Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

That was only a secondary point. Do you think Ness is as bad as Kirby/Bowser/Pichu?

Honestly? Yes.

edit:

Blistering Speed: I put Puff above Sheik because I'm lazy and don't feel like arguing. I think they're very similar power level and Sheik could be better but I'm lazy.

 

[VGmasta]

People still placing Doc ABOVE Samus and Ganon?!

 

[KirbyKaze]

People still underrating Doc?

Blanket statements with no substance are so easy to make lol

 

[Beat!]

People still placing Doc ABOVE Samus and Ganon?!

... yes? It's definitely possible that he's worse, but it's not like placing him above them is outrageous or something. Personally, I think he's better than them by a decent margin.

 

[Stevo]

Pretty much this

For me it goes:

1/2. Fox/Falco
3. Sheik
4. Jigglypuff
5. Marth
6. Peach
7/8. Captain Falcon/Ice Climbers
9. Dr. Mario
10/11. Ganondorf/Pikachu
12/13. Samus/Mario
14. Luigi
15. Young Link
16/17. Link/Donkey Kong
18/19/20. Zelda/Mewtwo/Roy
21/22. Mr. Game & Watch/Ness
23/24/25. Bowser/Kirby/Pichu
26. Master Hand

pretty good, except I would put Yoshi in there somewhere. I think Pikachu should be next to doc and maybe Pichu swapped with ness (or just all 4 of them at the bottom still).

 

[King5280]

master hand should be one. he 4 stocks everybody. always.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hmmm...the thought of Marth being above Sheik sounds ridiculous to me. But perhaps someone can explain to me why he should be?

And Puff being right below Sheik makes sense. Sheik does better against Marth and Fox for sure, maybe Falco (not really 100% sure, though), and loses to Puff (probably not as hard as people think, though).

I really don't know who does better against Peach. They both have positive MUs, and while Sheik would be the obvious choice....I don't know. Someone help me with this. I don't want to only go on Armada's word, but he as well as leffen think Puff is one of Peach's worst MUs (next to Fox and maybe Falcon).

I also don't really know who does better against Falcon, but I feel inclined to say Sheik.

 

[Beat!]

Hmmm...the thought of Marth being above Sheik sounds ridiculous to me. But perhaps someone can explain to me why he should be?

Well, in my view, Marth's overall matchup spread vs the top/high tier characters is quite a lot better than Sheik's, which imo is more than enough to compensate for Sheik's slight adavntage in the head-to-head and her low tier domination.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, how does Sheik do against the top 7/8, in your opinion, compared to Marth? Their spacie MUs both seem the same (I think an argument could be made for Marth doing worse against Falco than her, but I'm not sure). She certainly does better against Peach than Marth (nowadays, anyways), and Marth probably does better than Puff? I'm not sure. I think Sheik does better against Falcon, as well...

 

[Warhawk]

Well, how does Sheik do against the top 7/8, in your opinion, compared to Marth? Their spacie MUs both seem the same (I think an argument could be made for Marth doing worse against Falco than her, but I'm not sure). She certainly does better against Peach than Marth (nowadays, anyways), and Marth probably does better than Puff? I'm not sure. I think Sheik does better against Falcon, as well...

Yea I agree. Minus the ICs the matchups that Marth does better than Sheik in seem by minor amounts and Sheik wins the head to head and beats some other upper tiers by solid amounts.


KK why do you think Pikachu's in the top 10? I thought how bad Pika was against Sheik and ICs made him underneath Doc, Ganon, and Samus.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ICs are uncommon. Sheik horribly eviscerates both of them.

Ganon seriously sucks you guys just can't fight him because you guys are horrible at SH fair > grab with Sheik and simple needle camping.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

pretty good, except I would put Yoshi in there somewhere. I think Pikachu should be next to doc and maybe Pichu swapped with ness (or just all 4 of them at the bottom still).

Yah, I forgot Yoshi. I'd put him somewhere with the Links.

You underestimate Ness A LOT. As someone who has used both characters in tournament, I'd say their PAL MUs are:

NESS
Fox -3
Falco -3
Jigglypuff -2
Sheik -3
Marth -3
Peach -2.5
Falcon -3
Ice Climbers -2

PICHU
Fox -4
Falco -3
Jigglypuff -2
Sheik -3
Marth -3
Peach -3.5
Falcon -4
Ice Climbers -4

NTSC = worse match-ups against Sheik, thats all

Pichu has a range problem that Ness doesn't have (due to his fair), their mobility is comparable overall (Pichu is faster but has less options, where as Ness has DJC ****) and Pichu just has less options overall and gets punished much harder (excluding gimping situations, but Ness' recovery is underrated anyway, its all about finding the correct spot to recover from and then going for a sweetspot at the right time).

ICs are uncommon. Sheik horribly eviscerates both of them.

Blatant lies.

