Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Pi]

while he's at it why not have him explain why dk fox is in dk's favor

or sheik samus is in samus favor

or falco ganon is in ganon's favor

Zzzz

 

[choknater]

Can you explain it to me, please ? For the small amount of ICs I've played (e.g Smasher89 and Daümling at BEAST2) I didn't feel like it was to their advantage at all.

i'll tell you my thought process as i approached the matchup. i had gained some experience playing vs marth, dk, and ganon, and i started to discover how to play defensively with ic's. basically, desynching and using nana's blizzard is a solid go-to strategy against characters without projectiles.

when i played against puff, i noticed that the biggest reason i (and many other ic players) get hit is because of one major mistake: wavedashing forward too much. generally puff tries to zone with fair and bair. hbox made it a point that zoning with bair is her best strategy. keeping that in mind, i focused on a few of the characters' fundamentals.

puff stuff
1. puff focuses on strong horizontal/diagonal aerial movement and horizontal hitboxes

2. on the other hand, her vertical speed is slow. her uair is pretty good, but she can't really challenge people below her

3. so, she is weak against

3a. fast GROUND movement, i.e. falcon, fox, luigi, marth's dash dance
3b. strong horizontal ground zoning, i.e. she is not great at challenging young link's straight bomb throw or falco's laser. these force her to jump high in the air. she can't even short hop past these things.
3c. getting outranged, i.e. marth​

4. puff is light

ic's cover all these weaknesses:

ic's vs puff stuff
5. ic's wavedash FORWARD is not "bad" against puff, but wd AWAY is really amazing. even if puff's air movement is good, it is still way too slow to catch ic's

6. after getting away from puff, ic's can easily initiate the blizzard desynch. nana's blizzard basically creates a wall that outranges puff's bair and all of her low to ground stuff, and leaves popo free to do whatever he wants. this is very important! this basically breaks the matchup that the blizzard BEATS BAIR and lets POPO DO ANYTHING

6a. popo's options if nana's blizzard hits include: wd forward grab, wd forward fsmash/usmash, ice block, wd away for more space, roll away, etc. whatever you want to do to keep momentum
6b. popo's options if nana's blizzard hits nothing: short hop ice block to keep camping if puff is far away, walk or short wd forward to inch the blizzard toward puff safely (and perhaps do another attack such as short hop ice block to keep a continuous desynch going), uair if puff tries to get over blizzard from above
6c. if puff tries to go over blizzard from above, or try to approach ic's from behind, ic's can just quickly wd to the other side of the stage. puff takes FOREVER to get over ic's while avoiding popo's uair​

7. ic's damage output is a hard counter to puff's lightness. if you think about it, their double attacks outdamage even ganon. i know i listed desynched blizzards as the go-to strategy, but there will always be those times where ic's can get a random wd forward fsmash or a uair. all their attacks do like 20% against puff, and she will die at 70%.

8. ic's first weakness against puff is being at a close range where ic's can't just run away from her without risking getting hit. however, i found a simple strategy to counter this! believe it or not, it is ic's dair. here's why

8a. it comes out faster than puff's good aerials
8b. think of its speed and usage as similar to fox's nair, except even better against puff because it does like 18% and its trajectory is very low. as a results KEEPS HER CLOSE so you can do more dairs. if ic's hit a quick shffl'd dair, they can basically keep chasing puff with dair until she decides to DI away, in which case ic's can go back go running away and setting up defense.​

9. ic's one and only REAL weakness against puff is if puff gets an early lead. of course, if i start the match with blizzard defense this almost never happens, because puff has an incredibly hard time getting through it. if puff gets a life lead, she is good at setting up her own bair defense and she can jump really high to avoid ic's uair pokes. as you can see, this matchup is very gay LOL.

and i didn't even talk about grabbing puff LMAO. that's like a free 25+ damage, or death if you handoff/wobble/grab her at good percent. actually though, ic's don't rely on grabbing puff in this matchup because it's not necessary to do damage. it's best used for a surefire kill.

