Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Warhawk]

Didn't t3h Icy do a charcter matchup chart about 2 years ago with discussion threads for the character mains? I remember the numbers from the mains of each character in each matchup rarely matched up lol. I think it'd be pretty cool though if someone tried to do another one that's more up to date with the metagame if we could get enough mains from each characters to discuss and not just give numbers.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

The fact that matchups can't be agreed upon by the top players I think is a testament to the balance in this game (atleast among top/high tiers)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Didn't t3h Icy do a charcter matchup chart about 2 years ago with discussion threads for the character mains? I remember the numbers from the mains of each character in each matchup rarely matched up lol. I think it'd be pretty cool though if someone tried to do another one that's more up to date with the metagame if we could get enough mains from each characters to discuss and not just give numbers.

People having to much trouble agreeing on what the correct MU ratio is, is the reason why I am saying first we should just make all new MU threads for every board, and then somewhere down the line if we r able we can make a MU chart

 

[Warhawk]

People having to much trouble agreeing on what the correct MU ratio is, is the reason why I am saying first we should just make all new MU threads for every board, and then somewhere down the line if we r able we can make a MU chart

Yea, I mean that'd be a lot of work but if someone would be willing to do that that'd be cool. I feel too that a tool like that would be better for making a tier list, though that's just because I think character matchups and not character abilities should affect tier list placement.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

t3h icy did all that. you can look up all the old threads (there was one for each character)

 

[john!]

i heard an interesting statement that "without peach in the game, ice climbers would be top tier

i think this statement has a lot of merit, haha.

most people will want to believe this, because it implies that peach and ic's are both great characters, and few people play either character.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What purpose does a MU Chart serve, anyway?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Reconfirm our bias opinions?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Give a quick view of how good/bad the matchups are?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Give a quick view of how good/bad the matchups are?

Whats the point in that?

As a Ness main, knowing that Fox ****s on me won't help me improve at all, give me any insight into anything useful or contribute to the development of the metagame.

MU ratios should be abolished in favour of summarized overviews of MUs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

aren't MU ratios the same thing as a summerized overview? I mean, for the size (1 screen) you really get a good view of how good a character does vs the rest of the cast. There are literally 325 match-ups in the game, try to put all that information in the size of a screen in another way.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

most people will want to believe this, because it implies that peach and ic's are both great characters, and few people play either character.

I dont think this implies peach is a great character, it just implies that the IC's have a terrible MU vs peach. Also if you look at IC's MU vs top tier characters its honestly a little surprising they r not even in the same lettered tier as peach or falcon, and the only reason one could figure for this is that its b/c they lose very very badly to peach. Anyway I dont think people would want to believe this b/c it pumps up their characters people might believe this b/c if u look at the IC's while taking out peach from the equation they all the sudden look like a very viable option consistent with other top tiers. this is of course imo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

aren't MU ratios the same thing as a summerized overview? I mean, for the size (1 screen) you really get a good view of how good a character does vs the rest of the cast. There are literally 325 match-ups in the game, try to put all that information in the size of a screen in another way.

I'm not going to try and put all that information in one screen because the end result would be pointless...

Every character board should have their own "Official MBR-Approved" match-up thread which lists everything worth noting about the MU from a glance, and there should be links to these threads in a stickied thread in Melee Discussion.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I'm not going to try and put all that information in one screen because the end result would be pointless...

Every character board should have their own "Official MBR-Approved" match-up thread which lists everything worth noting about the MU from a glance, and there should be links to these threads in a stickied thread in Melee Discussion.

by mbr approved do u mean one that gets stickied on the character boards?

And Yes ever character should have a new MU thread so its up to date and well ive said all this b4. And they should be linked to in the melee discussion. I really feel we as a community should be pulling for this to happen.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, it should be stickied.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dont the important characters already have this or similar?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, but it isn't uniform across the boards.

There should be a standard layout and required information for each of them, and many are out of date.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Half the cast doesn't even have a high level player of their character. The other half has the information but in the format of whoever felt like compiling the data. Some are out of date, but not by much.

Does it really matter? The only real way to understand the match-ups are to play them yourself. Whether I write 60:40 or "its hard" or a paragraph explaining it, do you really have any better knowledge of the match-up in a usable way? Not really...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It feels like you are disagreeing with me for the sake of it, Sveet.

I've learnt many match-up tricks from listening to other players.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I dont think it needs to be in a uniform style as long as the info is easy to understand. i do agree with u that many of them are out of date and this needs to be fixed.

