Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Battlecow]

I wasn't really trying to boast, just debunking the claims that I'm some poor hippie on a drug fueled rant.

Well, a poor hippie on a drug fueled rant could easily have a 5-figure job and a college degree, so it was a pretty poor debunk.

Why am I still posting about this

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

hey axe i have a question. who do u think has a better MU against space animals, Mario or Pika?

Also anyone else realize that if ylink has the advantage over jiggs this makes him only the 2nd non top tier character to counter a top tier? the other being the ic's. I kinda feel like thats sort of a big deal. (i dont think i am forgetting anyone who counters a top tier but if i am tell me)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Who counters ICs? Are you talking about Zelda? Or do ICs counter Jiggs? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

no i meant the ic's counter sheik. sorry if that was not clear

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Samus counters falco by your definition. I think "counter" is used more for heavy advantages (falco vs falcon) rather than slight advantages (ICs vs Sheik)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Do they counter Sheik, though? And I *think* that most of us can agree that ICs are at least high tier, right? With wobbling, maybe?

 

[Doser]

Considering they have placed well with Fly, Wobbles and Chu Dat I would say they should qualify for high tier.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ICs' tier group doesn't matter. As long as they're 8th, harmony exists.

I suck ****balls at the ICs MU so I'm likely terribly biased but I think they win by a teensy amount. But it's not a hard counter or anything like that. Seems pretty even, it's just that ICs have to do less to win and that's useful in a MU where the opponent's game is largely poking.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

wait since when does samus beat falco? granted i know little about samus and her Mu but that shocks me. I dont see how samus wins that MU, time to research.

Also shrouded for as long as I can remember the IC's had the advantage on sheik

Also i didnt say heavy advantage, I meant slight advantages (slight counters)

Also i was talking about top tier not high tier.

edit: the point wasn't to say pick up ylink so have an easy match or anything just they r in a small group of non top tiers that hold a advantage over a top tier character. just a little thing that imo is kinda funny/good to point out

 

[ShroudedOne]

Trust me, Samus doesn't beat Falco. At best, it's even.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well i am going to have to trust u b/c when i went to the samus boards their MU description was old enough to tell me to take falco to poke floats. and then on the falco boards the MU description was even older. but i really dont see samus having an advantage over falco.

Also i hope my original question is not lost. the one to axe about who does better against the spacies in his opinion mario or pika.

I am kinda happy my post got this thread moving again its been uncharacteristically quit in this thread for the last couple of days

 

[Blistering Speed]

It's not even that. Falco has the advantage.

The misconception's there because HugS said Samus had the slight advantage last year on here, and people just rolled with it because it's HugS. Compound with this with all the ******** Falcos just spamming tech and getting WD back tilted in the face.... the idea appears to have credibility.

 

[Strong Badam]

Trust me, Samus doesn't beat Falco. At best, it's even.

so concinving

 

[ShroudedOne]

Fine. Perhaps that was the wrong wording. But Samus doesn't beat Falco. She just beats Falco's that don't know how to approach, or do the same thing all the time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's not even that. Falco has the advantage.

The misconception's there because HugS said Samus had the slight advantage last year on here, and people just rolled with it because it's HugS. Compound with this with all the ******** Falcos just spamming tech and getting WD back tilted in the face.... the idea appears to have credibility.

Is that why I am saying? Must have nothing to do with discussions and matches as falco against good Samus players.

Between every character above Samus, Falco has the hardest time against her. Falco's laser and shield pressure games are very bad against samus' shield and poke game.

edit- actually ICs might be worse than Falco against Samus. I guess that makes falco 2nd worst against samus.

 

[Strife]

Is that why I am saying? Must have nothing to do with discussions and matches as falco against good Samus players.

Between every character above Samus, Falco has the hardest time against her. Falco's laser and shield pressure games are very bad against samus' shield and poke game.

edit- actually ICs might be worse than Falco against Samus. I guess that makes falco 2nd worst against samus.

I'm not sure if I'm reading your post right. But Falco beats ICs. Maybe not be an awful matchup for them, but it's bad enough(assuming wobbling's off)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think he was saying the ic's do worst against samus then falco does, but i could be wrong in my understanding

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ICs do worse vs Samus than Falco does vs Samus. Fox, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon and Puff all do better than Falco vs Samus.

From experience, playing falco vs samus is actually really hard. Usually lasers are used to force a shield or otherwise effect the opponent's movement, but Samus' shield cant be pressured. Usually you like seeing the opponent shield when you play falco, but now its this fortress of defense. Falco also can't combo Samus very well, which turns the match-up into mostly first hits and spacing. Falco does not do as well as Samus in that regard. I think Samus beats Falco slightly. I am not saying that samus counters falco, which in the end was the whole purpose of bringing up the match-up.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

idk about saying the only point in bringing up a MU is to say something is a hard counter. I feel like even a light advantage is worth mentioning when talking about facing a top tier, but that being said I dont know the samus vs falco Mu that well but i find it hard to imagine its really is samus's favor. And as i said b4 the character boards r woefully out of date when it comes to this MU so idk and i sort of feel we need to bring in top level samus and falco players to discuses this

 

[ShroudedOne]

"So, my thoughts on the falco samus matchup: samus simply shuts down the conventional falco. approaches with dair and nair are shut down (except really well spaced ones). lasering can be postponed with missiles. you get edgeguarded horribly. you cant really combo samus. from what ive seen, people just recommend throwing samus on the ledge and bair camping, which is stupid to think you could do this all game. why does everyone think its 50:50?"