this is why i wanna play hungrybox, because recently i've never lost to any other puff. i want to play against a puff who can get the first hit against me, and also have good defense to fight ic's approaches. it'd make for a great match!!

this strategy is not the only way to fight puff, but in my opinion it's the most effective. chudat fought puff by spacing against her, using a lot of WD back while facing away from puff and punishing puff's aerials on shield with ic's bair. in his old early sets vs mango's, he would do very well. in fly's more recent set where he beat hbox, he would do this a lot too. so this is a good way for ic's to initiate offense. however, i think with the blizzard defense strategy, ic's barely even need to space and they'll **** all of puff's options lol.

just to demonstrate how good it is, try this with your ic friends

have your ic player do a basic desynch of nana blizzard and popo short hop ice block. and see how hard it is to get through with puff. LOLOL. and then apply the fact that popo doesn't have to keep repeating that, he can actually do whatever he wants.

there are other nice things that ic's have on puff. for example, they can punish puff's short hop bair on shield by wding out of shield and fsmashing or something. however, other characters can do this too and i think i covered most of the matchup-specific stuff. i'm sure your ic friends can figure out the rest on the fly

Spoiler

amanita

speaking of fly, he would probably have more to say about the matchup too. he always says that he doesn't believe that blizzard is as strong as i say it is, but different things work for me and him. i'll always stick to that strategy until someone can actually defeat it. *cough* i wanna play hungrybox

while he's at it why not have him explain why dk fox is in dk's favor

or sheik samus is in samus favor

or falco ganon is in ganon's favor

Zzzz

>implying puff beats ic's

yeah, this is very dumb. i can, however, explain to you why dk fox is in fox's favor, etc. but i don't think you need those explanations since you pointed out that they are so obvious.

 

[Blistering Speed]

LOL @ 70:30.

I see no character main bias here whatsoever.

 

[choknater]

yeah, me neither

 

[Doc King]

Hey guys, is there a matchup chart that's pretty current right now?

 

[t3h Icy]

Match-up charts are fun!

Only they don't work in this community.

 

[choknater]

the latest ones in melee discussion are pretty decent

 

[asianaussie]

matchup charts are for mathletes and people who care about lower tiered characters

hence it's perfect for 64

 

[Warhawk]

Match-up charts are fun!

Only they don't work in this community.

I thought yours did a pretty good job for when it was made.

 

[Tekk]

Thanks for the write-up choknater.

 

[choknater]

no prob tekk

 

[Armada]

I'm just sad that Armada finds none of us to be worth anything at all.

That is not true

The part Wake said is true. Many of the things Leffen said is true about me (like how I worked and stuff).

It´s also true that I don´t like watching Peach players play (Mention it in the Apex interview). But I actually think Peach is way more fun to play then watch (even if it is mine). Peach is not the most fun char to watch for severall of reasons (for most people at least).

That´s a part why no one could give me inspiration cause the char dosen´t allows it really good. That´s also a big reason why I tried to change that (could have worked better but still kinda proud)

But ofc I really like Peach players to preform well to. I like Fox/Falco but only this char takeing the top spots is boring so I guess Genesis 2 was kinda good from that view

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well leffen should be more caareful with his word choice, then.

But I kinda figured that it wasn't that cut and dry. After coming so far with a specific character, you want to see others do well with her, too.

I personally find Peach really fun to watch, but that's just me. I also like the ditto. Nevertheless, I can understand where you're coming from.

 

[nube]

yo armada my is higher on the tier list than yours

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13719531&postcount=123

 

[ShroudedOne]

So if you were wondering if leffen's Yoshi could handle characters other than spacies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHN3WTdISlI&feature=feedu

 

[Varist]

all this yoshi **** coming out of the woodwork
damn

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'ma be giving Ness some rep soon.

 

[choknater]

young link here

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Whose gonna take G&W?

 

[john!]

Whose gonna take G&W?

let's money match

i'll money match my g&w vs. other people's garbage tier characters

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fly to Australia and you're on.

