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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

choknater

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choknater
why don't more people play yoshi?

because
1. he's bad if you have normal tech skill of an average person
2. he's good if YOU WANT TO PLAY A CHARACTER MORE TECHNICALLY DEMANDING THAN FOX
3. not enough hype behind the character for people to pick him up

even axe's placings are not enough hype for people to pick up pika. AXE, GET FIRST!!!! :)
 

choknater

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choknater
nah son you're going blind

guys


the more i think about ic's vs puff, the more i think it is in ic's favor lol. 75:25 for sure.
 

♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡

Anti-Illuminati
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Haha, I agree.. I wasn't surprised on any of Leffen's choices actually, many of them he had learned, taken from my textbook anyway.. If anything he's learned from me. and doing very well very quickly. :p I have high hopes for him..

This was a stupid post and deserved a rant
 

choknater

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haha yea

one time i said "i taught hmw how to play" and then he reacted pretty defensively that i did not

however i later realized that i worded that poorly. i trained him a lot with a lot of matches, but i didnt teach him how to play. the best wording is "we trained together a lot"
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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I never pictured this matchup as a hard one for Sheik.
Guess I never played good Yoshis then -_-
I think it's more awkward than difficult. Needles, bair, fair, grab, & proper shielding will probably beat Yoshi just like it does in NTSC. Only difference is, you need like 6x as many grabs in PAL.
 

ShroudedOne

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Sometimes, I think that Falcon should be above Peach on the tier list. But then I remember the spacie MUs...still, as far as character traits go, are we sure that he isn't better than her? (I know, I know, Armada, but still)
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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If you're going by their physical traits, i think falcon's a lot cuter than peach.

falcon can kill easier than peach, seems to rack up damage faster, can punish better, bla bla. blugurgugh.

I think it's reeeeeealllly even though. peach really allows the player to exercise their mental skill though, so i think peach is better. and it sucks knowing that every grab you got with Falcon could've been shined. iunno, peach just feels better. but i don't play her. recycled opinions aqui.
 

KirbyKaze

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Peach's passive resistance to a lot of common combos & combo starters is really useful against space animals. She's also way better out of shield, which is relevant against characters that try to make you block via fast moves & pressure strings.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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Just like Novice said, that post really deserved a rant.

On my behalf, make fun of me all you want.. (as I agree with you) Definetely not the best I've played...many errors on my part, many mistakes, that I didn't mean at all... (F-throw, Bthrow, bad parries lol many things), but we all play bad.. either way i'm not gonna john or make up anything why I played, the way I did... Not in my persona... Many of your videos, I wonder what you're doing, myself...and as you say all the time.. (I wasn't playing my best, I dropped combos, edgeguards etc) you say these things in all of your videos) whether it's true or not, serves no "real" purpose.. You say them for every video you release... If i played the way I wanted in every video I made/released... or heck if any PLAYER played the way they played perfectly, we'd prolly have some scary looking stuff... Sadly, playing perfectly the way we want each game, is just not going to happen (we all should know this)
Please stop comparing us, I'm not saying that my vids are better to watch if you want to learn or anything like that. I just said that the very few sets you lose all of them except for this one and because of the large amounts of bad play etc in this and your other sets you can honestly not learn much...
This is why you saying that I took everything from you is hilarious, since I don't play anywhere like how you did in that video or like your other tournament set videos and you never do informative posts or critique or anything like that.

Either way the comparisons between, us, can't be compared either.. Your version of Melee, Yoshi has options, situations, that i'll never be able to even dream of.. just because of version differences..

