Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[choknater]

ok maybe a little worse against falcon. when i think of johnny mango and hax, it sounds a little scary. looks like i'll have to figure that matchup out a little more

 

[Geenareeno]

Dang, IC's are good. That small clip was actually really inspiring. Makes me want to pick them up as a secondary, but they are too much work, too hard, and too frustrating.

 

[Pi]

meh w/e
ic get bodied for free by samus

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That is a massive lie LOL

 

[choknater]

samus wins by a little bit

ic's have trouble getting close, but once they're in there, they're in there

missiles are mad hard to deal with

 

[Blistering Speed]

Your two primary reasons for Ice Climbers beating Puff 70-30.

1) Ice Climbers can WD backwards.

OH **** NO. NOT RETREATING AND RESETTING TO NEUTRAL. WARN THE OTHERS. "puff playing patiently gets bodied by wd back shield," THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE.

2) Nana can desynch blizzard.

Blizzard is an impenetrable wall of never ending hitbox that Puff is forced to jumped into through some kind of jack off magnet apparently.

The other matchups seem solid. I think Marth and Falcon have slight advantage and Peach is 65/35 but I'm not going to argue over something that slight.

 

[choknater]

i don't like the way you argue because you assume i am exaggerating. you have never even seen me play the matchup

i'm just trying to show how ic's are advantageous in every situation, and you are not even providing examples of what puff can do to counter it, in which case i may or may not rethink my strategy.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Blistering, have you ever considered debating without being a ****head?

Much better way to get your point across.

 

[Varist]

yeah blustering spud, don't be a ****head.

d**ks already have heads, you don't need to add more

 

[Blistering Speed]

i don't like the way you argue because you assume i am exaggerating. you have never even seen me play the matchup

i'm just trying to show how ic's are advantageous in every situation, and you are not even providing examples of what puff can do to counter it, in which case i may or may not rethink my strategy.

I have seen you play the match-up. You do not defy IC's fundamental mechanics.

The fact you are not engaging my points only suggests to me that you do not have a rebuttal. You have put the outlandish claim forward, the burden of proof is with you.

Blistering, have you ever considered debating without being a ****head?

Much better way to get your point across.

I disagree. People are so entrenched in their own preconceived notions on this site, the most effective way to get your point across is to bury them under their own ******** logic.


In person, I would entirely agree.

 

[frotaz37]

At some point you're gonna have to accept that saying ICs > Puff 70-30 is not an outlandish claim at all.

And at some point, you're going to have to accept that the way you're choosing to make your points is not going to help you convince other people that what you're saying is true.

 

[choknater]

it's strange to think that the burden of proof is on me when i already made a HUGE wall of text trying to prove my point, and you just don't believe it. it just doesn't fit your logic.

well then, crazy person (if that's alright, since you keep calling me a ******), i'll engage your points. you may also choose to keep ignoring what i say whilst i educate the melee boards as to how this matchup can be properly played by both sides.

Your two primary reasons for Ice Climbers beating Puff 70-30.

1) Ice Climbers can WD backwards.

OH **** NO. NOT RETREATING AND RESETTING TO NEUTRAL. WARN THE OTHERS. "puff playing patiently gets bodied by wd back shield," THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE.

2) Nana can desynch blizzard.

Blizzard is an impenetrable wall of never ending hitbox that Puff is forced to jumped into through some kind of jack off magnet apparently.

The other matchups seem solid. I think Marth and Falcon have slight advantage and Peach is 65/35 but I'm not going to argue over something that slight.

1) i think i forgot to mention that the "wd back" is actually a wd going towards puff, facing away from her. it's offense

a retreating puff is able to be chased down. this should only be done if puff actually has the lead though, so ic's best bet at that point is to just go for bairs and uairs. it's really the only way to touch puff if she's going away, but it's a fairly reliable tactic. being forced to approach puff is not ic's strong point

the only time that ic's can't straight up wd back toward puff is when she is close to the ground and bairing. and she has to be spacing the bairs in a way to 1. prevent wd or 2. actually hit ic's. so a close/mid range is optimal here.