 

[Pi]

pika's pretty good
no reach though or areial priority
aside from upair but meh

 

[KirbyKaze]

Grim:

MU ratios are weak in this argument IMHO because these characters aren't very explored so there's no way to know if they're accurate. I could easily tick a bunch of your Ness values up a notch on the grounds that he can't kill those characters if they decide not to get killed and they all can OHKO him super duper easily. On that note, not every level is FD. Pichu has the decency to be able to tech chase reactively vs. FFers. Ness's combos are only comparably good on those characters on FD. Add in recovery and it's a lot closer.

Sheik is at least -4 Ness. Super broken grab combos hurt. OHKOs hurt. Her shield is massive and punishes him for having terrible grab range needlessly brutally.

Ness's DJ is extremely exploitable if you play to do it because he sucks at traveling platforms. Platform camping with a bunch of characters is therefore viable. He's also very vulnerable to people that camp near the edge because his recovery is actually that bad.

On that note, his recovery is in no way underrated. It's horrible. The worst recovery in the game. No amount of angles can prevent good characters from eating the electricity. Even if they don't do that, they can take advantage of his limited angles and massive startup time (many situations are GG for Ness when he's offstage). His resistance to gimps might actually be the worst in the game and exacerbates all of this.

Ness's fair is good but it doesn't answer all of that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't say his recovery was good, just better than people think. Its still the worst in the game, but instant death everytime he is off-stage is false.

Re-read my post in regards to the Sheik MU, because I'm pretty sure I said PAL.

And FD is one of Ness' worst stages imo, I don't know where you are getting this "Ness is bad on platforms" thing from. It increases his pressure by a ****-ton once he gets on one due to drop through > dj > nair/uair > l-cancel and gives him extra movements to use while he fairs.

What makes him bad on platforms? Genuinely curious, not necessarily disagreeing, cause I've always been aided by them when I play him.

Oh, and Ness can KO with bair. Its not like Brawl Samus where if you don't want to die against her, you just don't die. Ness' bair is fast, can be combo'd into and is going to hit eventually, usually 150% range. No killing ability =/= Late killing ability.

 

[Beat!]

Well, how does Sheik do against the top 7/8, in your opinion, compared to Marth? Their spacie MUs both seem the same (I think an argument could be made for Marth doing worse against Falco than her, but I'm not sure). She certainly does better against Peach than Marth (nowadays, anyways), and Marth probably does better than Puff? I'm not sure. I think Sheik does better against Falcon, as well...

Sure, I'll list them.

/flameshield

*ahem*

Marth does better vs Fox (evenish MU for Marth, disadvantage for Sheik)
Marth does better vs Falco (advantage/slight advantage for Marth, evenish for Sheik)
Marth does better vs Puff (slight advantage for Marth, slight disadvantage/even for Sheik)
Marth does better vs ICs (even/slight advantage for Marth, slight disadvantage for Sheik)
They do about the same vs Peach (advantage/slight advantage)
Sheik does better vs Marth (slight advantage)
Sheik does better vs Falcon (advantage for Sheik, slight advantage for Marth)

 

[Warhawk]

Marth does better vs Falco (advantage/slight advantage for Marth, evenish for Sheik)

This is definitely debatable. Many people actually see Falco having the advantage against Marth. Similarly I've heard a few players say that Sheik is Falco's only negative matchup. Though I do think its just the Falco players johning, Marth really doesn't do all that much better against Falco than Sheik, if even at all, I feel.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I didn't say his recovery was good, just better than people think. Its still the worst in the game, but instant death everytime he is off-stage is false.

Re-read my post in regards to the Sheik MU, because I'm pretty sure I said PAL.

And FD is one of Ness' worst stages imo, I don't know where you are getting this "Ness is bad on platforms" thing from. It increases his pressure by a ****-ton once he gets on one due to drop through > dj > nair/uair > l-cancel and gives him extra movements to use while he fairs.

What makes him bad on platforms? Genuinely curious, not necessarily disagreeing, cause I've always been aided by them when I play him.

Oh, and Ness can KO with bair. Its not like Brawl Samus where if you don't want to die against her, you just don't die. Ness' bair is fast, can be combo'd into and is going to hit eventually, usually 150% range. No killing ability =/= Late killing ability.

I generally assume we're talking about NTSC character MUs when they're brought up as an argument in the NTSC tier list thread. My bad.

He sucks at reaching top platforms because his double jump is super duper slow and attacking while going stops his momentum. So he winds up having to FJ > instant dair AC / waveland > FJ again, which is extremely telegraphed. He's good going from top to bottom, I guess, but going bottom to top he's ****ing horrible.

Instant death against someone with a decent b-throw algorithm is a realistic goal. I'm not sure you realize how bad being unable to DJ sweetspot is during gimping. Or how many weaknesses his recovery actually presents because of how much he hangs in the air even after he hits himself and other stuff.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Sheik does better versus Peach than Marth does. He doesn't have a guaranteed followup on her that can lead to death from a grab, like she does. That helps a lot. Marth has problems killing Peach at higher percents without tippers.

I want to also disagree with your assessment on Marth/Falco...I don't think Marth has an advantage, mainly because of Falco's extremely strong neutral game.

