choknater
Smash Obsessed
LMAO varist goin' in.
problem?
problem?
-
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I was "there" from day 1. V3ctorman 4 LYFE!! lol
Dam leffen, lol. I ain't even mad, just make sure u put in some ntsc yoshi work next time u come to the US.
Dam leffen, lol. I ain't even mad, just make sure u put in some ntsc yoshi work next time u come to the US.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
16 frames faster? Broken!!!
bolt.
Smash Ace
I know yoshi's weight is heavier in pal, but what does that allow him to do that you can't do in ntsc?
AXE 09
Smash Master
I think I was there from day 1 hahaha ;DI was "there" from day 1. V3ctorman 4 LYFE!! lol
Kaostar =) Vman ^^ Grim Tuesday 
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Grim Tuesday>_>
<_<
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Better crouch cancel, better double jump crouch cancel, and better survivability.
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Dang, what the heck did I miss?
**goes back to read**
As a fore warning, I may restate some things said from the past 4 or 5 pages.
First off, these your matches vs. pepito are great, leffen. You had an amazing display of parrying, tech chases, jab resets, DJ gimmicks, and general yoshi play that shows off yoshi, but also your own yoshi abilities. Hopefully this, at least, stops any future doubts of your yoshi.
Im also a little shocked at the differences between PAL and NTSC yoshi. I Did not think they were that large (especially seeing the higher damage threshold for breaking yoshi‘s DJ), but I digress. My main point of concern pertaining to your recent matches vs. pepito is your claim of his knowledge of the match-up.
After watching the matches, there were some general instances, which I will point out, that may show some lack of knowledge on pepito’s part. If I’m mistaken please share your thoughts.
- In general, Pepito’s falco somewhat failed to edge guard yoshi properly. I saw attempts to simply f-smash or b-air yoshi (at low percents), rather than a shine, or waiting for yoshi’s DJ to end and reacting properly ( either by reaching the end of the jump or you canceling it).
- Lots of missed techs from getting hit by eggs/nairs/fairs/f-tilt/u-tilt leads to jab reset/heavy punish (though these could be mistakes, falco should try to minimize something so important since they avoid combo starters)
- Smash DI / crouch cancel to tech: Pepito missed a lot of these when he was hit by F-tilts/u-tilts and simply dropped to the ground, rather that teching/techrolling.
- A larger mix up of high lasers along with low/mid would keep yoshi grounded/with limited movement and perhaps bait out an attempt to reflect/parry them, rather than doing mostly low lasers (which is what I saw)
- illusion cancels: this is more of a recovery that falco does in general but it would have greatly helped to avoid all the d-smash hits while going for the ledge (by throwing off your timing)
- Needs more overall use of anti-yoshi defense: falco has moves that can show down/ outspace much of what yoshi has to offer (namely his U-tilt). While pepito used it a few times, it really could have been utilized much more to shut down some of yoshi’s close-quarter movements/approaches.
- breaking out of egg lay: I noticed Pepito had trouble with egg lay (the 2 or 3 time it hit) and was unable to break out in time or could not wavedash out. (it could be mistakes, but as with the missed techs, I would think, being very experience against yoshi, he would not have a problem)
- quick use of do: Just as a note, Pepito used his Double jump rather quickly in dangerous situations multiple times. I would expect more caution of this, but perhaps you massively outplayed him. (although you stated that he is a better player, otherwise)
I bring these points up not based of theory, but because I play against falco players (who are experts vs. the yoshi matchups) who pull these tactics off successfully, making my win that much more difficult.
Don’t get me wrong, I see pepito as a great player, but I feel you may have exaggerated his matchup knowledge/ability.
Perhaps the PAL/NTSC differences null some of my points? I’m really not sure.
Regardless of all of this, Leffen, your yoshi is no joke, no doubt. Really awesome to see these videos. Here’s hoping for more!
**goes back to read**
As a fore warning, I may restate some things said from the past 4 or 5 pages.
First off, these your matches vs. pepito are great, leffen. You had an amazing display of parrying, tech chases, jab resets, DJ gimmicks, and general yoshi play that shows off yoshi, but also your own yoshi abilities. Hopefully this, at least, stops any future doubts of your yoshi.