 

[Citizen Snips]

ICs do worse vs Samus than Falco does vs Samus. Fox, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon and Puff all do better than Falco vs Samus.

From experience, playing falco vs samus is actually really hard. Usually lasers are used to force a shield or otherwise effect the opponent's movement, but Samus' shield cant be pressured. Usually you like seeing the opponent shield when you play falco, but now its this fortress of defense. Falco also can't combo Samus very well, which turns the match-up into mostly first hits and spacing. Falco does not do as well as Samus in that regard. I think Samus beats Falco slightly. I am not saying that samus counters falco, which in the end was the whole purpose of bringing up the match-up.

So you're saying Samus shuts down the conventional Falco?

 

[Crooked Crow]

"So, my thoughts on the falco samus matchup: samus simply shuts down the conventional falco. approaches with dair and nair are shut down (except really well spaced ones). lasering can be postponed with missiles. you get edgeguarded horribly. you cant really combo samus. from what ive seen, people just recommend throwing samus on the ledge and bair camping, which is stupid to think you could do this all game. why does everyone think its 50:50?"

Uh. Definitely not.

 

[darkoblivion12]

so, my thoughts on the samus roy matchup: roy simply shuts down the conventional samus. approaches with dair and nair are shut down (except really well spaced ones). missiling can be postponed with fair. you get edgeguarded horribly. you cant really combo roy as well as spacies. from what ive seen, people just recommend throwing roy on the ledge and missile camping, which is stupid to think you could do this all game. why does everyone think its 50:50?

 

[AXE 09]

hey axe i have a question. who do u think has a better MU against space animals, Mario or Pika?

I think Pikachu does, although I don't think Mario does too much worse.

 

[john!]

so, my thoughts on the samus roy matchup: roy simply shuts down the conventional samus. approaches with dair and nair are shut down (except really well spaced ones). missiling can be postponed with fair. you get edgeguarded horribly. you cant really combo roy as well as spacies. from what ive seen, people just recommend throwing roy on the ledge and missile camping, which is stupid to think you could do this all game. why does everyone think its 50:50?

and this is why theorycrafting will ALWAYS be inferior to simply looking at tournament results, as much as the "pro theorycrafters" like to think otherwise

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I think Pikachu does, although I don't think Mario does too much worse.

In that case wouldn't u put pika above mario in the tier list since the ability to fight fox and falco is such a huge part of the meta-game? I mean if u consider them pretty close on the tier list anyway i would feel being slightly better in the spacie MU's would tilt the scale in pika's favor.

edit: oops and thanks shrouded. my bro is playing ww in anticipation for skyward sword in the same room i am in so i got distracted lol

 

[ShroudedOne]

You mean Mario, N.A.G.A.C.E., not Link.

 

[Wake]

I wasn't sure what "ww" meant at first.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Is that why I am saying? Must have nothing to do with discussions and matches as falco against good Samus players.

Between every character above Samus, Falco has the hardest time against her. Falco's laser and shield pressure games are very bad against samus' shield and poke game.

edit- actually ICs might be worse than Falco against Samus. I guess that makes falco 2nd worst against samus.

Sveet, how did you actually get into the backroom? Bribery? Blackmail?

It's frankly impressive to me that you have nearly 11 000 posts and still don't know anything about Melee. That's a real commitment to ignorance.

 

[AXE 09]

In that case wouldn't u put pika above mario in the tier list since the ability to fight fox and falco is such a huge part of the meta-game? I mean if u consider them pretty close on the tier list anyway i would feel being slightly better in the spacie MU's would tilt the scale in pika's favor.

Well I also think Mario does better against Sheik (especially) and Marth, which are also very important matchups.

I think Pika also does better against Falcon, and possibly Samus maybe? Not too sure cuz Mario's cape helps him a lot in that matchup, but Pika's got the KO power.

But Mario does better against IC's, Doc, and possibly Ganon, and not to mention he beats Pika pretty badly in the head to head.

Not too sure about Peach and jiggs.

I still personally put Mario above Pika lol. I just feel like he's better, but not by like a huge amount or anything.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well I also think Mario does better against Sheik (especially) and Marth, which are also very important matchups.

I think Pika also does better against Falcon, and possibly Samus maybe? Not too sure cuz Mario's cape helps him a lot in that matchup, but Pika's got the KO power.

But Mario does better against IC's, Doc, and possibly Ganon, and not to mention he beats Pika pretty badly in the head to head.