 

[Warhawk]

Congratulations on 2000 posts ShroudedOne

 

[Beat!]

This is definitely debatable. Many people actually see Falco having the advantage against Marth. Similarly I've heard a few players say that Sheik is Falco's only negative matchup. Tthough I do think its just the Falco players johning, Marth really doesn't do all that much better against Falco than Sheik I feel if even at all.

All the matchups I listed are debatable. I kinda figured vs Falco would be one of the most disagreed upon MUs out of the ones I listed, though.

Idk I'm just utterly convinced Marth wins it.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Well, it looks like Yoshi moving up has gradually caught on. Leffen and Vectorman have made quite a shake-up in the traditional tier structure.

The question now is: where do we place him? KK proposed between the Links. Is this a popular idea?

 

[Warhawk]

Well, it looks like Yoshi moving up has gradually caught on. Leffen and Vectorman have made quite a shake-up in the traditional tier structure.

The question now is: where do we place him? KK proposed between the Links. Is this a popular idea?

Depends on the versions. PAL I could see him being maybe above Pika. NTSC I can't see him being much higher than where KirbyKaze put him... Especially with Sheik's NTSC down throw lol.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Shrouded, please get better informed on everything.

Well, it looks like Yoshi moving up has gradually caught on. Leffen and Vectorman have made quite a shake-up in the traditional tier structure.

The question now is: where do we place him? KK proposed between the Links. Is this a popular idea?

A couple places higher. Potential for higher still if someone (looking at you, Leffen) can really exploit stuff.

Oh, are we using MUs as primary factor in tier positioning again? Much better.

Puff MUs:

Fox: Worst MU. 40-60ish.
Falco: Even, maybe 55-45 Puff.
Marth: 55-45 Puff, potentially slightly worse for Marth.
Sheik: 60-40 Puff.
Peach: 60-40 Puff.
IC: 50-50. Unsure on this one, I've never seen a Puff play it gay.
Falcon: 60-40 Puff.

Putting her below 3rd is ********.

 

[ShroudedOne]

LOL.

At least tell me where I'm misinformed. You know, specific points and things. Thanks.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

On that note, his recovery is in no way underrated. It's horrible. The worst recovery in the game. No amount of angles can prevent good characters from eating the electricity.

Words cannot describe how less that actually happens vs how much people think it happens.

 

[Strong Badam]

Everywhere.

Dammit Jackpot

 

[Wake]

Shrouded, I agree that Sheik does better against Peach than Marth. It's so hard for Marth to killer her at a certain point... and Sheik has grab shenanigans. (I think better grab shenanigans than Marth on Peach.)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I generally assume we're talking about NTSC character MUs when they're brought up as an argument in the NTSC tier list thread. My bad.

If this is sarcasm:
Thats a fair assumption if I didn't specifically give PAL ratios for Sheik and NTSC ratios for Sheik in my post and point out that I had done so.

If it isn't:
No problem :3

He sucks at reaching top platforms because his double jump is super duper slow and attacking while going stops his momentum. So he winds up having to FJ > instant dair AC / waveland > FJ again, which is extremely telegraphed. He's good going from top to bottom, I guess, but going bottom to top he's ****ing horrible.

Ah yeah, that makes sense.

Though I think you are only seeing the downsides of his double jump, because it alters momentum it gives him access to forms of aerial movement to make up in part for the weaknesses you outlined.

Instant death against someone with a decent b-throw algorithm is a realistic goal. I'm not sure you realize how bad being unable to DJ sweetspot is during gimping. Or how many weaknesses his recovery actually presents because of how much he hangs in the air even after he hits himself and other stuff.

I understand his recovery fine, the people I play against are probably just bad

 

[KirbyKaze]

Words cannot describe how less that actually happens vs how much people think it happens.

Perhaps. But I'm similarly convinced that people downplay how crippling the inability to rise with an attack or DJ to sweetspot the edge in any conventional way actually is. He doesn't actually have significant recovery mixups in a huge variety of positions. This is a huge, exploitable problem.

 

[Blistering Speed]

The debate over Ness' terrible recovery stops now. Suffice to say, it's terrible.

 

[Pi]

no i think it's pretty good
did u know that u can also use it on stage for early KO's? it's quite strong

 

[BSeeD]

Lol then tell me how you use it on stage without you're opponent hitting you in the process ?

 

[Pi]

well it's not always easy, if it were then ness would probably be banned lol
but one thing i like to do is lock my opponent down in nesses fire trap (side special)
then start the up special
usually ur opponent is struggling to deal with the fire, and then all of the sudden u are headbutting them for the KO at an early %

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^not sure if serious

 

[Strong Badam]

LOOLLLL knihT you're hilarious.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Is that knihT?

Loooool, that explains a lot.

 

[Strong Badam]

knihT/3/Rock Lee/Pi

All one and the same

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My life is a lie

I thought this was 3 people:
knihT
3/Rock Lee
Pi

 

[Strong Badam]

It was 3 people
Nice post count there btw. It's over nine thousaaaaaaaand