Sveet most characters even the low tier ones have some people playing them, plus if u ever want to try to pick one of these characters up a new MU thread could be very useful

If u guys saw earlier I wrote a thing about how I feel these new threads should be run.

 

[Strife]

Whats the point in that?

As a Ness main, knowing that Fox ****s on me won't help me improve at all, give me any insight into anything useful or contribute to the development of the metagame.

MU ratios should be abolished in favour of summarized overviews of MUs.

Abolish MU ratios like they are somehow hurting the community? That's laughable.

No-one will really care to know how to fight Peach as ICs if it's a 90-10 match-up. I may as well switch characters instead of figuring out what works. I would want to know the ratios to know my expected chance of winnings any match-up, so I can adjust my character or mindset accordingly.

This is also a valid point, but we can just as easily say, "Ice Climbers lose to Peach extremely hard. It's almost not worth it, just choose a different character," as we can, "ICs/Peach is 10:90." But with the first method, we don't get bogged down with numbers. Some people might say 70:30, some might say 85:15, others will say 64:36. While I think that MU ratios are quite important for putting MUs in perspective, we all tend to get caught up in the numbers too much. So we should start without them, at least.

I hope that makes sense.

The method you list won't work nearly as effective necause people have different thresholds for what match-up is unplayable. For example I may not want to bother learning any matchup that's 85:15 or worse in my opponent's favor, while another person may not want to bother learning any match up that's 70:30 or worse in his opponent's favor. The only way to quickly display such information is through a match up chart.

Also it's just a bother to read through walls of text to learn something instead of just reading a quick pretty chart.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Peach/ICs isn't even close to 90:10, just fyi.

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, but MU ratios are still good

As long as you take them as they're meant to be taken, they provide a quick, easy way of evaluating a matchup in a very rough manner. You can look at MU paragraphs later if you need to.

 

[Blistering Speed]

@Strife

Ratios are useless to the individual. Foxeach is like, 65:35 IMO, doesn't stop Armada ****** every one of them.

How exactly are you going to "adjust your mindset" dependent on the ratio? Are you going to think you should be losing if the matchup's your character's disadvantage?

Ratios do have their place as a method of summary, just don't put any weight on them as something that's actually significant.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It feels like you are disagreeing with me for the sake of it, Sveet.

I've learnt many match-up tricks from listening to other players.

No you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of it

I dont think it needs to be in a uniform style as long as the info is easy to understand. i do agree with u that many of them are out of date and this needs to be fixed.

Sveet most characters even the low tier ones have some people playing them, plus if u ever want to try to pick one of these characters up a new MU thread could be very useful

If u guys saw earlier I wrote a thing about how I feel these new threads should be run.

Well if there isn't a high level player playing the character, advancing the metagame or at least showing that the character is really capable of, who is going to give the advice? How would it be legitimate?

There were a few people at the mid skill level range playing mario, then mango picked him up for like 5 minutes and was instantly the best mario around. I've seen many high level players just randomly select a character and play them very well.

Knowledge in smash is kinda funny. Theres a lot of fundamental knowledge that goes with each skill level; you either have it or you don't. I can tell you how to maximize output out of a chaingrab and you can memorize it, but if I tell you how to play a match-up you can't just memorize it. Even if you did, you'd just be falsely believing that you were playing correctly eventually causing yourself to plateau. You have to internalize the information which is actually infinitely harder to do from writing than from experience. Theres a reason that there are very few good players that sat around reading guides over and over instead of playing or studying videos.

 

[Strife]

@Strife

Ratios are useless to the individual. Foxeach is like, 65:35 IMO, doesn't stop Armada ****** every one of them.

How exactly are you going to "adjust your mindset" dependent on the ratio? Are you going to think you should be losing if the matchup's your character's disadvantage?

Ratios do have their place as a method of summary, just don't put any weight on them as something that's actually significant.

Ratios are very useful to the individual. If Foxeach is 65:35 in Fox's favor, then the Foxes would know that they shouldn't switch to another character, as the reason their losing is not because of the match-up.

I'd change my mindset because I'll put a lot more effort in(me on the left) 60:40 matchup than I would 20:80 matchup. The feeling you have going into a losing matchup is a lot different than what you have going into a winning matchup.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't really agree with that, you have to understand why a matchup is made a certain way.. which means you have know every situation possible to actually gain the advantage in that matchup, if you don't then you'll probably get defeated just because you didn't know certain things.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well if there isn't a high level player playing the character, advancing the metagame or at least showing that the character is really capable of, who is going to give the advice? How would it be legitimate?

