leffen
Smash Champion
I do, sheesh. And I didnt theorycraft
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I still believe Ganon is strong enough to be viable though obviously not Top Tier but I've seen a lot people starting to rank him down, I mean if you guys want to do that that's fine by me, it's going to be all that much sweeter to beat people. =P
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Don't post before Kage when you clearly have no experience with Ganondorf.
leffen
Smash Champion
@Kaosstar: Yoshi doesn't have any limits, only technical limits (much like Fox tbh).
Whatever, either I'm just amazing or the character is better than people think.
Whatever, either I'm just amazing or the character is better than people think.
Tekk
Smash Lord
Or people you play yoshi against don't have any yoshi experience...?
Fortress | Sveet
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Yoshi is a niche character; he is really really bad until the player is really good with him, and then he starts moving up to that mid tier position. If we were to vote tomorrow i'd probably put him just below zelda.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Or the people he plays are ***. Oh snap.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
yoshi has limits. every character has limits. except dark phoenix...no limit.
anyway, yoshi is underrated, because of the lack of ppl playing him, who don't suck ***.(I don't mean all the yoshi players suck ***, don't hit me) now he is getting his shot to settle into his appropriate spot on the tier list. he has tools that are still being developed, he isn't a god. no need to take the anti extreme of a low tier and say his potential is limitless.
yoshi has range, speed, damage, combo and movement limitations like every character in any game lol.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
When he says limitless in a similar sense to Fox, he's probably referring to parrying and its cap due to human capability.
Serious cases of Dunning Kruger in here lolz.
Serious cases of Dunning Kruger in here lolz.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
May I please, ask why when comparing something, somehow, me, or a video of mine/axe's are always compared, I''m a bit curiuos..
One of us, is always a target in one of your post...
I understand no offense intended, but is there a reason, why we're always the measuring stick? 
Beat!
Smash Master
Because you pioneered Yoshi and was the go-to inspiration for Yoshi players for quite some time?
leffen
Smash Champion
Tekk: People with no Yoshi experience? LOL. The only thing you could claim is that they dont have matchup knowledge, the experience argument is hilariously wrong.
I've played hours upon hours vs people, giving them Yoshi experience and it doesnt change my perfomances AT ALL. I play and play them and yet I dominate them. The character doesn't have any fatal flaw, for gods sake, Fox and Falco has bigger ones.
Zoler, my teammate has played countless yoshi vs fox matches, and yet I 4stocked+3stocked him in our tournament set but only 2 stocked him with Fox.
I played 200+ friendlies vs Dev (top fox main in sweden) yet I dominated him in tournament.
From the day I picked up Yoshi I have played Pepitos falco all the time and the only thing that has changed is me winning more as I get better and more consistent.
@Kaosstar: Ofc he has those limits, but everyone has them. I ment limitless as in he never caps out like so many characters mainly because of his parry.
@Vman: 2 out of how many examples? You are a common example because everyone has seen you're vids vs Axe. Although I'm sorry if you felt offended or mistreated in anyway, I didnt intend for that. I just tried to find something that people can relate and there really aren't any other vids of high level players vs Yoshi.
Its just like people compare Ice to M2K.
I've played hours upon hours vs people, giving them Yoshi experience and it doesnt change my perfomances AT ALL. I play and play them and yet I dominate them. The character doesn't have any fatal flaw, for gods sake, Fox and Falco has bigger ones.
Zoler, my teammate has played countless yoshi vs fox matches, and yet I 4stocked+3stocked him in our tournament set but only 2 stocked him with Fox.
I played 200+ friendlies vs Dev (top fox main in sweden) yet I dominated him in tournament.
From the day I picked up Yoshi I have played Pepitos falco all the time and the only thing that has changed is me winning more as I get better and more consistent.
@Kaosstar: Ofc he has those limits, but everyone has them. I ment limitless as in he never caps out like so many characters mainly because of his parry.
@Vman: 2 out of how many examples? You are a common example because everyone has seen you're vids vs Axe. Although I'm sorry if you felt offended or mistreated in anyway, I didnt intend for that. I just tried to find something that people can relate and there really aren't any other vids of high level players vs Yoshi.
