Official BBR Tier List v7

[TheReflexWonder]

In the current state of the game, they're both pretty awful.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

anybody posting on the puff vs ddd conversation:

if youre in America, and you havent played San or Mink, then your opinion on puff as a character (and subsequently, any of her matchups) is pretty much worthless.

I love you unbelievable amounts.

 

[Blacknight99923]

you guys don't know the power of san diego jiggles!

Every SD player has a jiggs.

and so does choco!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

And so does Vato. He beat fox16's Kirby

 

[Cassio]

In socal we dont fight with jiggs, we dance battle.

 

[DMS]

Looks like I'm even more of a Tierwhorë now. Congrats for Oli and his placings.

 

[Gnes]

Gnes stop posting on smashboards and add me on psn.

LOL Kid, and also whats your Psn?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

not that it matters too much but for those of you interested in learning about all the stuff we kept hidden in the pit boards i went and made all of my youtube guides public (except for one, but ill make it public after hobo this month) and i also made public all of my games against gnes razer trela pj and sync public as well. if you wanna check em out check out my youtube channel, here is a video so you can get to my channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-575ND2k1iI#t=220s

edit:

they weren't public before because i didn't want every character and their mother knowing what i would do in tournament, but hey, since so many people are using pit i figured this would be a good place to post access to the vids so people can pick him up (word of advice, there is a video called tutorial and a video called innnovative tutorial, just watch the latter, tutorial is a mess up)

 

[Seagull Joe]

And so does Vato. He beat fox16's Kirby

Loooooooooool. vs actually isn't that bad. It's probably -1 for . Back in 2009 I went against ChuDat in tourney and the matches were close because 's normal stuff doesn't work on her except for 's spike.

not that it matters too much but for those of you interested in learning about all the stuff we kept hidden in the pit boards i went and made all of my youtube guides public (except for one, but ill make it public after hobo this month) and i also made public all of my games against gnes razer trela pj and sync public as well. if you wanna check em out check out my youtube channel, here is a video so you can get to my channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-575ND2k1iI#t=220s

edit:

they weren't public before because i didn't want every character and their mother knowing what i would do in tournament, but hey, since so many people are using pit i figured this would be a good place to post access to the vids so people can pick him up (word of advice, there is a video called tutorial and a video called innnovative tutorial, just watch the latter, tutorial is a mess up)

@The vid: That was neat.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Socal is the jigglypuff capital of the world. the reason low tier tournaments aren't hosted would be because all 20 entrants would use jiggs. There is no way any other region is so saturated with pocket jiggly puffs.

Socal without jiggs is like melee without mango.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

@seagull

thanks lol, i figured that would be a good eye catcher for my stuffz

 

[Lukingordex]

Loooooooooool. vs actually isn't that bad. It's probably -1 for . Back in 2009 I went against ChuDat in tourney and the matches were close because 's normal stuff doesn't work on her except for 's spike.

This MU is funny,cool and pink.

 

[bubbaking]

Falco/Puff would probably be -1 at worst if it weren't for his jab

Really??? But....how would Jiggs ever get in? She doesn't have lasers and Falco's aerials and speed are good enough to punish Jiggs for approaching from the air...or on the ground. IMO, this MU is +3 for Falco. :/

Agreed on the rest of the post but this, the MU chart (as he later posted) is not that reliable. Outdated and most boards disagree with a LOT of +/-2s arguing for +/-1s instead.

I get what you're saying, but I'm surprised that you would see this MU chart as outdated. It was last updated at the end of March this year. That's way more recent than what we have in Melee. Our latest MU chart for that game was updated at the end of 2010.

1.) What non-low tier loses to Marth more than +1? Only Wario because of the grab release and even then it's questionable whether it's actually +2. All of Marth's +2s are against Low Tiers or like Ness, Lucas, Squirtle ...

3.) I only make claims like that because I know my opinion is of no consequence. I do genuinely believe that ZSS - alongside characters like Lucario - have no business being high tier. By results both characters are high tier but I feel like they aren't good enough for it tbh.

1) Well, I'd say G&W, Luigi, and PT. G&W is simply outranged and when you outrange Watch, the MU becomes really hard for him. In fact, G&W will be trying to space but by outspacing him, Marth gets himself into tipper range. Even offstage, Marth's upB is better and more lethal than Watch's, so he's always gonna get the ledge. I guess Luigi should be low-tier so perhaps his MU with Marth shouldn't count. IMO, Luigi should be switched with Lucas in the current tier list. Going by the current, "unreliable" MU chart, the PT:Marth MU is +3 for Marth. Even if this is a little BS, I don't think the MU could be blown that far out of proportion, and I don't think the problem can be equated to only Squirtle, either.

3) So then, which char do you think is actually good enough for high tier?