Im also a little shocked at the differences between PAL and NTSC yoshi. I Did not think they were that large (especially seeing the higher damage threshold for breaking yoshi‘s DJ), but I digress. My main point of concern pertaining to your recent matches vs. pepito is your claim of his knowledge of the match-up.
After watching the matches, there were some general instances, which I will point out, that may show some lack of knowledge on pepito’s part. If I’m mistaken please share your thoughts.
- In general, Pepito’s falco somewhat failed to edge guard yoshi properly. I saw attempts to simply f-smash or b-air yoshi (at low percents), rather than a shine, or waiting for yoshi’s DJ to end and reacting properly ( either by reaching the end of the jump or you canceling it).
- Lots of missed techs from getting hit by eggs/nairs/fairs/f-tilt/u-tilt leads to jab reset/heavy punish (though these could be mistakes, falco should try to minimize something so important since they avoid combo starters)
- Smash DI / crouch cancel to tech: Pepito missed a lot of these when he was hit by F-tilts/u-tilts and simply dropped to the ground, rather that teching/techrolling.
- A larger mix up of high lasers along with low/mid would keep yoshi grounded/with limited movement and perhaps bait out an attempt to reflect/parry them, rather than doing mostly low lasers (which is what I saw)
- illusion cancels: this is more of a recovery that falco does in general but it would have greatly helped to avoid all the d-smash hits while going for the ledge (by throwing off your timing)
- Needs more overall use of anti-yoshi defense: falco has moves that can show down/ outspace much of what yoshi has to offer (namely his U-tilt). While pepito used it a few times, it really could have been utilized much more to shut down some of yoshi’s close-quarter movements/approaches.
- breaking out of egg lay: I noticed Pepito had trouble with egg lay (the 2 or 3 time it hit) and was unable to break out in time or could not wavedash out. (it could be mistakes, but as with the missed techs, I would think, being very experience against yoshi, he would not have a problem)
- quick use of do: Just as a note, Pepito used his Double jump rather quickly in dangerous situations multiple times. I would expect more caution of this, but perhaps you massively outplayed him. (although you stated that he is a better player, otherwise)
I bring these points up not based of theory, but because I play against falco players (who are experts vs. the yoshi matchups) who pull these tactics off successfully, making my win that much more difficult.
Don’t get me wrong, I see pepito as a great player, but I feel you may have exaggerated his matchup knowledge/ability.
Perhaps the PAL/NTSC differences null some of my points? I’m really not sure.
Regardless of all of this, Leffen, your yoshi is no joke, no doubt. Really awesome to see these videos. Here’s hoping for more!
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Nice post Nog'z. However, people are overrating the difference between PAL + NTSC Yoshi (as in, the character in a vacuum), the big difference is in the other characters, namely Fox and Sheik, and how that effects their respective matchups with him.
That's my last post regarding Yoshi, I only did it because it sparks so much aggravated debate (for some unknown reason).
Official BS 2011 NTSC Tier List
Fox/Falco
Puff
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Ice Climbers
Falcon
Go-go-gadget discussion of higher tier characters and their entirely subjective ranking.
That's my last post regarding Yoshi, I only did it because it sparks so much aggravated debate (for some unknown reason).
Official BS 2011 NTSC Tier List
Fox/Falco
Puff
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Ice Climbers
Falcon
Go-go-gadget discussion of higher tier characters and their entirely subjective ranking.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think non-CG with Ganon is bad because Sheik has a really strong, complicated combo tree. Ganon doesn't. His combos out of throw w/o CG will be like 20% whereas she can go 30%-death real easily (there's an important combo option that become available at 30% and ruins his DI efforts).
I also think it robs Ganon of a retardedly good onstage punish. Stand > CG until you can't anymore > aerial / up smash / f-smash is really strong against her recovery. Grabs being faster than his dair and whatever also make for an easier edgeguard to actually execute, which is dandy.
I dunno.
"NO CG" seems stupid to me. Ganon isn't good at winning the long term, he's better at winning by killing people for no reason. He's gonna die for no reason because he's Ganon. You need that power to remain on better-footing.