Its just like people compare Ice to M2K.
Tekk
Smash Lord
By saying "experience", I implied matchup knowledge, my bad.
leffen
Smash Champion
I hope I can meet someone who will learn it in such a way that Yoshi cannot overcome it, I really do.
So far, I don't see that coming however.
So far, I don't see that coming however.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Alright I'll just kick your *** over and over. =)
leffen
Smash Champion
Maybe I'm just unreasonably confident but then again, being that confident in yourself is needed if you want to use a character that according to everyone is horrible.
Beat!
Smash Master
5000$ MMs that will happen at Apex:
Kage vs S2J
Kage vs leffen
Keep them coming!
Kage vs S2J
Kage vs leffen
Keep them coming!
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
I understand, I feel like i still am too.. I've much more knowledge to share as well, if given the chance to show it/prove it, too.. even though, I'm playin roy atm.. I'm still a Yoshi guy and I know i can show more for him.. it just felt like it was another reason is all.. idk..
sorry for misunderstanding... Read leffen's post as well... and thanks, I understand a bit better now..
I understand man.. allrite, last thing i'm gonna post, here and it's not to call you out, or harm you, just you had put some incorrect info and i'm going to put the correct answer, (I think you may even know this, but it may have slipped your mind) "Read below"
^Leffen this is incorrect, you've even correctly put the correct info in my thread.. but what you've put here is incorrect, Not tryna call you out, but i would like the correct info put to other player(s) not familiar with it.. what you've put here...(below) is correct
what you've put here^ in this quote is correct...
Allrite that's all i've got for now.. Yoshi's underrated, leffen's yoshi is tight... uhhhh Roy's cool too..
Divinokage
Smash Legend
No it's not, you have to look at things for what they are because if not you just might slip up by seemingly being in the basking light while creeping shadows are also there waiting... And over-confident people will get shutdown easily, I don't even need to try to beat these guys.
Vman you are too nice, you need to put people on blast straight up sometimes.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Pretty sure every character has perfect shielding, Yoshi having a slightly better version doesn't make him comparable to Fox potential-wise.
ICs, Fox and Falco are still the only viable characters in perfect play.
He has.... no shield game... omg
Yoshi is mad underrated, but you are overrating him SOO much.
This made me lol.
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- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
In perfect play, it's Bowser, Fox, Falco, as said by Magus. Certainly not ICs.
And you guys need to calm down. Mature discussions are in fact possible here, and won't get you into trouble.
And you guys need to calm down. Mature discussions are in fact possible here, and won't get you into trouble.
leffen
Smash Champion
I have succeeded to do a frame perfect one in debug mode, you have to go lower than you think so you grab it sooner.
And 1 frame is good enough anyway.
@Grim. HOW DOES HAVE NO SHIELD GAME? First off, he has parry. The best shield technique in the game. Period. He then has a unpokeable shield, a light shield that is unique, NO SHIELDSTUN, best rolls ingame (he is invincible at the end, he has no lag) and he has the best shield drop.
I almost never shield with Yoshi anyway and I don't really need to. CF has a much worse shield game vs falco, too, and so does ganon.
And 1 frame is good enough anyway.
@Grim. HOW DOES HAVE NO SHIELD GAME? First off, he has parry. The best shield technique in the game. Period. He then has a unpokeable shield, a light shield that is unique, NO SHIELDSTUN, best rolls ingame (he is invincible at the end, he has no lag) and he has the best shield drop.
I almost never shield with Yoshi anyway and I don't really need to. CF has a much worse shield game vs falco, too, and so does ganon.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
You wouldn't believe me if I told you i used to be sexist/immature...
Well if you read my old post, you'd see i was immature....
but a life changing event happened to me, and now i'm well i guess this way now.... i guess.. idk...
many people believe it or not actually don't know how hice I really am, there are very few that do... but from what pple tell me, it's not a good thing to be nice... either.. idk.. idk anything..
