't tournament matches so they don't count really anyway ;pPpPpP

 

[V3ctorMan]

What? Sucky? It's a great tool to disrupt approaches and instantly make your opponent feel a bit more pressured. It's super fast too. To add to that, I'm pretty sure a lot of characters can do jabs after a powershield though not everyone of them is as effective within that particular situation. PS to gentleman is pretty sexy too, it works. =P

We gonna play this time, Kage? My Dino never got to play you at G2, even tho we got plenty of chances...

Hooray for procrastinating... also this.. made me lulz... just in case you don't remember you posted this at Pound V

*bashes fist* So a little dinosaur has arrived..

 

[Divinokage]

I like the gentleman idea, I just hate Ganondorf and think PS > dsmash ****s all over PS > jab. Magus just camped and did it to me and then didn't follow it up, I was like this is garbbbbbbage, but I see your point.

You can't really follow up after PS to Jab except maybe with Ftilt or Downtilt depending on the spacing but generally the pushback from PS in the first place will not allow you to follow up. You'll have to rely on reads/prediction after the jab whether he gets knocked down or not.

Oh ya also Jab to dash attack is a true combo when you are close enough to hit the dash attack early.

We gonna play this time, Kage? My Dino never got to play you at G2, even tho we got plenty of chances...

Hooray for procrastinating... also this.. made me lulz... just in case you don't remember you posted this at Pound V

Sure, we will play. =D And lol at my quote.

 

[VA]

You can't really follow up after PS to Jab except maybe with Ftilt or Downtilt depending on the spacing but generally the pushback from PS in the first place will not allow you to follow up. You'll have to rely on reads/prediction after the jab whether he gets knocked down or not.

Oh ya also Jab to dash attack is a true combo when you are close enough to hit the dash attack early.

I kind of hate these conversations but surely it's DI/% dependent as to what you can do after?

I would have thought mid % + no tech could be followed up but I'm no ganondorf.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kage, hurry up and learn how to chain grab properly so you can death grab Sheik.

 

[VA]

Kage, hurry up and learn how to chain grab properly so you can death grab Sheik.

Yeah, show me video evidence 0 death CGs on Sheik.

I'm busy not buying it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The chaingrab is real


Ganon grabbing Sheik is a lie

 

[VA]

Oh yeah I've seen it with my own eyes. 3 times in a row in a tournament match. I jumped around and squealed like a pig.

What I haven't seen is Kage doing this, ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon's d-throw CG is something like 0-90% but the last 10% or something is tricky because you have to grab her legs.

I actually taught my little brother how to do it in ages past (like, 2009?) back when he played. He could get to about 75% consistently but the last 15% weren't guaranteed for him and he kind of guessed or ended it prematurely (usually that one) because the reaction window is kind of awkward and it takes some precision (her legs are skinny and double jump is OP). I'm not sure if you have to pivot grab at any point on a slight DI or non-DI or DI up like you do with some characters' CGs to get the last bit of percent (Peach's, Roy's, so forth).

At about 90% you can just d-throw > U-smash a bunch of her DIs and she dies off the top of FD. On DI behind you can actually just c-stick an f-smash in that direction and it'll hit provided you did it correctly. And it has the same effect.

Hooray for auto-combos.

 

[Strife]

CGing a good Shiek as Ganon maybe the only real way to win. I hope Kage is trying that and not agreeing to this no CGing crap I see a lot of Shieks.

PS: Good job at rom4 Kage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ended it prematurely

 

[Warhawk]

Why would it be Bowser? Fortress is punishable on hit in perfect play.

If I remember correctly it had something to do with perfect late fair to fortress shield pressure with Bowser being unpunishable since Bowser's invincible from frames 1-5 when he fortresses. It was still just a joke I'm pretty sure, as Bowser even with that has very little in his arsenal.

Also with the general discussion I don't think there's a problem for most people with Yoshi moving up in the tier list (he's horribly underrated), just that him being high tier seems a bit of a stretch. I could see him being in the same tier as Pikachu though.