Let me tell you about these "educated" players then. I was also part of a panel [Wolf] and I saw a couple of things that made me shake my head. Example: Sonic vs Marth;

Espy starts off the serious discussion with a long post, explaining well and thoroughly why the match-up should be considered even. At that point of time the tournament record between these characters on a high level was actually slightly in Sonic's favor. M1keHaze immediately chimes in to confirm his agreement with most - if not all - of Espy's points. Ramin was the third top level player in the discussion but IIRC he kept out of it due to his lack of experience so the two best players available for the match-up - both of them with ample experience in it - claim that it's even.

And yet the MU chart ended up having it as +1 for Marth because the rest of the Marth fanboy-hooligans from the panel overvoted them. Going against all empirical evidence from tourney results and against the well-based opinion of actually educated people. And that's just one match-up out of many that went that way.

Wow, I didn't know the creation process was so skewed. Perhaps the BBR should get their priorities straight about how much weight it gives to certain opinions and such.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

IIRC the same thing happened with ZSS vs. Wario. nickriddle says even. A million wario secondaries say it's +2 or something. Ends up -1.

ZSS vs. Marth as well.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, ZSS vs Marth ended up being listed as 0. Is that really so far off from the truth?

@Dre, puff edgeguards DDD til he has to use his upB. Then puff edgehogs him so he has to land on stage, then she rests his landing.

You know D3 can mix up his recovery by going for the stage and immediately cancelling it to grab the ledge the moment you let go, right? You can cancel the upB really close to the ledge and still grab it (going up or down). Or he can fake going for you in a kamikaze attack (or he can just actually go for you).

I don't think anyone ever doubted that ZSS was bad.

I'm guessing you mean "good" instead of "bad"?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It did? Oh, it did. Whoops!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1) Well, I'd say G&W, Luigi, and PT. G&W is simply outranged and when you outrange Watch, the MU becomes really hard for him. In fact, G&W will be trying to space but by outspacing him, Marth gets himself into tipper range. Even offstage, Marth's upB is better and more lethal than Watch's, so he's always gonna get the ledge. I guess Luigi should be low-tier so perhaps his MU with Marth shouldn't count. IMO, Luigi should be switched with Lucas in the current tier list. Going by the current, "unreliable" MU chart, the PT:Marth MU is +3 for Marth. Even if this is a little BS, I don't think the MU could be blown that far out of proportion, and I don't think the problem can be equated to only Squirtle, either.

Luigi and PT are both Low Tier characters and Marth has GR shenanigans against Squirtle. I do not agree that Marth beats GW by that much although it's probably the closest thing to a +2 he has against a non-low tier non-grab release character ... still think it's only -1 though.

3) So then, which char do you think is actually good enough for high tier?

Pit & Fox

IIRC the same thing happened with ZSS vs. Wario. nickriddle says even. A million wario secondaries say it's +2 or something. Ends up -1.

ZSS vs. Marth as well.

To be fair though, Wario beating ZSS has not been decided by "a million wario secondaries" ... it was mainly Bassem and Chair [IIRC] who vouched for it to be in Wario's favor and both actually have experience in this match-up. I felt like it were the ZSS players that pushed for it as even but didn't have the same level of experience. Sadly, this match-up isn't played a lot overall though but I hear Seibrik recently beat MacGriddle with Wario. +1 Wario favor doesn't seem as much of a stretch as other things on the chart and I can agree with the sentiments of the Wario players behind it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

To be fair though, Wario beating ZSS has not been decided by "a million wario secondaries" ... it was mainly Bassem and Chair [IIRC] who vouched for it to be in Wario's favor and both actually have experience in this match-up. I felt like it were the ZSS players that pushed for it as even but didn't have the same level of experience. Sadly, this match-up isn't played a lot overall though but I hear Seibrik recently beat MacGriddle with Wario. +1 Wario favor doesn't seem as much of a stretch as other things on the chart and I can agree with the sentiments of the Wario players behind it.

Slikvik beat NR back at Mlg Dc.

 

[bubbaking]

@SFP
It's possible to be top tier and still be #10.
Salem didn't have much to 'quit', he only went to 3 tournaments AFAIK.

How did he only go to 3 tournaments and still get listed as the second best ZSS in NA? (O_o)

Factor in Peach's horrible KO power, and how Oli's don't really seem to have an issue getting back to the stage and you have a pretty :/ mu going for Peach since her shield pressure and gimping ability doesn't really exist anymore.

Ummm, what? I thought Olimar was one of the easiest chars to gimp, especially on stages tailored towards killing him, like Frigate and Lylat. I understand how he gets a better frequency of purple and yellow pikmin, but it shouldn't be any harder to edgehog him once you actually get him offstage, especially with Peach's floating ability, which leads me to my question. How does Peach's gimping ability not "really exist anymore?"