In theory your videos BETTER be better than mine.. you have a better character for your version of the game... and will have opportunities that i'll never even get to fathom.
The falco matchup is barely changed at all fyi (every fundamental aspect is identical except that Yoshi lives a little longer)... I'm playing NTSC some nowadays to prepare for Apex and I can honestly say that the spacies+marth+CF+puff don't really change at all in how they are played, you just have to try a tiny bit harder just like Fox has to in PAL. The things that change are just the results of you getting hit being worse at times, it doesn't allow Yoshi for any new magical option, his combos, parries, spacing and baiting game is more or less identical.
If you honestly thing that I'm shallow enough to simply take the result of the match as proof then you're dead wrong.

and overall, as I said, I really don't care how we compare.

you felt it was "always the best options" because I can just go back to my thread, and find post(s) of what you thought i did was bad/unsmart, and I see now, you're USING these same things, that you were once criticizing me for...
I would be happy if you could search those up, because I'd like to hear the disadvantages of what I do. Also, I never said I knew what was the best from the start, and I obviously still don't know everything there is to know about Yoshi.
I have no shame in admitting that I have stated that I didn't like X thing used by Y character at the time but that I later changed my mind
.
At the end of the day, idc if you hate me, like me, learned/didn't learn from me. Honestly it doesn't matter... I still have the results at a national.. if you feel you're beyond my abilities like you claim you are... then do what I had to do, and prove it.. Get similar/better results than I did with Yoshi (NTSC), and I'll understand where you come from...


until you do, you have no right (technically) to say that I'm not a good representative/inspiration for Yoshi
Sorry, but this is just plain ridiculous. This is so stereotype american that I almost wanna be serious with my american hate for once.
HOW can you think that the only thing that is relevant is how you do at pools in ONE tournament, that happened almost a year ago. You didn't defeat ANYONE who was notable at the time and you barely made it out with bottom seed and went 0-2 in bracket, and this is when facing people with zero Yoshi experience.

Except for Pound 5, where are your results? Afaik the only thing you got is placing in the bottom of tiny AZ locals, going 0-2 in bracket while I have won 3 regionals back to back since I started maining him.
Yet it is my duty to "PROVE" myself, even though you dont even play Yoshi anymore.

I don't wanna be this blunt and mean but when you act like the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is a couple of pool wins I cannot honestly say that you deserve any better.


Oh, and I never said that you weren't a good "representative/inspiration" for Yoshi/low tiers/whatever, I just said that you weren't one from me. Your importance in the Yoshi/Smash scene is undeniable, I'm not saying anything about that, You're just basically saying:
"oh hey you play falco, YOUR INSPIRATION COMES FROM THE GREAT DASHIZWIZ AND YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING UNLESS YOU PERFORM BETTER THEN HIM"



Again, I'm not trying to put you down or to cause you any harm, I have no reason to.
However, I don't like it when you go around and imply that NTSC nationals is the only thing that matters and that I've stolen everything I do from you.

I'm gonna reply to the other posts later, I just wanted to post this so that I can get flamed at before the constructive talk begins.


EDIT: Yes, I'm obviously a ****ing douche online. Stating that won't do ****, I am well aware and I can promise you, that I'm much nicer in real life. I just find spending ****loads of time sugar coating and to keep repeating common sense things that everyone agrees with a waste of time and it is done all the time here (Hi Umbreon)
 

Winston

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Sometimes, I think that Falcon should be above Peach on the tier list. But then I remember the spacie MUs...still, as far as character traits go, are we sure that he isn't better than her? (I know, I know, Armada, but still)
First you have to figure out why having "better character traits" justifies a higher placing if his important matchups are worse.

I'm not sure about their ordering myself, but to oversimplify things, I think + Falco + ICs - Marth - Falcon is enough to give Peach the higher spot. I don't think either have any unwinnable matchups among the top/high tiers.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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@Leffen+Novice - I will apologize, for having poor word choice(s) in my post, about him (Leffen) I simply felt offended, that I saw similar aspects of our game(s) that I was once criticized for, now being used, by him. It made me feel as if "oh he can use, but I can't, ya know? Either way, I didn't intend the wording to be like that.. and I apologize to Leffen, etc for that..(on the "textbook" comment)

@Leffen, I'm not gonna search/find those post(s) It's honestly fine, It's ok to have a change of heart on selections/choices. Also like I said, it's nothing I haven't already been through.. (Remember when the thread first opened) I'm quite used to this now...

As for my behalf, you had put something, along of, "it's crazy" I have nothing to learn off of you... Well blunt truth is I don't.. :) Your matches are amazing, but there isn't anything, I already haven't seen, or don't know about.. I guess technically I get to learn how Pepito plays, if i ever get the chance to play him. Either way, you're doing amazing Leffen.

