Official BBR Tier List v7

[Espy Rose]

You don't have to win tournaments to be on a top 5 list

The best part is that no one cares unless you do.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, fine by me.

That won't stop people from arguing for themselves and circle-jerking of people's own regions.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

meh, i don't get out to tournies often anymore and never place top 5 (getting top 5 at a hobo is like getting top 5 at a mini national) so no i don't have very good placing to back it up either.

@slush

it's true, i never thought anyone would actually play yoshi in a competitive environment so i never ever studied him. tbh i still haven't but now that i have a pocket falco and a pocket MK even if i manage to lose with pit game 1 games 2/3 are mine now. see you at hobo gfs slush

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol at thinking a pocket MK/Falco with no MU experience will beat a smart Yoshi. Unless you're clearly better at the game, youre still going to lose. Those are like, every single Yoshis most played MUs, and we have traps, setups, etc that will screw with anyone unfamiliar with the MU. If you wanna be ignorant and just think a simple CP will beat him, thats fine, but once you lose again because you didnt study the MU, you'll be beating yourself up over why you didnt look into that.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no i actually have always used falco just never tried him against yoshi. and while MK is new to my roster im better with him on brinstar than i am with pit, however not the same can be said about RC. my pit owns RC.

but now that i know he can't jump outta shield and have played slush a few times and the friendlies i got in with poltergust im pretty confident that i have the basic idea of how to win with pit (my main) and if for some reason i can't properly force a bad situation with pit i will either use falco, luigi, or MK based on the stage (*****es don't know about my pocket luigi. soon to be released to the world) all of whom can really put the hurt on someone who has no true options against proper shield pressure (which im sure i will handle just fine with pit).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Most tournaments, with the destruction of the Unity Ruleset, have been banning not only MK... but Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar as well.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think Toon link should be above DDD and DDD should be in a tier by himself

 

[vato_break]

DDD sucks


literally.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yeah, but he destroys almost eveyrone below him

 

[da K.I.D.]

Having a peculiar matchup spread isn't valid ground for having your own tier.

 

[P.I.E.]

Lawlz. just glad ness didnt move down x3

 

[bubbaking]

Most tournaments, with the destruction of the Unity Ruleset, have been banning not only MK... but Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar as well.

Well, actually, there are still a lot of MK legal tourneys, enough for everyone to consider either picking him up or remembering how to fight him. In addition, a few tourneys have also been banning PS2 in addition to RC and Brinstar.

I think Toon link should be above DDD and DDD should be in a tier by himself

But D3 beats more of top and high tier than TL does, and he does waaay better against everyone below them.

 

[BSP]

D3 also has multiple -2s (mostly high tier as well) and a -3 compared to Toon Link only having one -2 and then going -1 or better with everyone else.

Beating low tiers is good and all, but it's probably better to go evenish with them than to get destroyed/countered by the more prominent metagame threats.

 

[allshort17]

But D3 beats more of top and high tier than TL does, and he does waaay better against everyone below them.

However, TL doesn't get stomped by the people above him. Most of the people below him don't matter because they are barely played (check John #'s chart. I believe the high tier and above are played %85 of the time.) I'm only counting -2 and worse matches as counters. So, Dedede has 1 higher tier counter for him (Wario) but 7 higher tier counters against him and a -3 Mu. On the other hand, TL has 1 high tier counter against him (MK) and none for him.

If we go into the +/- 1 section, then TL has a positive MU against Ic's, which only four characters in the game have, while Dedede has a positive MU against Snake, Lucario and Marth.

3 high tier +1's, 1 high tier +2's, 0 high tier -1's, 6 high tier -2's, and 1 high tier -3
vs
1 high tier +1, 0 high tier +2's, 5 high tier -1's, 1 high tier -2, and 0 high tier -3

I think TL is doing better. However, since Dedede is used as a secondary more gets more money, boosting him above TL. I believe TL is better and should be above Dedede, but until he starts making more money than Dedede he won't be.

Edit: Curse you BSP!

 

[Delta-cod]

no i actually have always used falco just never tried him against yoshi. and while MK is new to my roster im better with him on brinstar than i am with pit, however not the same can be said about RC. my pit owns RC.

but now that i know he can't jump outta shield and have played slush a few times and the friendlies i got in with poltergust im pretty confident that i have the basic idea of how to win with pit (my main) and if for some reason i can't properly force a bad situation with pit i will either use falco, luigi, or MK based on the stage (*****es don't know about my pocket luigi. soon to be released to the world) all of whom can really put the hurt on someone who has no true options against proper shield pressure (which im sure i will handle just fine with pit).

