Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

1. Why are you so antagonistic?
2. Fortress can't be punished on hit with perfect SDI and DI?
OR
3. ICs can't be completely invulnerable?

@Strife: I don't think anyone here thinks Yoshi is a "lolbadlowtier"...

Bowser has a broken ledge game in perfect play that gives him a 1 frame window to land onstage and still do actions or something like that if the opponent goes to steal the edge. It has very little to do with the Fortress.

ICs cannot be fully invulnerable in perfect play in the same way Bowser can be.

This discussion has been played out before, with people much more knowledgeable about perfect play than you or I. Please do not bring it up, there's absolutely no point to discussing it in this thread because of how vastly different human potential and TAS potential are. Most MUs in perfect play basically boil down to stalemates anyway.

 

[choknater]

alright, i'm done. i can see the clear differences now that make yoshi viable in pal. the only reason i kept saying yoshi is *** and yoshi is free is because the weight difference in NTSC really does make a big difference. i said that the main strategy is to hit him hard, but if that extra weight gives him armor at 50~60% and even higher for powerful attacks, it pretty much forces every character to be weary of their approach.

i think everyone should watch the set and put themselves in pepito's shoes. when i first watched the sets, i thought pepito was making a lot of foolish decisions, but that's because all my attention was on yoshi. when i focused on the falco, there were countless times that pepito got punished, but i understood why. i was like "i would have lasered there too" and "i would have daired there too." yoshi's defense is way more respectable than i realized, and it makes me think that the PAL falco vs yoshi matchup is perhaps only 60:40 matchup

the reason i think falco still has the advantage is because there were clear times that pepito knew what to do. here are some solutions i came up with regarding falco's options vs yoshi

1. grabbing yoshi is great at low %, so you don't have to worry about armor. you sacrifice combo damage, but every hit that can potentially lead into a combo can be punished by armor stuff, then don't go for it.
2. respect yoshi and use bair/utilt defense a lot at lower percents. i'd estimate about 70% and above is when you can break yoshi's CC and double jump armor more often, so that is the point where falco can become more aggressive. in a sense, i see yoshi as the opposite of lucario

before i get to the next point, i want to take back what i said earlier: that yoshi has no forward approaches. the thing with yoshi is that he has MANY approaches, but only a few of them are safe. yoshi's dash attack and dash grab are very good, but it's kinda like the same way samuses use grabs and dash attacks. they should only be used when you know they'll hit someone via a punish or outprioritizing an aerial or recovery or something. yoshi has to be in the right position (above or diagonally above) the opponent to use a shield safe djc aerial, which falco can stay out of. that said...

3. u smash would make a very strong defensive move if the falco can react to yoshi's djc approach attempts. if you run away from yoshi a lot using bair/utilt, yoshi would probably be more reserved in his approach, but if you happen to be facing yoshi and yoshi wants to approach from the air, just react and usmash because it would either 1) trade 2) outprioritize 3) break armor. (another option would be 4: whiff, but that means you made a crappy reaction.) i know it sounds a bit unorthodox theory bros, but i'd definitely keep it in mind if i was ever to play leffen.

people in this thread are very uneducated in yoshi's potential except for vman, leffen, and people WHO ACTUALLY HAVE many hours of EXPERIENCE vs yoshi. and even my experience is not enough, as i was seeing clear times that pepito was making the same mistakes that i would have. yoshi's parry is incredibly strong vs falco and falco has to adapt into choosing his moves at the right time, and not go in too eagerly. but falco, as the best offensive character in the game, can still choose his attacks wisely and have the advantage against yoshi.

as leffen continues to bring out yoshi's full potential (which he is. this guy is crazy, he's way better than fumi), i think people will also become more aware of his weaknesses. they are there, but they are not as drastic as people are making them out to be

yoshi seems like he actually has very few bad matchups in PAL

however, all his weaknesses are greatly amplified in NTSC, and he is sure to be disadvantaged against most high tier characters. fox, falco, and ganon all have strength buffs vs yoshi's armor. sheik gains a cg, and overall most characters can break armor using strong attacks, like falcon, samus, ic's.

after some thought, i think yoshi can even be advantaged against puff lol. PUFF IS ***, YALL SHOULD KNOW!!!

that's my 2 cents

aw yee quoting myself so that people can read on the new page and be enlightened yayuhz.

always saddening when you make a long post that ends up being last. LOL

 

[Blistering Speed]

New tactic for demoting Yoshi's potential: It's just because PAL Yoshi's so much better. Brilliant.