There were a few people at the mid skill level range playing mario, then mango picked him up for like 5 minutes and was instantly the best mario around. I've seen many high level players just randomly select a character and play them very well.

Knowledge in smash is kinda funny. Theres a lot of fundamental knowledge that goes with each skill level; you either have it or you don't. I can tell you how to maximize output out of a chaingrab and you can memorize it, but if I tell you how to play a match-up you can't just memorize it. Even if you did, you'd just be falsely believing that you were playing correctly eventually causing yourself to plateau. You have to internalize the information which is actually infinitely harder to do from writing than from experience. Theres a reason that there are very few good players that sat around reading guides over and over instead of playing or studying videos.

Most characters outside of bottom tier have at least 1 high level player or knowledgeable player (well from yoshi up, not sure about G&W). So the biggest problem is getting good and up to date info on the bottom tier characters, but honestly if we as a community r unable to update their MU threads it would be a shame but at least the vast majority could get up to date threads.

now no one said that having the top players write MU info means that new people should just memorize what is said and play like robots. You r right there is more to this game just just reading guides, but that doesnt mean having up to date guides would hurt anyone ether. Also I bet many of the top players at one time or another needed some MU help and asked or read some guides to help them figure out what they might be doing wrong. Also the idea is to just help people understand MU and then have them play and learn how they best deal with the MU with their own style, as well as helping new players understand MU so they can get into the game easier

 

[Winston]

@Strife

Ratios are useless to the individual. Foxeach is like, 65:35 IMO, doesn't stop Armada ****** every one of them.

How exactly are you going to "adjust your mindset" dependent on the ratio? Are you going to think you should be losing if the matchup's your character's disadvantage?

Ratios do have their place as a method of summary, just don't put any weight on them as something that's actually significant.

Yeah, it's probably more useful to just think of matchups either as "unwinnable" (shouldn't be applicable as long as you're using a non-garbage character), "significantly favored" (this means you can focus more on abusing your character advantages and proper execution), or "winnable" (this is most matchups in the game among characters that people play; they're close enough to even that it doesn't really matter who's actually favored). It's not so much about the ratios as how much you should look at playing vs. the character as opposed to playing vs. the player.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah, it's probably more useful to just think of matchups either as "unwinnable" (shouldn't be applicable as long as you're using a non-garbage character), "significantly favored" (this means you can focus more on abusing your character advantages and proper execution), or "winnable" (this is most matchups in the game among characters that people play; they're close enough to even that it doesn't really matter who's actually favored). It's not so much about the ratios as how much you should look at playing vs. the character as opposed to playing vs. the player.

Truth.

Its a lot of fun to theorysmash tho

 

[choknater]

i really want to discuss ice climbers right now because of the way they affect the tier list. they have a very enigmatic presence in tournaments because the matchup is so awkward to play for most characters, but if someone knows the matchup and really executes it well, it becomes EXTREMELY difficult because ic's can be shut down with a strong offense.

peach is anything from 49:51 ot 1:99. it's just a bad matchup so i'll just leave it off right now. i want to keep in mind NAGACE's friend's claim of ic's being top tier w/o peach.

fox - slight fox. stupid strats like full jump, shine, double jump cancel. or running shine make it hard for ic's to react to stuff. there are very many intricacies and different ways to explain this matchup, but when a friend asked me "why does fox beat ic's," it all boiled down to this: fox has the speed advantage

falco - even. very dynamic matchups, especially with all of ic's anti-laser tricks. very stage specific and falco needs good spacing and also the courage and execution to approach ic's without being punished

sheik - shoutouts to ic's for being sheik's worst matchup and hardest counter. this matchup is just soooo bad for her. basically sheik has to try to run away and needle, and then shield pressure with fair->jab which is pretty good anti-shield stuff. but other than that, ic's find it quite easy to grab her and KO

marth - even. reminds me of ryu vs dhalsim in street fighter. very medium-paced match with many exciting moments, but basically both characters have to respect each other's spacing tools until either one gets in and gains momentum. also a very dynamic matchup where strategies on both sides have to constantly adapt mid-match because there are counter strategies to everything. marth lacks the speed to overpower ic's like fox can

falcon - i can honestly call this a 60:60 matchup. like, i'd call it even, but both characters **** each other SO HARD that it's basically about getting that first hit. ic's main goal is obviously a grab, and since falcon has no projectiles, he basically has to use his body as a projectile and make every attack on ic's shield safe, and force them into bad positions.

i'd say it's in falcon's favor (50:60) if falcon can CONSISTENTLY get out of the dthrow-reverse dair cg, which is pretty much infinite if the falcon doesn't SDI properly and guess the right direction. however as usual, ic's have many grab mixups that will kill falcon anyway, but being able to escape the dair cg is a HUGE asset for falcon.