 

[leffen]

I think Yoshi should be ranked in mid tier (above DK ) in Ntsc, much higher in PAL (he got buffed SOOOOO incredibly much, by far the most by any other character).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought yoshi is lighter in PAL and hit dair got nerfed?

 

[Varist]

why is there not a "NTSC -> PAL Changes" sticky at the top of these ****ing boards? list dem changes leffen.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There used to be but the person who managed the thread (5150) got some ultra super ban and all of his posts became invisible

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, hurry up and learn how to chain grab properly so you can death grab Sheik.

I actually agreed to no CG with m2k this time for some reason. I figured I'll probably get grabbed a lot more than i grab him so it might be better than I thought, idk. lol.

 

[tarheeljks]

if you agreed to cg it might have a weirdish a result where you win more often even though you get pwned more often

 

[Divinokage]

Well I was keeping up with m2k the 2nd game for 2 stocks evenly and then I started doing a little too many mistakes to beat him that time, M2k is ruthless haha. =P

 

[KAOSTAR]

he will slaughter women and children...during friendlies.

 

[Warhawk]

I think Yoshi should be ranked in mid tier (above DK ) in Ntsc, much higher in PAL (he got buffed SOOOOO incredibly much, by far the most by any other character).

See I think most of us can agree with this, I think most of us just got the impression that you thought Yoshi was high tier in both.

 

[Divinokage]

Above DK I'm not too sure, he still has great setups vs many characters and the DK mains before did extremely well before too.

 

[VA]

Swizzy is inhuman at CGs, often getting 3-5 to ftilt on space animals and I saw him get about 12 death CGs to usmash on Sheiks (at the last tournament).

 

[choknater]

i'm rewatching both leffen and pepito sets

after i'm done i'll post a commentary since everyone in here except for leffen seems to not know **** about what yoshi is capable of. i'm trying to put myself in pepito's shoes and what i'm seeing is quite eye-opening. i just don't want this debate to become blown out of proportion just because nobody knows anything and is just trying to squash the new.

before i say too much though i still want to know the yoshi buffs in pal. haha.

 

[leffen]

a huge weight change (CC reliant character + his djcc benefits from it), more useful dair (easier to just di away and meteor cancel in NTSC, almost impossible in pal), forward/up smash is significantly stronger and sheik doesn't have a 0-100% Chaingrab which makes the matchup even lol.

 

[Winston]

Yoshi looked so unbelievably heavy in those matches vs. Pepito. Bair at like 120 sent him nowhere

 

[leffen]

Falco has a incredibly hard time killing Yoshi if the Yoshi just plays gay (camps ledge area + platforms + spams lightshield). It's kind of ridiculous and so very funny at the same time.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yoshi is heavier in PAL, much heavier... His Dair is weaker, however I believe, comes out at a faster rate... Falco/Fox aren't as powerful in PAL as they are here in NTSC....

I also believe all (most) of Yoshi's smash attacks are stronger as well... In PAL, I think, Yoshi has a better superarmor (last longer at higher %)

Ummmm that's all i can remember atm..

I'm not 100% sure on all of this, but i'm sure most of it is very accurate...

oh and sheik doesn't own yoshi in PAL like she does here in NTSC...

I envy you Leffen.. I wish we played PAL here where Yoshi's that good...

Guess i'll have to settle for NTSC Yoshi... haven't done too badly.. here in NTSC i don think

 

[Grim Tuesday]

a huge weight change (CC reliant character + his djcc benefits from it), more useful dair (easier to just di away and meteor cancel in NTSC, almost impossible in pal), forward/up smash is significantly stronger and sheik doesn't have a 0-100% Chaingrab which makes the matchup even lol.

Seems similar to the difference between Doc and Mario, if not a little more exaggerated.