Chok, watching a GF set with Yoshi doesn't grant you an in-depth knowledge of his metagame. Won't pick the wall to pieces, you're not stupid, you'll figure it out.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I wish more of my videos from Pound V were recorded... so I can give an in depth examples/performance for Yoshi (NTSC) and what I may think etc.... seems tough to prove otherwise, besides looking at results....

Leffen has Yoshi (PAL) covered pretty well it seems...

I <3 Fumi btw.. dudes an inspiration..

 

[Strong Badam]

Nawww. Powershield is good for wdash OOS, smash attacks like peach dsmash, fox usmash and marth w/e.

I love powershield wdash, it's ****.

/bored at work

...PS wavedash OoS and Up-Smash is not any faster than normal wd OoS or usmash OoS.

 

[crush]

Bad my child.

 

[Anand]

...PS wavedash OoS and Up-Smash is not any faster than normal wd OoS or usmash OoS.

Actually, I believe the usmash can come out one frame earlier, because you don't have to jump cancel. I'm not Strong Bad though, so I could be wrong (if so, please correct me).

 

[choknater]

New tactic for demoting Yoshi's potential: It's just because PAL Yoshi's so much better. Brilliant.

Chok, watching a GF set with Yoshi doesn't grant you an in-depth knowledge of his metagame. Won't pick the wall to pieces, you're not stupid, you'll figure it out.

you clearly don't understand how much i know about yoshi. i did happen to play against a dedicated yoshi main for like 2 years of my life.

watching leffen just added to what i already knew, and i am NOT "demoting" yoshi's potential by comparing the pal and ntsc yoshis.

however, i think it's really foolish of you to downplay the difference. leffen himself said that yoshi was the most buffed character in the pal version, and i think yoshi is VERY low tier in ntsc.

if you think that version differences don't make that big a difference, just look at sheik and ganon. sheik's dthrow nerf is GIGANTIC. ganon's strength nerf makes him nearly unviable in pal.

 

[leffen]

I don't think Yoshi falls that much in tier list-however, he has a much harder time winning tournaments (the characters around him are also affected by the changes).

And ganon's fair being weak is so unrelevant... he has a much easier time winning in pal than in ntsc >_>

 

[Divinokage]

Really? Do you have proof of that?

 

[choknater]

oh. is it just ganon's fair? i thought linguini was complaining about a lot more stuff from when he went to europe. *shrug*

and yeah i think that's what i meant by yoshi losing viability. the other characters just have stronger tools which make it harder for him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser has a broken ledge game in perfect play that gives him a 1 frame window to land onstage and still do actions or something like that if the opponent goes to steal the edge. It has very little to do with the Fortress.

ICs cannot be fully invulnerable in perfect play in the same way Bowser can be.

This discussion has been played out before, with people much more knowledgeable about perfect play than you or I. Please do not bring it up, there's absolutely no point to discussing it in this thread because of how vastly different human potential and TAS potential are. Most MUs in perfect play basically boil down to stalemates anyway.

No problem, I just wanted a reason. No point being told I'm wrong if I'm not going to learn as much as I can from my mistake.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I wanna know how i'd do with Yoshi (PAL) at a tourney... we should play PAL here you guys... <3

/character favoritism

 

[Strong Badam]

Actually, I believe the usmash can come out one frame earlier, because you don't have to jump cancel. I'm not Strong Bad though, so I could be wrong (if so, please correct me).

You're correct, but 1 frame difference is kind of negligible compared to PS -> jab coming out 16 frames faster than dropping a shield -> jab.

 

[choknater]

haha vman, just keep getting better. i think we could all learn from leffen's sets

 

[V3ctorMan]

haha vman, just keep getting better. i think we could all learn from leffen's sets

Haha, I agree.. I wasn't surprised on any of Leffen's choices actually, many of them he had learned, taken from my textbook anyway.. If anything he's learned from me. and doing very well very quickly. I have high hopes for him..

Me atm, I'm doin the Roy thing, soon afterwards i'll go back...

 

[choknater]

roy is trash! just play yoshi

 

[crush]

Roy is a great character,its just the roy boards is a bunch of scrubby 15 year old nintendo fanboys who never change their opinions about anything regarding roy.

This reminds me of when I made serious posts its all the roy boards fault.

 

[Zoler]

Really? Do you have proof of that?

That would be obvious if you knew all of the changes.

Fox and Sheik gets way worse (bad ganon matchups). Marth gets worse.

