Official BBR Tier List v7

[Espy Rose]

Sonic would probably have an even match up vs. Falco if it weren't for his jab.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falco/Puff would probably be -1 at worst if it weren't for his jab

 

[Luxord]

Man, I've noticed that you pretty much have something against most of the values on the MU chart. I don't think one can say that Peach's MUs vs Diddy and Oli are "nowhere near [even]" if they're listed there as 0's. It doesn't make sense to cite some MUs as legitimate arguments but then totally dismiss others as invalid. For instance, you can't really say she's "completely invalidated by Falco" if it's only a -1. I also noticed that you said in an eariler post that Falco does not lose to MK. I would say that, if Neon is going by the current MU chart, then Peach does do well against Diddy and Olimar, in addition to Falco.

Agreed on the rest of the post but this, the MU chart (as he later posted) is not that reliable. Outdated and most boards disagree with a LOT of +/-2s arguing for +/-1s instead. But the "it doesn't make sense to cite some MUs as legitimate arguments" statement holds true, he is nitpicking for his arguments.

For falco being -1 eh, probably -2. Illmatic proly knows best anyways considering he kinda plays peach

Mmm, fair enough I guess.

The second response was me pointing out that I know a lot about hitboxes (hence why I'm in the Smash Lab), and that generally Dedede's hitboxes would have priority over Jigglypuff's.

How does pound fair versus D3's aerials and uptilt? I'm guessing depending on spacing it will at least trade hit if not win right? (not that trades are something any jiggly wants, nonetheless from the percent ***** dedede)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Woah, there's a lot of radical opinions here. Marth can't win MUs by greater than +1? Peach is destroyed by Diddy? ZSS isn't high tier?

1.) What non-low tier loses to Marth more than +1? Only Wario because of the grab release and even then it's questionable whether it's actually +2. All of Marth's +2s are against Low Tiers or like Ness, Lucas, Squirtle ...

2.) Peach - if you go by tournament results only - *is* destroyed by Diddy. I never actually claimed that she is though. I only said that her tourney record is pretty dreadful and that it supports a +2 for Diddy more than 0. I think it's +1 anyway.

3.) I only make claims like that because I know my opinion is of no consequence. I do genuinely believe that ZSS - alongside characters like Lucario - have no business being high tier. By results both characters are high tier but I feel like they aren't good enough for it tbh.

About the MU chart, from what I understand, players who were educated about their respective characters were the only ones allowed in the panels for debate. How is such a process neither credible nor reliable? I'm not contradicting you. I simply want clarification.

Let me tell you about these "educated" players then. I was also part of a panel [Wolf] and I saw a couple of things that made me shake my head. Example: Sonic vs Marth;

Espy starts off the serious discussion with a long post, explaining well and thoroughly why the match-up should be considered even. At that point of time the tournament record between these characters on a high level was actually slightly in Sonic's favor. M1keHaze immediately chimes in to confirm his agreement with most - if not all - of Espy's points. Ramin was the third top level player in the discussion but IIRC he kept out of it due to his lack of experience so the two best players available for the match-up - both of them with ample experience in it - claim that it's even.

And yet the MU chart ended up having it as +1 for Marth because the rest of the Marth fanboy-hooligans from the panel overvoted them. Going against all empirical evidence from tourney results and against the well-based opinion of actually educated people. And that's just one match-up out of many that went that way.

 

[Espy Rose]

Pretty much just summed up Sonic Panel's entire issue right there.

 

[infiniteV115]

3.) I only make claims like that because I know my opinion is of no consequence.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
NOW it makes sense!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
NOW it makes sense!

Contrary to what people think my ego is perfectly fine

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't think that's what people think.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dedede does well in this MU because of bair and grab? How refreshing.

This is how Dedede does well in all his matchups.

Add a little of his tilts in, his up smash on the characters it's worth using on and fair vs Wario and you're good.

How does pound fair versus D3's aerials and uptilt? I'm guessing depending on spacing it will at least trade hit if not win right? (not that trades are something any jiggly wants, nonetheless from the percent ***** dedede)

aerial things tend to trade. Rarely do only the disjointed parts of aerial attacks collide.

idk really what you're asking. Up tilt has godlike priority due to a number of factors, so yeah.

 

[Dre89]

Just curious, but how does a puff rest a D3 that's upbing the edge? Wouldn't puff SD from rest's enormous cooldown?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff doesn't use rest off-stage...

 

[infiniteV115]

This is how Dedede does well in all his matchups.

Add a little of his tilts in, his up smash on the characters it's worth using on and fair vs Wario and you're good.


aerial things tend to trade. Rarely do only the disjointed parts of aerial attacks collide.

idk really what you're asking. Up tilt has godlike priority due to a number of factors, so yeah.