Having a Falco/MK will do nothing for you if you're unfamiliar with how the MU works against Yoshi specifically.

 

[BSP]

Pocket characters shouldn't work anymore at this point.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't understand how "pocket character" has come to be synonymous with "doesn't know anything about matchups."

It's considered a pocket character because you only pull them out for a small handful of matchups, so unless you're bad, dumb, or they're a standard secondary instead of a pocket character, you're going to have working knowledge for any matchup you would pull them out for. >_>

 

[BSP]

It's considered a pocket character because you only pull them out for a small handful of matchups,

That's sounds like a secondary imo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's sounds like a secondary imo.

I think that's only because everyone slowly started associating the use of pocket characters for certain matchups with people losing, and so the distinction was lost.

Otherwise, it just takes a loss to someone much better than you to turn your secondary into a pocket character.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have Bowser as a pocket character for DK and no one else because:
a) It isn't that bad for Bowser at all
b) DK will rarely know the MU
c) I can use Bowser
d) Puff vs. DK is really hard

Pocket characters work :/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Toon link should be above DDD and DDD should be in a tier by himself

I agree TL is better than king dedede, but then again, so are Lucario and most of borderline tier + like Sonic LOL

Dedede is terrible, and he doesn't need his own tier. Just put him in mid tier where he belongs and be done with it. I don't understand why people are so reluctant to admit King Dedede has fallen off hard.

Also Wario and Marth might be appropriately placed now but neither belong in top tier, just put them in high tier.

Also Sonic is still too low. I don't think like, ****ing Peach will ever have the level of relative success that Sonic has had in this lifetime. I know placings aren't everything but there reaches a point where you have to go "OK, maybe this actually works and people aren't just bad."

 

[SaveMeJebus]

DDD is too good for mid tiers. He would dominate. He's the only character that really deserves to be in that borderline tier

Having a peculiar matchup spread isn't valid ground for having your own tier.

MK 10mks

But D3 beats more of top and high tier than TL does, and he does waaay better against everyone below them.

TL doesn't really lose to anyone other than MK

 

[~ Gheb ~]

TL doesn't really lose to anyone other than MK

MK, Snake, Falco, Wolf and Olimar beat Toon Link. Probably DDD too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DDD is too good for mid tiers. He would dominate. He's the only character that really deserves to be in that borderline tier

That is stupid lol

You could just do mid tier tournaments with Dedede banned

Its a SIDE tournament, a more accurate tier list matters more.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How is that stupid? If there where ever a reason to have a borderline tier, this would be it

MK, Snake, Falco, Wolf and Olimar beat Toon Link. Probably DDD too.

Other than MK, those match ups are not that bad for TL. Also, most of the characters you just mentioned also destroy DDD and that's not including Diddy (even with TL) ICs (even or +1 for TL) and Pikachu (even with TL) just to name a few

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wasn't making a comparison between TL and DDD ... I just wanted to fix your incorrect statement on TL's match-up. He doesn't beat IC at all btw that match-up is like 0 or +1 for ICs.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I wasn't making a comparison between TL and DDD ... I just wanted to fix your incorrect statement on TL's match-up. He doesn't beat IC at all btw that match-up is like 0 or +1 for ICs.

I wasn't wrong. Most of those match up s are -1 at worst which means he doesn't "really lose" them. His only real solid disadvantage is MK

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How is that stupid? If there where ever a reason to have a borderline tier, this would be it

Accurate position > other random things

Borderline tier is fine as long as he is actually borderline (i.e. noticeably worse than the tier above him but noticeable better than the one below him).

 

[Lukingordex]

I am a little confused about the Borderline Tier,are they too good to become a Mid Tier or are they too bad to become a High Tier?

 

[Life]

^Pretty much both, actually. Although most were top-of-mid last list (GnW being the exception, and Pit technically because he came up from a little lower than the other mid-to-BL characters) sooo make of that what you will.