Ganon is better in PAL, I'd say every character is except sheik, marth and fox? (marth might also be better in PAL due to the better sheik and fox matchups)

 

[Strong Badam]

ganons fair and dair were nerfed in PAL

 

[crush]

What frame does your frame data come out on strong bad?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That would be obvious if you knew all of the changes.

Fox and Sheik gets way worse (bad ganon matchups). Marth gets worse.

Ganon is better in PAL, I'd say every character is except sheik, marth and fox? (marth might also be better in PAL due to the better sheik and fox matchups)

Fox and Sheik are the only characters who are worse in PAL. Marth's two worst match-ups are made easier, making his spike nerf not as bad.

 

[leffen]

Vectorman, I'm just gonna be honest here.
Saying that I took things from your "textbook" is hilarious and very wrong.

I didn't really "learn" from you at all. Your Yoshi have zero bracket sets recorded of you winning, and I havent been watching your friendly sets with Axe for so long.
You also did no informative/innovative posts, while I from day one posted shield pressure data, new techniques I came up with and so on. I really tried to get more reason to your playstyle than "it just works" but you never gave me one.
To think that I would copy things out of a few unserious friendlies, videos of you losing at locals and a combo video rather than just coming up with it myself is stupid, which is the reason I to why I basically didn't learn anything from you.


I may use some staple combos that you also do, but I didn't take them from you. I found _everything_ myself, I took some advice from Armada and did what he did for peach, I tried every option for every situation versus every character and I formed my playstyle around that.
However, just like all falcos use lasers and downair to shine of course I'm gonna do similar things...that doesn't mean I learned them from you, and it certainly doesn't mean that I haven't developed them more and that I don't use them better.
I also do a lot of things that you have yet to implement and you know this, implying that you have nothing to learn is ridiculous.


At first I certainly tried to watch your videos, and to this day I still do, in hope of being impressed, I still do. However, all I can see is just bad moves and overall lackluster play no matter how hard I look.
I later just realized how stupid this really was. I remembered Armada saying something along the lines of "I really never watched any other Peach player, and when I did/do, I'm just thoroughly disappointed".

It really fit exactly for me, and it still does. Watching the only tournament set I can find of you winning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In04D5glcNY) I can't help but feeling disgusted. All I can see is abysmal combos, roll spamming, a ******** falco, bad tech skill, a slow and gimmicky playstyle with zero good combos.
I really wish I could be less cynical/real, and just find loads of things that I haven't thought of but I simply cannot.
It just came down to me realizing a long time ago that, for all intents and purposes, I should really just view you as randomfoxmain1231 don't wanna keep getting frustrated when watching your videos.

Randomfoxmain1341 may be a great guy (and you really are), but when I watch you play I don't expect anything new or useful (this doesn't mean that I'm never happily suprised however) and when people compare us I just have a hard time taking it seriously.

I know that you are probably gonna be insulted and think that I am just hating on you, but I hope that you understand that I'm not trying to be mean or to insult you. For all I know, you could be much better than me ( even though I heavily doubt it at this moment) but I'm just not gonna lie and pretend like I view you as a teacher, a rival, a great inspiration or even as a equally good Yoshi player because that just isn't true for me.
I hope that you will go back to Yoshi asap and learn me lots of stuff but so far, you haven't done it.


/random rant post, sorry

 

[choknater]

hehe leffen, a good yoshi player but kind of a butt!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm just sad that Armada finds none of us to be worth anything at all.

 

[Wake]

I'm just sad that Armada finds none of us to be worth anything at all.

haha Actually, in the Peach boards quite a while back Vanz posted a bit of frustration about being compared to Armada, and Armada posted something like "Don't worry, you're awesome" or something like that.

 

[choknater]

lol, yeah i'm sure it's nothing personal at all. he just knows that he would make better decisions

 

[Strife]

Hey Leffen you say that Yoshi is a lot better in PAL than he is in NSTC, does that mean you won't be maining Yoshi at Apex?

 

[john!]

i was wondering how long it would take for the "you are my pupil" attitude to get under his skin

he's too cocky for that

 

[V3ctorMan]

Vectorman, I'm just gonna be honest here.
Saying that I took things from your "textbook" is hilarious and very wrong.

I didn't really "learn" from you at all. Your Yoshi have zero bracket sets recorded of you winning, and I havent been watching your friendly sets with Axe for so long.
You also did no informative/innovative posts, while I from day one posted shield pressure data, new techniques I came up with and so on. I really tried to get more reason to your playstyle than "it just works" but you never gave me one.
To think that I would copy things out of a few unserious friendlies, videos of you losing at locals and a combo video rather than just coming up with it myself is stupid, which is the reason I to why I basically didn't learn anything from you.