That's what I was implying by 'how refreshing'
You see it's called sarcasm.

@Dre, puff edgeguards DDD til he has to use his upB. Then puff edgehogs him so he has to land on stage, then she rests his landing.

 

[Dre89]

Resting his upb seems like it'd be pretty hard if D3 cancels his upb and and tries to move away in his freefall.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's what I was implying by 'how refreshing'
You see it's called sarcasm.

I don't understand. There wasn't any need at all to use sarcasm.

Usually sarcasm is used on humorous statements, or maybe even a statement that is wrong.

For example, me saying 'Oh, one of ZSS's good tools in this MU is d-smash? How refreshing', is neither funny nor intelligent.

imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Resting his upb seems like it'd be pretty hard if D3 cancels his upb and and tries to move away in his freefall.

It isn't.

If he cancels you can actually rest him out of the air really easily if you come from below and it KOs even earlier.

Or you can just wait below him and abuse superior mobility to cover all of his options (grab the ledge if he goes towards it, rest if he doesn't)

 

[Orion*]

But this isn't really true.
I can't speak so much for the other bottom tiers, but I know that Falco's jab is pretty much the reason Zelda goes -3 with him.

Falcos jab isnt safe on hit

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Full jab early cancel is 0 advantage.

Then there's SDI ololol

 

[C.J.]

1.) What non-low tier loses to Marth more than +1? Only Wario because of the grab release and even then it's questionable whether it's actually +2. All of Marth's +2s are against Low Tiers or like Ness, Lucas, Squirtle ...

It's +2 on BF and maybe FD... +1 overall imo

Espy starts off the serious discussion with a long post, explaining well and thoroughly why the match-up should be considered even. At that point of time the tournament record between these characters on a high level was actually slightly in Sonic's favor. M1keHaze immediately chimes in to confirm his agreement with most - if not all - of Espy's points. Ramin was the third top level player in the discussion but IIRC he kept out of it due to his lack of experience so the two best players available for the match-up - both of them with ample experience in it - claim that it's even.

And yet the MU chart ended up having it as +1 for Marth because the rest of the Marth fanboy-hooligans from the panel overvoted them. Going against all empirical evidence from tourney results and against the well-based opinion of actually educated people. And that's just one match-up out of many that went that way.

Everyone should listen to me

Pretty much just summed up Sonic Panel's entire issue right there.

Nope- hitboxes and grabs. Marth wins +3
Also, dtilt and bair

That's what I was implying by 'how refreshing'
You see it's called sarcasm.

Lol'd
(sorry)

Full jab early cancel is 0 advantage.

Then there's SDI ololol

Is that assuming landing lag from being popped up from the jab?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yes it is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wow, **** has come a long way.

I never ever thought anyone would ever talk about zss as a top tier character and not get laughed at

Ironically all of the relevant ZSS players have quit now, i think. :\

If ZSS is top tier we won't ever know (and I don't think she is anyway tbh) because she takes hours and hours of technical and mechanical practice that people just aren't willing to commit something that isn't a sure thing at this point in the game's lifespan. #10 is a pretty cozy spot for a character that was considered basically worthless 2 years ago and frankly I think her current placement is generous, all things considered.

ZSS is one of the few characters who really does require tech practice and unless one of the best players in the world picks her up we'll never see it actualized, especially since Salem has quit.

 

[hichez50]

Ice Climbers takes practice. I think it is more of a theory vs practice issue. People are timid into going head on. I don't think anyone ever doubted that ZSS was bad.

 

[z00ted]

Everything Gheb says is right about Peach.
Except for the fact that all Peaches have a bad record against Diddy.

The only time I've lost against Diddy is once against Gnes, and I still managed to take a game.
I've beaten every other notable Diddy player faced in tournament 2-0.
Can't speak for the rest of our players, though.

Falco is hard, but not as hard as Snake or MK @ Orion. Still a -2, though.

He's simply too hard to catch. Peach is way too slow, and double laser really messes with our float approach option, which is usually how we advance against three fourths of the characters in the game. With the absence of RC and Brinstar practically everywhere now, there is absolutely no way she will ever be -1 against him again.



-3:
-2:
-1:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I still don't see Marth as -2 and would add other characters @-1. I agree with the other stuff though.

 

[infiniteV115]

@SFP
It's possible to be top tier and still be #10.
Salem didn't have much to 'quit', he only went to 3 tournaments AFAIK.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

woah. when did peach lose the oli mu? is this because of what nietono did to illmatic at apex?