I also think it robs Ganon of a retardedly good onstage punish. Stand > CG until you can't anymore > aerial / up smash / f-smash is really strong against her recovery. Grabs being faster than his dair and whatever also make for an easier edgeguard to actually execute, which is dandy.
I dunno.
"NO CG" seems stupid to me. Ganon isn't good at winning the long term, he's better at winning by killing people for no reason. He's gonna die for no reason because he's Ganon. You need that power to remain on better-footing.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i still say pal ntsc makes a big diff for yoshi lol
VA
Smash Hero
Yes yes yes. I agree.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
yeah, idk much about the specifics of ganon/sheik, but this is my logic from a strategic perspective. ganon loses more on the margins when chaingrabbing is soft banned b/c his other options are much worse.
i think this concept applies to all characters w/tough matchups (or to any game/competition where one side is at a large disadvantage). most people naturally want to "keep it close" in unfavorable matchups/situations b/c they want to give themselves a chance, so they play (too) conservatively imo. that may decrease the likelihood of getting curbstomped, but it may also decrease the likelihood of winning
VA
Smash Hero
I think its a case of weapons. I really see this as a strong way of analysing characters. These are the things that hurt you in a match up and relate directly to the characters. It's sort of like the combo tree that KK was talking about.
Not using CG as Ganon is discarding one of your biggest weapons against Sheik and this really worsens the MU as you can't punish her as hard. It's like not using CC shine as Falco because it's cheap as **** for setting up large combos on Sheik.
You should see the terror in the eyes of UK Sheik mains when Swizzy grabs them. Honestly, not only will he kill you when you grab him but he's inhumanly good at timing grabs too. It elevates him beyond his actual ability as a player in terms of knowledge and the rest becaues he has a weapon with ganondorf that exploits a weakness in those inhabiting that middle spectrum level of play (bountiful in the UK).
Not using CG as Ganon is discarding one of your biggest weapons against Sheik and this really worsens the MU as you can't punish her as hard. It's like not using CC shine as Falco because it's cheap as **** for setting up large combos on Sheik.
You should see the terror in the eyes of UK Sheik mains when Swizzy grabs them. Honestly, not only will he kill you when you grab him but he's inhumanly good at timing grabs too. It elevates him beyond his actual ability as a player in terms of knowledge and the rest becaues he has a weapon with ganondorf that exploits a weakness in those inhabiting that middle spectrum level of play (bountiful in the UK).
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ganon doesn't have Sheik's up tilt, uair, and dash attack as substitutes for regrab.
VA
Smash Hero
Ganon must grab sheik as much as is possible. Swizzy did it to Amsah in a doubles match. I squealed like a pig as usual.
He sometimes gets 80+ hit percentage in matches, it nearly always ends in usmash. SWIZZtastic.
He sometimes gets 80+ hit percentage in matches, it nearly always ends in usmash. SWIZZtastic.
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Hey guyz, it would be nice of u to stop thinking there is THAT MUCH difference beetween PAL & NTSC.
Yoshi doesn't have big differences in PAL (I can remember fsmash being a little better and dair being a little less good, plus maybe he's a little heavier in PAL ?) and even if ur talking about some top tiers being a little nerfed giving more advantages to Yoshi u can't be more wrong.
Yoshi still sucks in PAL, maybe a tiny little less than NTSC, but he still sucks A LOT.
That being said, I don't understand the bashing Leffen gave Vman.
Vman is an inspiration for all Yoshi mainers 'round here, and if he never had high ranking in big tournaments, it's simply because he doesn't have the level right now. I don't see the shame in that, and even if it was important, I still don't see how it can be relevant about the fact he's an inspiration or not.
As for myself, I don't know either of you, but every European smasher I talked about Leffen with told me the same thing : he's an annoying person. (I'm not judging, I don't know you, I'm repeating what 10+ ppl said to me)
And please people u need to tell him that his Yoshi is way less good lookin' than Vman's.
I watched one of your Yoshi vids last week Leffen, one of the video from the tournament u said you will go all Yoshi, even though u didn't in the end, and I must say your Yoshi is everything but impressive.
Good, but far from impressive.