I may use some staple combos that you also do, but I didn't take them from you. I found _everything_ myself, I took some advice from Armada and did what he did for peach, I tried every option for every situation versus every character and I formed my playstyle around that.
However, just like all falcos use lasers and downair to shine of course I'm gonna do similar things...that doesn't mean I learned them from you, and it certainly doesn't mean that I haven't developed them more and that I don't use them better.
I also do a lot of things that you have yet to implement and you know this, implying that you have nothing to learn is ridiculous.


At first I certainly tried to watch your videos, and to this day I still do, in hope of being impressed, I still do. However, all I can see is just bad moves and overall lackluster play no matter how hard I look.
I later just realized how stupid this really was. I remembered Armada saying something along the lines of "I really never watched any other Peach player, and when I did/do, I'm just thoroughly disappointed".

It really fit exactly for me, and it still does. Watching the only tournament set I can find of you winning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In04D5glcNY) I can't help but feeling disgusted. All I can see is abysmal combos, roll spamming, a ******** falco, bad tech skill, a slow and gimmicky playstyle with zero good combos.
I really wish I could be less cynical/real, and just find loads of things that I haven't thought of but I simply cannot.
It just came down to me realizing a long time ago that, for all intents and purposes, I should really just view you as randomfoxmain1231 don't wanna keep getting frustrated when watching your videos.

Randomfoxmain1341 may be a great guy (and you really are), but when I watch you play I don't expect anything new or useful (this doesn't mean that I'm never happily suprised however) and when people compare us I just have a hard time taking it seriously.

I know that you are probably gonna be insulted and think that I am just hating on you, but I hope that you understand that I'm not trying to be mean or to insult you. For all I know, you could be much better than me ( even though I heavily doubt it at this moment) but I'm just not gonna lie and pretend like I view you as a teacher, a rival, a great inspiration or even as a equally good Yoshi player because that just isn't true for me.
I hope that you will go back to Yoshi asap and learn me lots of stuff but so far, you haven't done it.


/random rant post, sorry

Hahaha, that set, good times... and also Mooseeatsbear, fine say that he's not as good as I was/or many other players but hey he's learning, and getting better no need to insult him... but i'm glad he at least did what he could. Most players nowadays have a "give up" mentality...

On my behalf, make fun of me all you want.. (as I agree with you) Definetely not the best I've played...many errors on my part, many mistakes, that I didn't mean at all... (F-throw, Bthrow, bad parries lol many things), but we all play bad.. either way i'm not gonna john or make up anything why I played, the way I did... Not in my persona... Many of your videos, I wonder what you're doing, myself...and as you say all the time.. (I wasn't playing my best, I dropped combos, edgeguards etc) you say these things in all of your videos) whether it's true or not, serves no "real" purpose.. You say them for every video you release... If i played the way I wanted in every video I made/released... or heck if any PLAYER played the way they played perfectly, we'd prolly have some scary looking stuff... Sadly, playing perfectly the way we want each game, is just not going to happen (we all should know this)

Either way the comparisons between, us, can't be compared either.. Your version of Melee, Yoshi has options, situations, that i'll never be able to even dream of.. just because of version differences...

In theory your videos BETTER be better than mine.. you have a better character for your version of the game... and will have opportunities that i'll never even get to fathom.

As for saying, why i did this, why I do that, or whatever in my videos say what you want, I understand what you're saying, and if you say you're not trying to insult then fine... As for your "I've always done this, that's cool too, but don't make it like, you felt it was "always the best options" because I can just go back to my thread, and find post(s) of what you thought i did was bad/unsmart, and I see now, you're USING these same things, that you were once criticizing me for... (that's also wrong) but it's cool. it's nothing i'm not already used to..

At the end of the day, idc if you hate me, like me, learned/didn't learn from me. Honestly it doesn't matter... I still have the results at a national.. if you feel you're beyond my abilities like you claim you are... then do what I had to do, and prove it.. Get similar/better results than I did with Yoshi (NTSC), and I'll understand where you come from...