Not too sure about Peach and jiggs.

I still personally put Mario above Pika lol. I just feel like he's better, but not by like a huge amount or anything.

really pika isnt good against the ic's? idk why but for some reason i thought he was good against them, but u would know better then me.

I will give u that the sheik and marth MU's r a big deal and a valid reason for putting mario higher then pika, but i just feel that the fox, falco, and falcon (idk wh but everyone and their mothers play falcon) MU r seen so often and r such a big art of the meta-game I could see pika being above mario.

On a related note, its very odd debating with the best pika that pika is better then he says, this is made even odder since I am really kinda indifferent to where these two characters would/should end up on the next tier list.

So since this goes back to my partial tier list I posted, did u agree with my placement of samus being lower then pika and maybe mario as well. (idr if mario was above samus on my list, but when I made the list it was a toss up to me deciding who i considered to be a better character)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs are possibly Pika's worst match-up, along with Sheik and Marth.

 

[Beat!]

Well I also think Mario does better against Marth

Really? I've always seen Mario as an almost-free matchup for Marth, where as Pika "only" is a solid advantage.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ICs are possibly Pika's worst match-up, along with Sheik and Marth.

I believed axe its just for some reason in my mind I thought pika could break them up easily or something. I guess its just a Mu i never really thought of and somehow got a weird idea in my head about it. but now i know.

Also anyone else feel all the character boards should do a quick overhaul of their characters MUs. b/c yesterday I tried to do some research into some MU and I couldn't find anything but really old most likely out of date info. I sort of feel like as a community their should be a overhaul to make smashboards more up to date with the current meta game. I think this would be a great idea b/c if we where to make useful info like MUs up to date and easy to find it would help newcomers figure things out, plus it would keep new people from asking questions that have been asked a thousand times b4. Anyway atm i think this is a good idea but atm its ****ing late.early as hell and i should be sleeping so what i wrote might be dumb (and i am pretty sure i am rambling a little at least so i am going to go now)

 

[Strife]

Sveet, how did you actually get into the backroom? Bribery? Blackmail?

It's frankly impressive to me that you have nearly 11 000 posts and still don't know anything about Melee. That's a real commitment to ignorance.

GTFO with those ad hominems

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Insult =/= Ad hominem

debating nub

 

[Blistering Speed]

Insult =/= Ad hominem

debating nub

Exactly.

I'll elaborate on why Falco wins later. Strife, misuse some more logical fallacies while I'm gone please.

 

[Strife]

Instead of attacking his argument, you attack his character. No fallacy is misused here.

 

[Vyke]

Thelakepostingonafriendsaccountcauseheistoolazy/handsometoswitchtohisown:



zelda is really good at going what i like to call "lesbian hyena" on nana in the IC's match up.

Spiritualism ftw.....opeeen your minds folks.

I want to post Shpongle vids but i think that will take things to far

Zelda will change on the tier list

leave it to me ;D

More likely going down...

but im an optimist

which is why a main low tier in the first place

but lately i must confess....high tier play is very interesting

very option vs option...as apposed to like...im gonna kick you till you bleed out

so im i hope to use lots of characters in tourney

cause i think matchups/stages are what make fighters so interesting

melee especially

but ill always be kicking

dont let the list lead you astray folks

the pool of characters is only growing larger

so lets make like abe Lincolns sac

and START RUNNING A TRAIN!!!

 

[Blistering Speed]

Returning to the statement now I've got time to do more than abuse.

Between every character above Samus, Falco has the hardest time against her. Falco's laser and shield pressure games are very bad against samus' shield and poke game.

Lasers: How? How are lasers weakened? They, like with many characters, keep her locked up in that shield with those awkward OOS options (more on this later), they make damn sure she's staying grounded (not that Samus can do jack in the air anyway), she doesn't have the capacity to camp back. Please, explain how they're "very bad".

Shield pressure: Samus has a ****ty SH and is pretty helpless in the air, so that's not good. She can't shield grab with the slooooowwww grapple, so that's not good. She has up B for a while, but if the Falco's not digging deep and spamming tech, he can control that too. Falco can come in with simple, conditioning strings of aerial>shine>to get out, and Samus can't do jack (or, if this Falco's actually clever, start mixing in all that fancy **** that ***** like shinegrabs and doubleshines to throw them off). Up B is a BIG RISK with either a kill or a combo (yeah, falco actually combos Samus, that's neat) waiting on false prediction. Even if you get it off, players like Mango SDI into the ground consistently for 1% damage anyway. The risk-reward is stacked against her. That leaves WD back, which Falco can follow and continue the cycle, or if he's not feeling certain just leave it. Boom, reset to neutral, repeat till mistake. Falco is controlling the pace, the onus is constantly on Samus.

This all sounds very bad for Falco.

edit- actually ICs might be worse than Falco against Samus. I guess that makes falco 2nd worst against samus.

I don't care about comparative matchups. We're talking about the matchup in a vacuum, who has the advantage.