 

[Neon!]

because i have to play people like ultimate razer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlvgULiQJrA and illmatic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUA4W9m1p40 and denti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aniZ3YMXBo and trela (didn't save any tourney vids with him) and then i run into people like good ol' tree and killik and kprime who use obscure *** characters (sheiks and pikachu, wtf) meanwhile all my friends are getting people who use snake (diska and jrugs etc) and olimar (skypirate etc) and falco and wolf and (all my favorite MUs). and this is every tournament i go too. and then when i do **** people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElch7YG3ZY or do pretty good against higher level players in friendlies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ5kv1PaKb4&list=UUsOy2X6gEclSCyFlDOUKBCQ&index=1&feature=plcp well it's just friendlies so no-one can pay attention to it even if they think im good.

although tbh i shouldn't be johning. i just need to get better. hence why im gonna come outta nowhere and win hobo 38 and get that extra $1000 yes sir.

Forgetting the time you lost to me at whobo 3

I'd love to play again though, you seem to have improved a lot since then.

 

[Luxord]

I wasn't wrong. Most of those match up s are -1 at worst which means he doesn't "really lose" them. His only real solid disadvantage is MK

IMO tink's -1s aren't like a lot of the other -1s where it was the panel arguing like hell for an even such as some other MUs (like Pika Wolf) where Wolf Panel argued for -2 vs the -3 it is. tinks -1s are actually really -1s and he loses them enough.

And the snake MU should be +2, if the snake is as skilled as the tink it's hard as hell for tink to kill while snake can stop the camping game at death percent and end it. IIRC Havok and Ally both beat MJG (with MJG getting it really really close in winners v havok i think, but not in losers so much). I mean tink just cant kill a snake (especially from midstage where a good snake can DI and live from practically any earlier less than 140)

imo -4 is used so rarely other than the H tier's MUs (and D3s infinite grab MUs) you can't even consider the MU chart out of +4 to -4. It's more of a +3 to -3 thus making a -1 a lot more significant in the scale.

 

[Seagull Joe]

IMO tink's -1s aren't like a lot of the other -1s where it was the panel arguing like hell for an even such as some other MUs (like Pika Wolf) where Wolf Panel argued for -2 vs the -3 it is. tinks -1s are actually really -1s and he loses them enough.

And the snake MU should be +2, if the snake is as skilled as the tink it's hard as hell for tink to kill while snake can stop the camping game at death percent and end it. IIRC Havok and Ally both beat MJG (with MJG getting it really really close in winners v havok i think, but not in losers so much). I mean tink just cant kill a snake (especially from midstage where a good snake can DI and live from practically any earlier less than 140)

imo -4 is used so rarely other than the H tier's MUs (and D3s infinite grab MUs) you can't even consider the MU chart out of +4 to -4. It's more of a +3 to -3 thus making a -1 a lot more significant in the scale.

Who the hell are you to say vs is -3 for ? I don't even understand where the basis for your judgment comes from. Empirical evidence (Tournament results) supports -2. As well as theorycrafting. Only the cg even makes the matchup -2.

 

[Luxord]

Who the hell are you to say vs is -3 for ? I don't even understand where the basis for your judgment comes from. Empirical evidence (Tournament results) supports -2. As well as theorycrafting. Only the cg even makes the matchup -2.

Seagull, re-read my post please. No editing down IIRC, when did I say Wolfika is -3
relax with your freaking emotions, read things clearly before getting ignorantly mad.

TL;DR: All I did was state what the MU chart states, never input my opinion on the issue of the versus matchup.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Your post was badly worded.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I guess by 'vs the +3 it is' he meant that it's +3 on the chart, not that it's +3 in reality.

 

[Neon!]

Also Sonic is still too low. I don't think like, ****ing Peach will ever have the level of relative success that Sonic has had in this lifetime. I know placings aren't everything but there reaches a point where you have to go "OK, maybe this actually works and people aren't just bad."

Peach is a significantly better character than sonic, both characters have comparable placings from the past year and a half. Peach has one of the best movesets in the game outside outside of killing options while sonic has one of the worst. Her float gives her incredible mobility and she's one of the only characters who can actually pressure shields effectively. Peach's positive matchups on IC's, pika and wario(all +1) bode very well for her in the future as well as her nearly even matchups with olimar and diddy (both -1)

 

[z00ted]

I don't understand how people think Peach is such a bad character when she considerably out-placed almost everyone below her (and slightly above her) for a pretty good duration of time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Because she's slow and can't jump high/quickly. That's a pretty good reason.

 

[Neon!]

Because she's slow and can't jump high/quickly. That's a pretty good reason.

Thats the reason she isnt high tier, yes.