As for my tourney results chat, you're correct, (recency) and incorrect (relevance) but I'm not gonna explain, it shoudl be common sense. It's been a while, (but I'm sure I could do it again) I won't comment on I've beaten no notable players either, no need to. I already know, and they do too.. Also don't get it twisted, I STILL play Yoshi, I'm doing Roy atm, to hopefully motivate other players as well...and will prolly return to Mewtwo as well since Taj has left us ;( but still, my Yoshi still in tip/top shape. :)

And yes Leffen, I know your much nicer irl. etc, you're a very cool dude. :)

Either way, I hope the Yoshi discussion helps other players, bring up Yoshi in the tier list..:)
Great discussion everyone!! n_n
 

Jackie

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Jan 4, 2011
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Tucson, AZ
@Leffen+Novice - I will apologize, for having poor word choice(s) in my post, about him (Leffen) I simply felt offended, that I saw similar aspects of our game(s) that I was once criticized for, now being used, by him. It made me feel as if "oh he can use, but I can't, ya know? Either way, I didn't intend the wording to be like that.. and I apologize to Leffen, etc for that..(on the "textbook" comment)

@Leffen, I'm not gonna search/find those post(s) It's honestly fine, It's ok to have a change of heart on selections/choices. Also like I said, it's nothing I haven't already been through.. (Remember when the thread first opened) I'm quite used to this now...

As for my behalf, you had put something, along of, "it's crazy" I have nothing to learn off of you... Well blunt truth is I don't.. :) Your matches are amazing, but there isn't anything, I already haven't seen, or don't know about.. I guess technically I get to learn how Pepito plays, if i ever get the chance to play him. Either way, you're doing amazing Leffen.

As for my tourney results chat, you're correct, (recency) and incorrect (relevance) but I'm not gonna explain, it shoudl be common sense. It's been a while, (but I'm sure I could do it again) I won't comment on I've beaten no notable players either, no need to. I already know, and they do too.. Also don't get it twisted, I STILL play Yoshi, I'm doing Roy atm, to hopefully motivate other players as well...and will prolly return to Mewtwo as well since Taj has left us ;( but still, my Yoshi still in tip/top shape. :)

And yes Leffen, I know your much nicer irl. etc, you're a very cool dude. :)

Either way, I hope the Yoshi discussion helps other players, bring up Yoshi in the tier list..:)
Great discussion everyone!! n_n
So many ellipses. Do you talk like that wheelchair kid from Malcolm in the Middle in real life?

Anyways, I'm not sure why DK is so high considering the lack of placings.

:phone:
 

Spyro

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even axe's placings are not enough hype for people to pick up pika. AXE, GET FIRST!!!! :)
This is why we need more low-tier tournaments; we need to develop the lower tiered characters. It’s sad how far behind some characters are in the metagame. People will almost always pick maining Fox over let's say DK.
 

Divinokage

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This is why we need more low-tier tournaments; we need to develop the lower tiered characters. It’s sad how far behind some characters are in the metagame. People will almost always pick maining Fox over let's say DK.
Why is this sad? Picking Fox is the right choice. lol.
 

The Star King

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This is why we need more low-tier tournaments; we need to develop the lower tiered characters. It’s sad how far behind some characters are in the metagame. People will almost always pick maining Fox over let's say DK.
Low tier tournaments are not going to stop people from picking top tier characters in normal ones >_>
 

Varist

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and axe is nice and cute as a button.

something in the water over there at SV. they raise 'em rite.
 

ShroudedOne

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Peach's passive resistance to a lot of common combos & combo starters is really useful against space animals. She's also way better out of shield, which is relevant against characters that try to make you block via fast moves & pressure strings.
I always forget this, that when determining who the best characters are, you have to not only look at what their moves/capabilities are, but how they react to other characters. I guess this alone is a really good argument for her being above Falcon.

First you have to figure out why having "better character traits" justifies a higher placing if his important matchups are worse.