 

[Mew2King]

teach me vs ICs MU

i don't know the MU i kinda just play

nor do I have a char to use vs them I just go whoever <_<

that's usually what I do now though in general

 

[Blistering Speed]

teach me vs ICs MU

i don't know the MU i kinda just play

nor do I have a char to use vs them I just go whoever <_<

that's usually what I do now though in general

Focus on one character for it, and not Sheik.

 

[ShroudedOne]

M2K, your Peach is pretty ****. Just learn the MU with her if your main 3 are having roadblocks (I honestly think Peach is your 4th best char)

 

[Beat!]

His Falcon's pretty good as well.

 

[Strong Badam]

His 4th best character is Mewtwo

 

[choknater]

teach me vs ICs MU

i don't know the MU i kinda just play

nor do I have a char to use vs them I just go whoever <_<

that's usually what I do now though in general

the best characters for the matchup are peach, fox, and falco

i think falcon ic's is a 60-60 matchup, hax is the only falcon who is good at it.

IMO your best bet would be fox. you have to play vs them differently, though. platform camping is a good way to start. shines are very powerful, same w/ grabs especially fthrow and bthrow. eventually i'm sure you'll learn the nuances of the matchup, you just have to find a good ic's to practice against (rare)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mango's Falcon is good at it, Chok.

and lol at 60:60 MU

 

[Winston]

s2j says he's not good at it but he'll beat every IC's player so ... ???

 

[choknater]

oh yah mango and johnny are good at it

but hax is the best

 

[Fletch]

Isn't Marth pretty good against ICs? I don't know the matchup from either side, always thought that though and just wanted to ask.

 

[kevo]

It kinda depends on the way the Icie plays. If you somehow pick the Icies apart, Nana and Popo become combo food quick. Icies matchups are hard to talk about because good IC mains are so rare. They also play really different from each other.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Its a very interesting match-up.

ICs need to work harder for it, but it isn't that bad really.

 

[choknater]

ic's marth is even

just depends on who knows and executes the matchup better

also stage dependent. ic's win 60-40 on FD easily

 

[King5280]

choknater you constantly say they have a good mu vs everyone. they lose to everyone above them except sheik.

 

[Strong Badam]

IC's are weird
i don't think they have all that horrendous match-ups except against peach
But historically there have only been like 2 IC players currently doing well. It's like the Sith or some ****.
So no one cares and they're 8th

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs vs. Peach is -2, it just has a massive learning curbve

imo, of course, but if you watch Wobbles in that MU...

 

[Blistering Speed]

ic's marth is even

just depends on who knows and executes the matchup better

also stage dependent. ic's win 60-40 on FD easily

Stop being hilariously biased.

Also, I had a look at your Puff reasons for 70-30 finally, they're ridiculous. Gimmicks that can be defeated by patience/not being a complete **** are not reasons to win a match up.

I do however think it's potentially even, but I've never seen a Puff play gay against ICs.

 

[choknater]

pretty sure you guys are lazy and assume that ic's are not as viable as the top 7

i am not being biased, i am basing everything i say off tournament experience.

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you did not test jigglypuff vs blizzard wall. it is not a "gimmick," it is taking advantage of ic's greatest strength of having 2 characters. puff playing patiently gets bodied by wd back shield, or ic's having the lead. puff trying to approach gets stopped by blizzard. puff is legitimately disadvantaged in every situation. don't be lazy and take it from someone who has played the matchup mad times.

here is a small example of what it looks like

notice when he tried to approach, i put up my shield inside nana's blizzard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jazwLylWubo&t=2m

ic's v fox = 4:6
ic's v falco = 45:55
ic's v puff = 6:4 or 7:3
ic's v sheik = 6:4
ic's v marth = 5:5 stage dependent
ic's v peach = 3:7
ic's v falcon = 5:5 (though hax makes it look and feel in falcon's favor)
ic's v ganon = 4:6

i'd say these are all realistic and i'm not talking out of my ***.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I pretty much agree with Chok except Falcon and Peach.

I think Peach is a little better for ICs than that, and Falcon is worse.