Yoshi doesn't have big differences in PAL (I can remember fsmash being a little better and dair being a little less good, plus maybe he's a little heavier in PAL ?) and even if ur talking about some top tiers being a little nerfed giving more advantages to Yoshi u can't be more wrong.
Yoshi still sucks in PAL, maybe a tiny little less than NTSC, but he still sucks A LOT.
That being said, I don't understand the bashing Leffen gave Vman.
Vman is an inspiration for all Yoshi mainers 'round here, and if he never had high ranking in big tournaments, it's simply because he doesn't have the level right now. I don't see the shame in that, and even if it was important, I still don't see how it can be relevant about the fact he's an inspiration or not.
As for myself, I don't know either of you, but every European smasher I talked about Leffen with told me the same thing : he's an annoying person. (I'm not judging, I don't know you, I'm repeating what 10+ ppl said to me)
And please people u need to tell him that his Yoshi is way less good lookin' than Vman's.
I watched one of your Yoshi vids last week Leffen, one of the video from the tournament u said you will go all Yoshi, even though u didn't in the end, and I must say your Yoshi is everything but impressive.
Good, but far from impressive.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Leffen's Yoshi is more impressive than Vman's imo, despite him being a massive ****head (savant?).
And Yoshi doesn't suck in PAL.
And Yoshi doesn't suck in PAL.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
PAL Yoshi doesn't have to fear Sheik death grab. This alone massively improves him.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Look at it this way,
a bad Sheik can **** Yoshi in NTSC
only a good Sheik can **** Yoshi in PAL
a bad Sheik can **** Yoshi in NTSC
only a good Sheik can **** Yoshi in PAL
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yoshi is pretty good against most of Sheik's stuff because his DJ armor and CC are effective against her weak moves. Her aerial mobility is low so WD-based spacing is pretty good against the air-spacing she engages in when encountering a crouching opponent. Needles are additionally surprisingly ineffectual because he can DJ armor through them (I think).
The only thing that works stupidly well against our beloved dinosaur is her grab. She's faster on the ground so she's good at punishing his stuff with evasion > grab type dealios. Her grab has massive range and I've grabbed many a Yoshi through their Nair when not facing backwards, and a variety of other moves. That grab leads to a death combo is awesome.
In PAL, she might be able to tech chase him.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hehe. kazemon. i just got it.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Oh wow, I didn't notice that either! 
Digimon Frontier was amazing...
Digimon Frontier was amazing...
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
As a bad Sheik player, I never lost to a good Yoshi (I play PAL).
He's getting ***** by pretty much anything Sheik can do (tilt to tilt to tilt to tilt... to **** works also XD) once ur past the crouchable %. Every **** u hit him with goes into a fair, at average/high %.
I'm not even talking about the non-existent recovery options, that remain the same in PAL version, making edgeguard sooo easy.
I was pointing the fact u NTSC players looks like your saying Yoshi is **** in PAL
He's a little better, that's a fact, but I swear this doesn't change the fact he's still wayyyy under a majority of characters.
That's all.
Edit: Saw ur post KK, u playin PAL or NTSC in Canada ?
Ur basically right, but as for myself I always saw the matchup this way : get past crouch by stacking% (tech chasing Yoshi is damn effective) and then just ****.
Then again, ur mre expericenced than me so this is just my opinion
He's getting ***** by pretty much anything Sheik can do (tilt to tilt to tilt to tilt... to **** works also XD) once ur past the crouchable %. Every **** u hit him with goes into a fair, at average/high %.
I'm not even talking about the non-existent recovery options, that remain the same in PAL version, making edgeguard sooo easy.
I was pointing the fact u NTSC players looks like your saying Yoshi is **** in PAL
He's a little better, that's a fact, but I swear this doesn't change the fact he's still wayyyy under a majority of characters.
That's all.
Edit: Saw ur post KK, u playin PAL or NTSC in Canada ?
Ur basically right, but as for myself I always saw the matchup this way : get past crouch by stacking% (tech chasing Yoshi is damn effective) and then just ****.
Then again, ur mre expericenced than me so this is just my opinion
Beat!
Smash Master
Who are these good Yoshis you play against?
(because if you're not lying about being bad for some reason, leffen would absolutely annihilate you)
(because if you're not lying about being bad for some reason, leffen would absolutely annihilate you)
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Hehe maybe my words were not the good ones, I meant good like "usually better than me".