ic can also play gay and inch toward her with desynchs, rather than just camping, like walk forward a little bit while nana is blizzarding, and doing moves. puff can't stop the initiation of a desynch unless she's actually close by

so i'll concede that puff has two good positions in the matchup
a. ic's at the edge of the stage so they can't roll away to start a desynch, and puff is trying to hit them with bairs and also prevent a wd forward with bairs. so a low to ground horizontal game. ic's can't really get through this so they'd probably answer with belay oos blizzard or synched blizzard, in which case puff can just SDI out of the blizzard and continue spacing

b. puff has the lead and can run away forever (though unrealistic cuz she has to come down eventually and ic's are good at catching that)

2) yes, blizzard is an impenetrable wall. i'm gonna call it that for now until a puff player proves me wrong in a set.

i mean, it's a close range projectile that outranges and beats out her bair. cmon man, other characters could use something like that! i know it doesn't last forever, but if popo chooses to sh ice block immediately after, he cuts off a lot of ways for her to get in between nana blizzards. so, it's a pretty solid go-to zoning strategy vs puff.

i usually stop doing this when the puff player is at the right range and actually finds the timing to hop high over the blizzard and catch popo in his short hop. this usually only happens when i'm stupidly in autopilot though, since i can just shield or uair with popo instead while nana is blizzarding.

the point is, if ic's have the percent lead, YES, puff is FORCED to run into my "JACK OFF MAGNET"

I have seen you play the match-up. You do not defy IC's fundamental mechanics.

hm. which time? i've gotten better at it since i played king and bluefoxxt in the past.

were you at the last cgc when i 3-stocked sheridan with this strategy? lol. if you live in norcal, we should get together and play sometime.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Oh snap Chok, I just wrote a response to your original text over this. I'll edit it later to include your new points, primarily the whole thing over the WD back mix up. Take this as a work in progress 'til then.

5. ic's wavedash FORWARD is not "bad" against puff, but wd AWAY is really amazing. even if puff's air movement is good, it is still way too slow to catch ic's

IC's have a great WD, but WDing back does nothing. Its length means it's entirely resetting to neutral, and a Puff's horizontal aerial speed means she can re-engage safely and quickly. This also moves IC's closer to a ledge, this is a great thing for Puff.

6. after getting away from puff, ic's can easily initiate the blizzard desynch. nana's blizzard basically creates a wall that outranges puff's bair and all of her low to ground stuff, and leaves popo free to do whatever he wants. this is very important! this basically breaks the matchup that the blizzard BEATS BAIR and lets POPO DO ANYTHING

Blizzard has its own host of problems that you skirt over, primarily its cooldown, the fact it's a finite hitbox and that Puff DOES NOT HAVE TO JUMP INTO IT. It's a good strategy but nothing more. This isn't getting into how horrendously Puff can and will wreck a desynced, single IC. Nana can and will die in any instance you leave her, be it rest or edgeguard molestation.

7. ic's damage output is a hard counter to puff's lightness. if you think about it, their double attacks outdamage even ganon. i know i listed desynched blizzards as the go-to strategy, but there will always be those times where ic's can get a random wd forward fsmash or a uair. all their attacks do like 20% against puff, and she will die at 70%.

IC's have great aerial options in U Air and B Air but they are ****ing hard to get in if Puff doesn't let it happen. These "times" are dependant on mistakes. 70-30 matchups don't depend on the other player's mistakes.

Lol, Puff doesn't die at 70 in a real match, barring a big **** up.. Her general spacing and ******** risk:reward ratio mean getting in that kill is taking a lot more. Fox is the only character who really defies this.

8. ic's first weakness against puff is being at a close range where ic's can't just run away from her without risking getting hit. however, i found a simple strategy to counter this! believe it or not, it is ic's dair. here's why

8a. it comes out faster than puff's good aerials
8b. think of its speed and usage as similar to fox's nair, except even better against puff because it does like 18% and its trajectory is very low. as a results KEEPS HER CLOSE so you can do more dairs. if ic's hit a quick shffl'd dair, they can basically keep chasing puff with dair until she decides to DI away, in which case ic's can go back go running away and setting up defense.​

I'm seeing a very similar argument trend here as with the desynced blizzard. D Air does not solve IC's close range issues against Puff. Unless Jiggs is frigging F Tilting inside your sheild, I don't even see it as optimal. Jiggs does a retreating aerial. Jiggs uses a semblance of spacing. How does this solve the issue? I honestly see this only putting you in a vulnerable position the majority of the time.

and i didn't even talk about grabbing puff LMAO. that's like a free 25+ damage, or death if you handoff/wobble/grab her at good percent. actually though, ic's don't rely on grabbing puff in this matchup because it's not necessary to do damage. it's best used for a surefire kill.