Can it be done (NTSC)? sure I did it... Do I think you can do it? of course. i have faith in everyone with the right mindset/mentality.. Do I think you will do it, prove me/everyone else wrong... I don't. I don't think you understand Yoshi (NTSC) enough. not to mention, you're coming all the way from Sweden, I can't imagine how much your tickets probably cost... 4 digits im presuming? For you to play a significant worse character in our version, when you still want to show the world your abilities.. I just can't see you keeping your promise...of going all Yoshi, w/o fear of failure... knowing what you paid to also get here... the risk/reward variables aren't in your advantage if you decide to go Yoshi, when I did it, I didn't have to pay as much, and had help from people to get me over there...

but what do I know right? prove me wrong...
until you do, you have no right (technically) to say that I'm not a good representative/inspiration for Yoshi etc... because who else has done it? or more accurately (confident enough to try it and be successful) Don't forget the Yoshi's before us as well... Fumi, the biggest one, but there's Mind Trick, Yoshiiscool, Bloshi, Yoshido, Gabe, Nogzors, there are many. (and I know many more that i've missed, but i can't think of at the top of my head) sorry guys..

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can't believe we sponsored Mango instead of you for BAM2K11

You are so nice, even when you get insulted

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

Vman vs Leffen Yoshi ditto MM?

 

[AXE 09]

Vectorman, I'm just gonna be honest here.
Saying that I took things from your "textbook" is hilarious and very wrong.

I didn't really "learn" from you at all. Your Yoshi have zero bracket sets recorded of you winning, and I havent been watching your friendly sets with Axe for so long.
You also did no informative/innovative posts, while I from day one posted shield pressure data, new techniques I came up with and so on. I really tried to get more reason to your playstyle than "it just works" but you never gave me one.
To think that I would copy things out of a few unserious friendlies, videos of you losing at locals and a combo video rather than just coming up with it myself is stupid, which is the reason I to why I basically didn't learn anything from you.


I may use some staple combos that you also do, but I didn't take them from you. I found _everything_ myself, I took some advice from Armada and did what he did for peach, I tried every option for every situation versus every character and I formed my playstyle around that.
However, just like all falcos use lasers and downair to shine of course I'm gonna do similar things...that doesn't mean I learned them from you, and it certainly doesn't mean that I haven't developed them more and that I don't use them better.
I also do a lot of things that you have yet to implement and you know this, implying that you have nothing to learn is ridiculous.


At first I certainly tried to watch your videos, and to this day I still do, in hope of being impressed, I still do. However, all I can see is just bad moves and overall lackluster play no matter how hard I look.
I later just realized how stupid this really was. I remembered Armada saying something along the lines of "I really never watched any other Peach player, and when I did/do, I'm just thoroughly disappointed".

It really fit exactly for me, and it still does. Watching the only tournament set I can find of you winning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In04D5glcNY) I can't help but feeling disgusted. All I can see is abysmal combos, roll spamming, a ******** falco, bad tech skill, a slow and gimmicky playstyle with zero good combos.
I really wish I could be less cynical/real, and just find loads of things that I haven't thought of but I simply cannot.
It just came down to me realizing a long time ago that, for all intents and purposes, I should really just view you as randomfoxmain1231 don't wanna keep getting frustrated when watching your videos.

Randomfoxmain1341 may be a great guy (and you really are), but when I watch you play I don't expect anything new or useful (this doesn't mean that I'm never happily suprised however) and when people compare us I just have a hard time taking it seriously.

I know that you are probably gonna be insulted and think that I am just hating on you, but I hope that you understand that I'm not trying to be mean or to insult you. For all I know, you could be much better than me ( even though I heavily doubt it at this moment) but I'm just not gonna lie and pretend like I view you as a teacher, a rival, a great inspiration or even as a equally good Yoshi player because that just isn't true for me.
I hope that you will go back to Yoshi asap and learn me lots of stuff but so far, you haven't done it.


/random rant post, sorry

Alright man seriously, Vman deserves a lot more credit than what you're giving him.

Not only is he an amazingly inspirational and extremely talented Yoshi player, but he's also a very nice/kind hearted person and my best friend. It's not cool for you to treat him the way you do.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Goodness, Vectorman...keeping it positive. We need more mindsets like this.

 

[crush]

Makes me wonder where exactly AZ Anger comes from lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pTVhtIawbQ

 

[~Twitch~]

holy crap Vman and leffen are almost complete opposites.

in fact their only real similarity is that they play(ed) yoshi...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

yo vman u seem like u might be to nice of person.

also i am going to get on trying to get new mu threads made but I will get to this after I take care of some stuff in real life. so idk maybe some time next week

 

[choknater]

vman's kindness *****

that's why he has more fans.

 

[Varist]

vman makes the world a better place.

but his ellipses make it a more annoying one.