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
why do people EVER bring up perfect play? ugh
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
honestly I just didn't pick up on that, I also am not willing to accept that a character with a "parry" vs everyone else with the ability to powershield isn't limitless. I think most characters in melee push human limits in terms of consistency and tech skill. fox easily exceeds them however.
yoshi is still just mediocre to low in terms of ability. u just have to change the way u play vs a sufficient parrier. if u don't attack u cant win, yoshi can be punished for attacks just like any character.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That depends on the situation I'd say, like in a tournament set you cannot have mercy on your opponent or when certain people are being unreasonable then they need to be put in their place, that's all there is to it.
leffen
Smash Champion
Powershielding and parrying isnt comparable. Its like comparing fox's laser to falcos, really.
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Parrying is a lot easier to do I think. Just less intuitive because fewer people actually use Yoshi
Parrying's also more applicable in more relevant match-ups than PSing is.
Parrying's also more applicable in more relevant match-ups than PSing is.
leffen
Smash Champion
Most importantly : you are 100% invincible, and you dont suffer shieldstun and hitlag like you do when you Powershield.
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PS in general sucks outside of reflect. Only a few cases were normal OoS options are inferior to PS -> stuff, mostly because of the stupid extra pushback on powershield.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
parrying is better yes, but yoshi is still not as good offensively as alot of other characters. yoshi is just strong defensively, you just have to capitalize on some of his weaker aspects as a character.
leffen
Smash Champion
he has a great offense tbh... djcancels +platform movement + everything being safe on sheild + great priority + no trouble vs cc + airgrab + huge damage = good imo.
and when you have that good of a defense your offense is helped greatly by it, since retaliating and getting our of pressure is punished so easily.
and when you have that good of a defense your offense is helped greatly by it, since retaliating and getting our of pressure is punished so easily.
VA
Smash Hero
Nawww. Powershield is good for wdash OOS, smash attacks like peach dsmash, fox usmash and marth w/e.
I love powershield wdash, it's ****.
/bored at work
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Umm with Ganon you can't shield a move then Jab, but with PS you can bring out that Jab instantly before the opponent lands in some cases assuming he didn't delay his aerial at the last second though I'm thinking about the spacies with this situation.
VA
Smash Hero
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
So do you finally agree with me/Taj, Axe, that Egglay is "useful"
?you said airgrab, in a positive example as used for Yoshi's offense... and we had major indifferences about "egg lay" does that mean you believe it's useful now?
I hope so.. ^^
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Why would it be Bowser? Fortress is punishable on hit in perfect play.
Ice Climbers, I'd imagine, could perfectly desync attacks to counter every single approach.
He is very, very bad at getting out of his shield when under pressure.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
OH GOD, THIS HAS BEEN COVERED SO MANY TIMES. It is a useless discussion and one which you are factually wrong about. No debate, these are facts, you are wrong.
Fox/Bowser
Falco
Everyone else.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
What? Sucky? It's a great tool to disrupt approaches and instantly make your opponent feel a bit more pressured. It's super fast too. To add to that, I'm pretty sure a lot of characters can do jabs after a powershield though not everyone of them is as effective within that particular situation. PS to gentleman is pretty sexy too, it works. =P
Edit: Perfect play doesn't exist, enough of that crap.
Strife
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2011
- Messages
- 784
@Leffen: People are always biased against low tiers. There initial position is that low tiers sucks and any strengths they have are over shadowed by their weaknesses.
Axe had to get top 2 at national tournaments before accepted Pikachu should move up the tier list. Cosmo was one of the most dominant players in the midwest and no even still no one accepted that Zelda is a better character than the tier list suggests. Jpobs made a great post in the Fox is number 1 thread about how smashers like to be dumb and hold on to preconceived notions and therefore being close-minded to new trends in the game. You can't take it personally.
After watching your vids I do believe that Yoshi is a whole lot more viable than the tier list currently says. High tier is a bit of a stretch though.
Axe had to get top 2 at national tournaments before accepted Pikachu should move up the tier list. Cosmo was one of the most dominant players in the midwest and no even still no one accepted that Zelda is a better character than the tier list suggests. Jpobs made a great post in the Fox is number 1 thread about how smashers like to be dumb and hold on to preconceived notions and therefore being close-minded to new trends in the game. You can't take it personally.
After watching your vids I do believe that Yoshi is a whole lot more viable than the tier list currently says. High tier is a bit of a stretch though.