I'm not sure about their ordering myself, but to oversimplify things, I think + Falco + ICs - Marth - Falcon is enough to give Peach the higher spot. I don't think either have any unwinnable matchups among the top/high tiers.
Yeah, she does way better against Falco than he does, and against ICs as well. But, when you put her and Falcon down on paper, she seems to be slightly worse. She has a nice recovery, and really strong moves that can be made lagless, but she doesn't have speed at all on ground, and not that much more in the air. Her combos are also a good deal more situational than his. But I dunno. It's just an idea, and not really something I can defend yet. But he has at least positive MU among the top seven.
 

KirbyKaze

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I always forget this, that when determining who the best characters are, you have to not only look at what their moves/capabilities are, but how they react to other characters. I guess this alone is a really good argument for her being above Falcon.
Yup.

Hilariously, I think the space animals are two MUs that downplay her normally good recovery to a really high degree. Obviously it's not as bad as Falcon's against them, but man is Peach shine-gimpable in some situations. And egdeguarding with Fox's up air (or up tilt > up air) often kills her at really stupid percents (as low as 80% depending on how high she is, usually closer to 90% though). It's also pretty easy to stay below her parasol and just hit her (and keep pressure, although you probably won't kill this way unless you take a risk).

Falco's got some good stuff too. His gigantic double jump is crazy good against her. Dair in general is good. If you're conservative and decide to go the no risk route and miss some, he's still in a great position a lot of the time because he sports the best ledge pressure in the game on her (except MAYBE Sheik's because, despite lasers being better, Sheik's grab auto-KOs at X percent and grab works on the most obvious answer to needles from a distance [block]).

In b4 Falcos say Falco can't edgeguard Peach.
 

ShroudedOne

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As Peach, I honestly have the most trouble coming back against Falco. I've noticed that Falcos are generally unafraid to challenge me if I recover high (stupid double jump), and if I go for the ledge, I'm always running the risk of getting spiked. I'm fairly sure that Falco can trade a dair for Peach's umbrella and get it. And a trade is always worth it if you take a stock. Falco can edge guard Peach, it's just that Falco's aren't as smart about it as they need to be. :)
 

KirbyKaze

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I think some float heights are actually really awkward to laser down and it can be hard to respond to certain high --> low transitions. But yeah, Falco's edgeguard on her *****.
 

Winston

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I think Falcon and Marth are really good at edgeguarding Peach also.

Falcon has the jump speed and enormous hitboxes to cover her options consistently when she's recovering and bair/uair her back offstage. I think Falcon's way better consistently hitting her than Fox because of how far he can go offstage without committing + his amazing uair arc.

Marth I think we talked about before but his bair/uair let him do something similar. Even if peach gains height, if she has to parasol above him he's still in a pretty good position. Dtilt/Fsmash are pretty good at covering her trying to go low for the edge.

Of course her recovery is like 50 times better than Falcon's so this is sort of irrelevant, but I just felt like opining why her recovery is way worse than, say, Jigglypuff's.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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I think everyone sucks at edgeguarding peach. If she has her jump and float left, i dont think marth is that good at all. In that scenario i think i agree with KK that falco might be the best just because of lasers and that jump.
 

Mew2King

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marth sucks at edge guarding peach wtf

okay i baired her and now shes WAY ABOVE ME and uair dont kill till 160+ or something AND marth doesn't jump that high

peach is 10 X better at edge guarding marth than marth is at edge guarding peach just because peach can go way way above him.

puff is the best at it cuz she can go anywhere and even if you dodge a bair she can do another, and Peach can't do umbrella schenigans on puff cuz she's always spaced safely.

Fox can jump high and bair and Falco even more so. Falco can guess right and get instant KO dair and fox can get spinespikes.

They can all chase her really high. Sheik's alright at it too, but I'd definitely put those 3 above her since they chase her the highest.

anyone can gimp peach if she recovers low, but only a few can chase her if she goes high.

I think at edge guarding peach, puff and falco are the best at it cuz they go so freaking high, and Fox is good at it too.
 

Varist

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and i'm pretty sure you should shut your mouth and listen to M2K, he's a secret falcon main you know. :awesome:
 
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