 

[Peachy-Desu]

There's more issues involved with the Peach Oli Mu. It more or less relies on Oli pikmin management. Yellows and Purples are what screw peach over in the long run, as yellow give Olimar disjointed range which messes up approaching him from the air and ground. Not to mention Purples which ko her stupidly early, and at worst clash with her moves. This means peach has trouble counter picking oli to stages where his recovery can easily be gimped, because he will indeed get more purples and yellows putting the MU slightly in his favor again.

Factor in Peach's horrible KO power, and how Oli's don't really seem to have an issue getting back to the stage and you have a pretty :/ mu going for Peach since her shield pressure and gimping ability doesn't really exist anymore.

 

[z00ted]

Wow, that was a great writeup lol.

 

[Eddie G]

Yeah it was haha, well done. I feel the same way about the matchup.

 

[Gnes]

Illmatic stop posting on smashboards and play marvel

 

[Sinister Slush]

Let me tell you about these "educated" players then. I was also part of a panel [Wolf] and I saw a couple of things that made me shake my head.

And yet the MU chart ended up having it as +1 for Marth because the rest of the Marth fanboy-hooligans from the panel overvoted them. Going against all empirical evidence from tourney results and against the well-based opinion of actually educated people. And that's just one match-up out of many that went that way.

Funny how this also works for Yoshi in MU's like Diddy Kong Wario Luigi Kirby... and I think Ice Climbers too?

 

[Doc King]

I just want to say something about the Dedede vs. Puff matchup and it's really horrible for Puff. Grim, you are forgetting this one factor where Puff can't DI out of D3's D throw despite being a lightweight. With this in mind, Dedede can actually send her far offstage without any fear off DI and can pull off some special Waddle Doo traps where Puff can't tech away from it. D3 can also pull off stage specific like Brinstar acid and upward slopes and team combo traps like Luigi's Shoryuken.

You are also forgetting that Dedede's physics are good for puff like he has probably the biggest surviving advantage in the whole game (Or at least one of the best), Has much better power and can out do her air attacks, has much better damage, doesn't have to fear camping of any kind, can outrange many attacks, and Puff can't DI Dedede's D throw (Which I earlier mentioned).

I would say it's -3 for Jigglypuff. Her only advantage is speed (Kind of) and edge guarding (Which D3 has). I even believe it's one of Puff's worst matchups (Along with a handful of others).

It seems that people take Dedede way too Weight based and will say every lightweight is good against him and everyone else sucks against him. Hell, you could just take a weight chart and call it his matchup chart.

I think Dedede is much more tier based than weight based. I mean look at Snake (I'm calling it -1 for Dedede and Coney and a few others think so as far as I know), Diddy Kong, and Climbers. Best characters who can get chaingrabbed but Dedede losses because he can't challenge them with items and very special metagames. When you look at Jigglypuff, Squirtle, and Zelda, they really don't have many options against Dedede (Maybe Zelda a bit). They just die off to quickly and are forced to approach.

This is like saying Zelda beats Pikachu because Zelda can't get chaingrabbed.

Dedede might seem to be a bit weight gimmicky but he isn't 100 ****ing percent whole weight gimmicky.

Edit: I agree with D3 being Borderline tier. He does have the same thing as them like he does good against a couple of characters (+2 on Wario and Lucario), but he does have major flaws that prevent him from being a solid good character. Basically an alright character, but not good.

 

[-LzR-]

The King has spoken. You truly are screwed Grim Tuesday, IF that is your real name!

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Okay, that has to be trolling.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I reserve the right to claim I didn't read that post.

Though it will be difficult to otherwise explain how I gouged out my eyes...

EDIT: Upon re-reading, the biggest clutch in The King's argument is that Dedede can combo his down throw into Luigi's Shoryuken. That settles it, Dedede ***** Puff.

 

[Zano]

Illmatic stop posting on smashboards and play marvel

Gnes stop posting on smashboards and add me on psn.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Illmatic stop posting on smashboards and play marvel

Gnes stop posting on smashboards and add me on psn.

WHY DOESNT THIS FORUM HAVE A LIKE BUTTON YET?!

Dumb stuff.

anybody posting on the puff vs ddd conversation:

if youre in America, and you havent played San or Mink, then your opinion on puff as a character (and subsequently, any of her matchups) is pretty much worthless.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

if youre in America, and you havent played San or Mink, then your opinion on puff as a character (and subsequently, any of her matchups) is pretty much worthless.

I tip my hat to you.

 

[Kuro~]

Incidentally i've played both san and mink's puff

Dat obscure unnecessary mu knowledge...

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've only played Espy's Jigglypuff.
But even without playing any of the slightly notable Jiggly's, I know she's a force to be reckoned with.

Along with thinking she should be above Captain Falcon...

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Captain falcon sucks ***