Luigi and PT are both Low Tier characters

Well, combine a high tier (my opinion of squirtle), a mid tier (charizard) and a low tier (ivysaur) and you get...a mid tier.

Pit & Fox

This is one statement I agree wholeheartedly with. Although, I don't believe they should be listed in high tier while ZSS and Lucario are not.

I mean look at Snake (I'm calling it -1 for Dedede and Coney and a few others think so as far as I know), Diddy Kong, and Climbers. Best characters who can get chaingrabbed but Dedede losses because he can't challenge them with items and very special metagames.

Alright, I'm not gonna say anything about the rest of your post. I don't mean to offend, but your post.....is not going to be taken seriously by pretty much anyone, even if you're not trolling. I just have a pet peeve about wrong facts (don't care about opinions) going around, so I'm gonna inform you that most of the D3's agreed that Snake:DDD is even. Snake gets better camping and weight. D3 gets CG shenanigans and better falling speed.

WHY DOESNT THIS FORUM HAVE A LIKE BUTTON YET?!

Because like buttons breed nonsense, and nonsense breeds nonsensical madness.

 

[bubbaking]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Chuee]

How did he only go to 3 tournaments and still get listed as the second best ZSS in NA? (O_o)

By beating people like Will, Kingtoon, and Nick Riddle.

 

[bubbaking]

Loooooooooool. vs actually isn't that bad. It's probably -1 for . Back in 2009 I went against ChuDat in tourney and the matches were close because 's normal stuff doesn't work on her except for 's spike.

Back in '09, though... Kirby's spike still works on Jiggs? Can't she meteor cancel it simply with a jump?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Loooooooooool. vs actually isn't that bad. It's probably -1 for . Back in 2009 I went against ChuDat in tourney and the matches were close because 's normal stuff doesn't work on her except for 's spike

All Kirby has really is bair and fsmash.

Of course, given the logic of the people in this thread, that makes the MU -3 no doubt.

There is no way any other region is so saturated with pocket jiggly puffs.

Everyone thinks they have a pocket Puff, but they are usually bad xD

Really??? But....how would Jiggs ever get in? She doesn't have lasers and Falco's aerials and speed are good enough to punish Jiggs for approaching from the air...or on the ground. IMO, this MU is +3 for Falco. :/

Falco's aerials are out-ranged by Puff's, though, that argument probably only works in Dedede vs. Puff's favour or something silly like that.

Just watch Mink playing against various Falcos. The MU is fine.

You know D3 can mix up his recovery by going for the stage and immediately cancelling it to grab the ledge the moment you let go, right? You can cancel the upB really close to the ledge and still grab it (going up or down). Or he can fake going for you in a kamikaze attack (or he can just actually go for you).

He can do x and y and z for sure, but Puff has a whole alphabet to counter with so it doesn't really matter in practice.

 

[san.]

Falco vs Jigglypuff isn't much worse than -1. I thought it was easier in the past but good falcos can make it tricky.

DDD is probably bad only because of his weight. I haven't fought any good DDDs with Jigglypuff but it would probably be annoying. -1/-2? DDD will probably take a crapload of damage recovering but not actually die.

 

[bubbaking]

All Kirby has really is bair and fsmash.

Of course, given the logic of the people in this thread, that makes the MU -3 no doubt.

Well, to be fair, Kirby's bair = Puff's fair + bair and those are all Jiggs has. I don't think she has much of an fsmash.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well, to be fair, Kirby's bair = Puff's fair + bair and those are all Jiggs has. I don't think she has much of an fsmash.

hahaha, I love this post.

not sarcasm btw

 

[DMG]

Wario's edge on ZSS isn't that big. It's pretty even. 55:45 is most likely. 6:4 would be a bit generous for Wario if you value how hard it is for her to kill him on the higher end of the scale.

 

[Tesh]

Damn, Maharba. You should make some kind of low definition combo video.

 

[bubbaking]

Why isn't Maharba on the list for one of the best Pits in NA?

The idea in this MU is that you don't use downB until you see a bair coming at you. Obviously if you threw them out randomly they'd be easy to punish.
And for the ZSS to downB OVER you, she'd either have to be doing it while you attempt to ff bair her (so she avoids it and you can't uair her) or she's right beside you...and idk why you would ever want to be there, you'd just get uaired.

In re-reading this post, I just realized that I wouldn't mind trading with ZSS's uair. DDD isn't dying off the top for a while, even if her uair is fresh, and I'd gladly trade if it meant gimping ZSS. Sorry, just felt like I had to say it before the topic was truly gone forever.

 

[da K.I.D.]

All Kirby has really is bair and fsmash.