Grabbing IC's with Puff, as you said, is really hard and really dangerous.

The rest is observational stuff I can't really debate.

You have this impression of situation x = counter with y, Melee doesn't work like that, especially when the options you list are inexplicably hyperbolic.

And for the record Chok, I think IC's are potentially even. I also think there's a good deal of bias, your IC's preference makes you see Puff in a very basic, one dimensional way, so you're blind to Puff's options.

I hope that's more constructive.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1) i think i forgot to mention that the "wd back" is actually a wd going towards puff, facing away from her. it's offense

IC's have a great WD, but WDing back does nothing. Its length means it's entirely resetting to neutral, and a Puff's horizontal aerial speed means she can re-engage safely and quickly. This also moves IC's closer to a ledge, this is a great thing for Puff/

herp de derp

You should probably stop now.

I think its 60:40 ICs favour, 7:3 seems like a stretch.

 

[Blistering Speed]

herp de derp

You should probably stop now.

I think its 60:40 ICs favour, 7:3 seems like a stretch.

Read the first line, genius.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I have a hypothetical question. If instead of two links there was just one but he had only all the positives of both links put together how good would that link be? were on the tier list?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The speed of young link and the size/range of link... hmmm


Probably right where he is right now. I don't see that combination being better than DK (i got ur back strong bad)

 

[Strong Badam]

that char would probably be better than DK

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

also killing power of link. at the very min this combo would be a pretty good counter against jiggs

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah actually he might be top tier

 

[Strong Badam]

High tier. Not top tier.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No I think he would counter peach, puff and marth. That alone would make him at least as good as sheik.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think he'd counter Marth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth would still be able to flail wildly when Link's shielding and Link couldn't really do anything about it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

except he'd have a fast WD oos as well as bomb OoS, grab, and upb OoS.

I think having a faster jump and a utilt that came out faster would solve a lot of link's problems

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon would still own him.

 

[Strong Badam]

UpB OoS is laggy as ****
Grab isn't fast enough to be relevant lol

 

[Pi]

UpB OoS is laggy as ****
Grab isn't fast enough to be relevant lol

he'd have an UpB OoS that doesn't become useless after u shield it
think of Y.Links UpB OoS hit rate, + links KB
dats a pretty good move.
even if it is a bit slow

 

[Strong Badam]

Y.Link's hit rate + Link's KB would be BROKEN
That's like if DK's was sweetspot every single time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ganon would still own him.

Actually I think this might tip the match-up into link's favor. YL had an evenish match-up (probably in ganons favor) due to his speed but lack of legit range. Link had a hard time because they were the same speed but ganon was stronger. If link is faster, has the same range, and has projectiles... idk




edit-- tbh i think it would look really really silly to see link moving as fast as YL. Just saying

 

[Strong Badam]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I have an idea... Hex editing away!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Adam if you do what i think youre gonna do, i'm making a road trip for your house, screw finals.

 

[KirbyKaze]

except he'd have a fast WD oos as well as bomb OoS, grab, and upb OoS.

Wait, other than fast WD oos what of these options does he not have normally?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

None

But the combination is improved thanks to the jump. sh/fh OoS bomb is also more viable

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first i just want to say i am happy this has turned into a pretty cool conversation.

2nd to PI that is exactly how I was thinking his upB would work.

3rd, should i take this idea to the project-M people or something b/c i really want to see this now and since i dont know how to hack melee nor do i know anyone who does project-m seems to be my best option. (plus if he is really high tier material i think this idea fits with what they r doing)

 

[Blistering Speed]

YL's Up B with Link's KB would be hilarious.

But yeah, Marth'd still win.

 

[john!]

YL's up-b is the closest thing this game has to metaknight's tornado.

.................................................................i don't think i need to give another reason why we shouldn't buff it

 

[Strong Badam]

You can DI in this game though.

 

[john!]

dude, have you seen brawl's DI? it's ridic. snake can live until 200% on pretty much every stock if you have perfect ally DI. MK's tornado can move though, which is why it's dumb

 

[Strong Badam]

Tornado has a 0x SDI multiplier. Melee has no SDI multipliers. Tornado in Melee would be easy to SDI out of.