It would definitely move him up a tier from NTSC (NTSC Yoshi: with the Links, DK, etc... PAL Yoshi: With Mario, Luigi and Samus), not much more than that though haha

 

[Blistering Speed]

Yoshi is heavier in PAL, much heavier... His Dair is weaker, however I believe, comes out at a faster rate... Falco/Fox aren't as powerful in PAL as they are here in NTSC....

Falco's pretty much unchanged. The late portion of D Air doesn't spike, but who the hell hits with that part of the move anyway.

 

[choknater]

alright, i'm done. i can see the clear differences now that make yoshi viable in pal. the only reason i kept saying yoshi is *** and yoshi is free is because the weight difference in NTSC really does make a big difference. i said that the main strategy is to hit him hard, but if that extra weight gives him armor at 50~60% and even higher for powerful attacks, it pretty much forces every character to be weary of their approach.

i think everyone should watch the set and put themselves in pepito's shoes. when i first watched the sets, i thought pepito was making a lot of foolish decisions, but that's because all my attention was on yoshi. when i focused on the falco, there were countless times that pepito got punished, but i understood why. i was like "i would have lasered there too" and "i would have daired there too." yoshi's defense is way more respectable than i realized, and it makes me think that the PAL falco vs yoshi matchup is perhaps only 60:40 matchup

the reason i think falco still has the advantage is because there were clear times that pepito knew what to do. here are some solutions i came up with regarding falco's options vs yoshi

1. grabbing yoshi is great at low %, so you don't have to worry about armor. you sacrifice combo damage, but every hit that can potentially lead into a combo can be punished by armor stuff, then don't go for it.
2. respect yoshi and use bair/utilt defense a lot at lower percents. i'd estimate about 70% and above is when you can break yoshi's CC and double jump armor more often, so that is the point where falco can become more aggressive. in a sense, i see yoshi as the opposite of lucario

before i get to the next point, i want to take back what i said earlier: that yoshi has no forward approaches. the thing with yoshi is that he has MANY approaches, but only a few of them are safe. yoshi's dash attack and dash grab are very good, but it's kinda like the same way samuses use grabs and dash attacks. they should only be used when you know they'll hit someone via a punish or outprioritizing an aerial or recovery or something. yoshi has to be in the right position (above or diagonally above) the opponent to use a shield safe djc aerial, which falco can stay out of. that said...

3. u smash would make a very strong defensive move if the falco can react to yoshi's djc approach attempts. if you run away from yoshi a lot using bair/utilt, yoshi would probably be more reserved in his approach, but if you happen to be facing yoshi and yoshi wants to approach from the air, just react and usmash because it would either 1) trade 2) outprioritize 3) break armor. (another option would be 4: whiff, but that means you made a crappy reaction.) i know it sounds a bit unorthodox theory bros, but i'd definitely keep it in mind if i was ever to play leffen.

people in this thread are very uneducated in yoshi's potential except for vman, leffen, and people WHO ACTUALLY HAVE many hours of EXPERIENCE vs yoshi. and even my experience is not enough, as i was seeing clear times that pepito was making the same mistakes that i would have. yoshi's parry is incredibly strong vs falco and falco has to adapt into choosing his moves at the right time, and not go in too eagerly. but falco, as the best offensive character in the game, can still choose his attacks wisely and have the advantage against yoshi.

as leffen continues to bring out yoshi's full potential (which he is. this guy is crazy, he's way better than fumi), i think people will also become more aware of his weaknesses. they are there, but they are not as drastic as people are making them out to be

yoshi seems like he actually has very few bad matchups in PAL

however, all his weaknesses are greatly amplified in NTSC, and he is sure to be disadvantaged against most high tier characters. fox, falco, and ganon all have strength buffs vs yoshi's armor. sheik gains a cg, and overall most characters can break armor using strong attacks, like falcon, samus, ic's.

after some thought, i think yoshi can even be advantaged against puff lol. PUFF IS ***, YALL SHOULD KNOW!!!

that's my 2 cents