I honestly cant tell if youre saying in relation to kirby against puff, or generally, as a character.

 

[Judo777]

Wario's edge on ZSS isn't that big. It's pretty even. 55:45 is most likely. 6:4 would be a bit generous for Wario if you value how hard it is for her to kill him on the higher end of the scale.

Doesnt ZSS have something real gay on wario?

 

[infiniteV115]

^
AFAIK the regrab infinite on Wario is hard cause you can't simply buffer the regrab
If you're talking about the dsmash-->pivot grab-->air release-->repeat, it doesn't work unless for SOME reason you grab Wario when he both can't bike AND can't DJ...and chances are that that's never happening.

We get air release--> any aerial + usmash + upB, but usmash and dair aren't really that special and Wario's hard as **** to grab anyway. I have like no experience in this MU but 55:45 Wario's advantage sounds reasonable.

@Gheb, Bassem has ZSS experience? Against whom? O.o

 

[Luxord]

By beating people like Will, Kingtoon, and Nick Riddle.

Apex placing is what really did it.

@bubba - even if DDD can mix up his recovery how can he possibly avoid getting baired edgeguarded by jiggs? Not saying it's simple for a jiggs to get him off-stage but once he is, jiggs aerial control is so much better with her insanely good horiztontal movement v DDDs fall speed and poor jumps.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Apex placing is what really did it.

@bubba - even if DDD can mix up his recovery how can he possibly avoid getting baired edgeguarded by jiggs? Not saying it's simple for a jiggs to get him off-stage but once he is, jiggs aerial control is so much better with her insanely good horiztontal movement v DDDs fall speed and poor jumps.

Im pretty sure his fall speed helps him... I mean, if D3 gets above the stage, then so long as he dodge Jiggs correctly just once, he gets to the ground cuz his falling speed. If he fell slower, it would make it much worse for him as Jiggs would be able to keep up with his falling.

But regardless, what does the Jiggs vs D3 MU have anything relevant to the tier list? I mean, this MU pretty much never happens. Ever.

 

[Zano]

^


@Gheb, Bassem has ZSS experience? Against whom? O.o

Bassem used to come to texas a lot

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Why isn't Maharba on the list for one of the best Pits in NA?

because i have to play people like ultimate razer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlvgULiQJrA and illmatic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUA4W9m1p40 and denti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aniZ3YMXBo and trela (didn't save any tourney vids with him) and then i run into people like good ol' tree and killik and kprime who use obscure *** characters (sheiks and pikachu, wtf) meanwhile all my friends are getting people who use snake (diska and jrugs etc) and olimar (skypirate etc) and falco and wolf and (all my favorite MUs). and this is every tournament i go too. and then when i do **** people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElch7YG3ZY or do pretty good against higher level players in friendlies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ5kv1PaKb4&list=UUsOy2X6gEclSCyFlDOUKBCQ&index=1&feature=plcp well it's just friendlies so no-one can pay attention to it even if they think im good.

although tbh i shouldn't be johning. i just need to get better. hence why im gonna come outta nowhere and win hobo 38 and get that extra $1000 yes sir.

 

[Tesh]

Nope, just a really trick grab release the doesn't work when platforms are around and if you screw up, you take 20+ damage or die.

Its also just extremely risky to risk whiffing a grab with ZSS against a character with kill moves.

@v115, yea TX has and had alot of good ZSS rep.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You do need to get better, Maharba. We all do, especially since you didn't know Yoshi couldn't jump OoS.

 

[bubbaking]

because i have to play people like ultimate razer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlvgULiQJrA and illmatic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUA4W9m1p40 and denti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aniZ3YMXBo and trela (didn't save any tourney vids with him) and then i run into people like good ol' tree and killik and kprime who use obscure *** characters (sheiks and pikachu, wtf) meanwhile all my friends are getting people who use snake (diska and jrugs etc) and olimar (skypirate etc) and falco and wolf and (all my favorite MUs). and this is every tournament i go too. and then when i do **** people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElch7YG3ZY or do pretty good against higher level players in friendlies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ5kv1PaKb4&list=UUsOy2X6gEclSCyFlDOUKBCQ&index=1&feature=plcp well it's just friendlies so no-one can pay attention to it even if they think im good.

although tbh i shouldn't be johning. i just need to get better. hence why im gonna come outta nowhere and win hobo 38 and get that extra $1000 yes sir.

Well, you still take games off of notable players in tourney and advance pretty far in regional brackets and stuff like that, right? I mean, John12346 somehow got on the list, and look at his tournament record. Not a single 1st place in sight. Heck, he was barely on our PR for some time. In fact.....now I'm wondering how people get on that list in the first place.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You don't have to win tournaments to be on a top 5 list; you just have to show that you're better than every other user of that character.