Except Swampen back in the days, there has not been a lot of famous Yoshi in Europe
And I have no doubt Leffen will beat me.
And I'm not as bad as I used to be even though I'm far from being good.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Her Japanese name is Fairymon, but that's still appropriate to me LOL.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I play NTSC. My Yoshi experience is about 3-5 games or so with V3ctorman at Pound 5. Not exactly comprehensive, but I didn't really see anything I didn't expect in the matches (or didn't know about).As a bad Sheik player, I never lost to a good Yoshi (I play PAL).
He's getting ***** by pretty much anything Sheik can do (tilt to tilt to tilt to tilt... to **** works also XD) once ur past the crouchable %. Every **** u hit him with goes into a fair, at average/high %.
I'm not even talking about the non-existent recovery options, that remain the same in PAL version, making edgeguard sooo easy.
I was pointing the fact u NTSC players looks like your saying Yoshi is **** in PAL
He's a little better, that's a fact, but I swear this doesn't change the fact he's still wayyyy under a majority of characters.
That's all.
Edit: Saw ur post KK, u playin PAL or NTSC in Canada ?
Ur basically right, but as for myself I always saw the matchup this way : get past crouch by stacking% (tech chasing Yoshi is damn effective) and then just ****.
Then again, ur mre expericenced than me so this is just my opinion
The next bit is theory based on how her moves look in PAL. So if there are errors, please just point them out rather than freak on me.
PAL Sheik tech chases can be countered by positioning for an edgecancel. For Yoshi specifically, he can go offstage and jump back on. Sheik can't edgeguard KO him until like 90%+ or something because of DJ armor. In NTSC, we bypass this by having an automatic 90% combo on him (not an exact percent) but in PAL, you have to chip with low damage increments (like, 20-30% combos). I understand that going offstage = forfeiting a lot of positional advantage, but in NTSC we just grab > Yoshi explodes combo, which is more effective than positional abuse.
Yoshi doesn't **** in PAL. He's just much better than he is in NTSC because Sheik isn't anywhere near as bad. I don't think he's higher than top of mid tier in PAL, but that's just speculation and it's not really based off anything concrete.
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
A lot of what you say is simply not true.As a bad Sheik player, I never lost to a good Yoshi (I play PAL).
He's getting ***** by pretty much anything Sheik can do (tilt to tilt to tilt to tilt... to **** works also XD) once ur past the crouchable %. Every **** u hit him with goes into a fair, at average/high %.
I'm not even talking about the non-existent recovery options, that remain the same in PAL version, making edgeguard sooo easy.
I was pointing the fact u NTSC players looks like your saying Yoshi is **** in PAL
He's a little better, that's a fact, but I swear this doesn't change the fact he's still wayyyy under a majority of characters.
That's all.
Edit: Saw ur post KK, u playin PAL or NTSC in Canada ?
Ur basically right, but as for myself I always saw the matchup this way : get past crouch by stacking% (tech chasing Yoshi is damn effective) and then just ****.
Then again, ur mre expericenced than me so this is just my opinion
I don't think you have played a Yoshi that can DI or recover somewhat smart.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Tilts are horrible against Yoshi.
edit:
Horrible is an exaggeration, but crouch & his unique DJ mechanics make them significantly less powerful than usual.
edit:
Horrible is an exaggeration, but crouch & his unique DJ mechanics make them significantly less powerful than usual.
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Was talking past the crouch %.
Guess I have a poor english coz I have hard times trying to be understood
Yoshi's never been considered more than a low tier in PAL version also. At least, that's what I always thought.
Guess Mind Trick is right about my lack of experience.
Guess I have a poor english coz I have hard times trying to be understood
Yoshi's never been considered more than a low tier in PAL version also. At least, that's what I always thought.
Guess Mind Trick is right about my lack of experience.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If you need to wait to like 100%+ (Yoshi's CC is stupid good) for a move to good, it's possible it's not that good of a move.
Moreover, how are we doing multiple tilt combos at 100%+?
Moreover, how are we doing multiple tilt combos at 100%+?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Can't really blame you. There are like 2.