(IMO Hax is so amazing at this matchup that he makes me think it's slight falcon. but still, **** or be *****.)

puff - another character that, IMO, ic's hard counters. fly generally doesn't go along with me in this regard, or at least not to my extent, but i believe ic's win the matchup 70:30. they can zone out puff's bairs by hiding popo behind nana's blizzard. popo can choose uair if she goes over, wd forward and usmash/fsmash/grab depending on her di if she gets hit by the blizzard, or just wd forward and shield and then react to what she does. in the super close range (like that awkward range where both players shield in front of each other) ic's win by spamming dairs because they have frame advantage over puff's stuff and they combo into each other without letting puff throw out any aerials. they are also one of the few characters that can punish puff's "spaced" short hop bair out of shield. basically i've discovered that ic's ground keepaway game is SO strong that puff has no way to approach besides trying to get in from above, or getting behind them, in which case they can roll/wd away to the other side of the stage and begin keepaway again.

secret technology for puff players against ic's: if the ic is relying a little TOO much on blizzard, you can use that secret level 9 cpu tactic and SDI all the hits of the blizzard toward nana and hit one of the ic's.

doc / samus / luigi / ganon: i feel i don't have enough info on these matchups to make any definite claims. so i will just call them even for now.





hm.. so maybe they're not TOP tier. but they are an awkward but definite threat for any player who has a strong ic in their region. the main reason i want to bring focus to them as a very high potential contender on the tier list is because 1.) they really CAN beat every character but peach 2.) i want more people to play ic's.




just remember though. ic's vs peach is 1:99

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon/ICs is pretty bad for ICs because of the power mainly I'd say like 60-40, I don't even need to try to separate the ICs every move makes it that way lol.

 

[choknater]

from my past experiences, i'd say i personally have lots of trouble with ganon and that it's an uphill battle at my current level. however, from what i've heard and seen from fly, it might be different at the top of the current metagame.

once i am able to play more with Bizz i'll talk more on the matchup

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, it's probably more useful to just think of matchups either as "unwinnable" (shouldn't be applicable as long as you're using a non-garbage character), "significantly favored" (this means you can focus more on abusing your character advantages and proper execution), or "winnable" (this is most matchups in the game among characters that people play; they're close enough to even that it doesn't really matter who's actually favored). It's not so much about the ratios as how much you should look at playing vs. the character as opposed to playing vs. the player.

Especially the bolded part.

Chok: I'd have to see more IC/Puff to really believe that ICs **** her that hard.

And...I can't speak on IC/Peach, cause I've never played it from the Peach side, but...loool... 1:99... Is FC fair > down smash that good?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well choke i was talking with my friend via text message more about this today, sadly since my inbox is way to full i deleted pretty much all of it. But his thoughts r IC's would be around 4 or 5th without peach in the game and they would ether be top tier or marth/peach status. It is funny to think how much one bad MU can affect a characters tier placement. (not saying IC's r low or anything but they r not even in the same lettered tier at the high tier characters all b/c of 1 MU)

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I bet if you summed up all matchups equally, ICs would be like 4th. Now, thats pretty dumb, considering that would put just as much importance in the G&W matchup as the Peach one, but it just goes to show how good ICs are as an overall character.

 

[choknater]

well, another thing is that they don't have the overpowering traits that allow the top tier to easily defeat characters like ganon, samus, and doc. ic's have to work harder against them than the top tiers do

i think they have an excellent niche in the metagame though, especially for dealing with sheik and puff.

 

[The Star King]

Those match-up ratios being described
as win ratios is a terrible wau to
define them. It implies that this game has high variance/is luckbased in results even when the circumstances aren't changed. A stock ratio makes way more sense.

 

[choknater]

what are you talking about

 

[Battlecow]

Be quiet SK

melee peeps know what MU ratios mean; they don't need to correlate them to stock or win % and they don't need to confuse everyone with silly +/- ratings.