Official BBR Tier List v7

[Orion*]

Orion, your sig gives me a good chuckle every time I see it.

Thanks XD
maybe I'll get something new after the next ktar

lol, I instantly thought of that quote when I heard he beat Vinnie and then when the Japanese won Apex. It was the ultimate summary to the sentiments being tossed around in that thread. If you ever want a good laugh go back and read the first several pages.

Never saw this post O_o

Peach loses to Falco -2.

You can't think that ish is as hard as snake or mk though right? XD

easy situations to punish his landing due to his high falling speed.

What fox's are you playing... LMAO

 

[-LzR-]

puff vs. d3 is pretty good for Puff imo

cause he gets punished really, really god-damn hard and is really immobile so you can play campy with the lead and puff's mobility can make it super awkward for him to approach

to a lesser extent, no cg. All puff really has to watch out for are bair (beaten by our rising aerials) and utilt (beaten by weaving a la snake MU)

Then you remember that one bair from Dedede >= 5 bairs from Puff.
Also Doc Kings amazing "puff can't escape Dededes Dthrow" AT.

 

[Zano]

puff vs. d3 is pretty good for Puff imo

cause he gets punished really, really god-damn hard and is really immobile so you can play campy with the lead and puff's mobility can make it super awkward for him to approach

to a lesser extent, no cg. All puff really has to watch out for are bair (beaten by our rising aerials) and utilt (beaten by weaving a la snake MU)

Got a pretty good laugh out of this, that MU is almost unwinnable for Jiggz yo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then you remember that one bair from Dedede >= 5 bairs from Puff.
Also Doc Kings amazing "puff can't escape Dededes Dthrow" AT.

One bair from Puff = 1 or 2 subsequent aerials a lot of the time, sometimes even a pound or grab.

And if Dedede is pushed off-stage by this... he is pretty well ****ed.

Got a pretty good laugh out of this, that MU is almost unwinnable for Jiggz yo.

I have never seen a video of this match-up or anything to indicate the ratio either way, I was just giving my opinion.

I don't think anyone can say what the MU actually is with any certainty.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

On the flip side, what exactly can Jiggypuff do against Dedede's up tilt? I bet it beats all her aerials. lol.

His bair > her moveset.

Grab.

etc.

It's probably at least -2.

 

[-LzR-]

It's kinda like Snake, the risk/reward is ****ed up against Puff.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

On the flip side, what exactly can Jiggypuff do against Dedede's up tilt? I bet it beats all her aerials. lol.

His bair > her moveset.

Grab.

etc.

It's probably at least -2.

Characters don't get countered by single moves, players do.

 

[Zano]

I just don't see anything puff has that would even let her touch D3 safely, not to mention how in the **** she can even kill him while he could easily kill her before she's even at 100

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You could make the same "nothing can touch D3" argument for Wario (his aerials get out-ranged b utilt/bair), air speed matters a lot.

She either doesn't KO d3 (time out) or she KOs via edge-guarding and then resting his up-b if necessary. Rest KOs D3 under 100% on most stages.

Also, I know I'm only talking about the MU from Puff's side and ignoring D3's advantages. I'm not saying this is in Puff's favour necessarily, just trying to explain why I think she has a pretty legit fighting chance.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Characters don't get countered by single moves, players do.

lol, but seriously, Dedede outranges it, reliably KO's before it, and generally has more favorable punishes.

She either doesn't KO d3 (time out) or she KOs via edge-guarding and then resting his up-b if necessary. Rest KOs D3 under 100% on most stages.

Also, I know I'm only talking about the MU from Puff's side and ignoring D3's advantages. I'm not saying this is in Puff's favour necessarily, just trying to explain why I think she has a pretty legit fighting chance.

Resting his recovery? idk man.

But yeah, miss Rest, and have fun being KO'd at 20%.

 

[-LzR-]

A legit Puff shouldn't ever miss a rest against a recovering Dedede though, it's way too easy to hit him. Rest isn't that hard to hit with.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

lol, but seriously, Dedede outranges it, reliably KO's before it, and generally has more favorable punishes.

That is way too general for me to say anything about

Out-ranges, sure. Out-ranges effectively though? Range shouldn't be used in match-up discussion because it isn't just hitbox size that is important. It is hitbox duration, speed, how the hitboxes compliment the way the character's space, etc...

Resting his recovery? idk man.

But yeah, miss Rest, and have fun being KO'd at 20%.

Resting a big stationary target that can't hit you back is child's play xD

 

[bubbaking]

Don't really go into the -1's cause those can always be argued. D3 only really destroys chars in Mid Tier and lower who he can CG...that's about it. Only high tier MU's he wins convincingly are Lucario and Wario

In my opinion, DDD wins against Marth as convincingly as he does against Lucario. Also, the CG doesn't dictate who D3 wins against. D3 can't CG Zelda but we beat her anyway. Same goes for Squirtle.

He really doesn't gimp our recovery too bad and vice versa.

This is the only statement that I disagree with from that post. I feel like DDD can potentially gimp Fox fairly hard. Illusion is hard to stop, but if he goes for anything other than the ledge we can punish that pretty hard and if he firefoxes, that's a free bair or dair.

puff vs. d3 is pretty good for Puff imo

cause he gets punished really, really god-damn hard and is really immobile so you can play campy with the lead and puff's mobility can make it super awkward for him to approach

to a lesser extent, no cg. All puff really has to watch out for are bair (beaten by our rising aerials) and utilt (beaten by weaving a la snake MU)

How do you punish DDD "really, really god-**** hard?" I also don't really see Jiggs out-prioritizing DDD's bair although I do agree that his bad mobility probably hurts him a lot in this MU. You still have to watch out for other aerials, too, especially Jiggs who risks dying from anything. At least +1 for DDD (probably more).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He gets punished by basic aerial strings (about 10-30% per hit on average, sometimes higher) and when he is off-stage we can basically just keep hitting him until he dies, or is forced to use up-b. Then we can just grab the ledge and punish his landing by hitting him off-stage again. Rinse and repeat till D3 is dead or at rest KO percent.

Other aerials like... his crappy nair or DI'able dair and uair? His fair is pretty laughable in the MU too imo just because of it's speed and angle.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-1 vs top tier chars is great for a mid tier. Falco does ok vs peach, also arguably -1 for peach as well. Snake and marth beat her +2 which isnt that bad and mk is -3 just like every other mid tier character.

I don't think Marth beats her +2 0_0
Like, unless you're low/bottom tier and/or suffer from a grab release you don't lose any more than -1 to Marth, regardless of who you are.

And -1 isn't "great" for a midtier tbh, especially when nothing backs up the claim that it's supposedly even. Peach is said to be 0 with Diddy among the theorycrafters but people who play / observe the match-up played in actuality have it as -1. And yet Peach's tourney record vs Diddy is actually quite dreadful and tips the match-up more towards a -2 than 0. That's not "doing great", that's "being incapable to confirm anything the character is said to be able to".

So you think Wario is low-mid high tier?

Yeah, I think Wario should be somewhere in the middle or the lower end of high tier. I don't think ZSS should be a high tier character though.

Man, I've noticed that you pretty much have something against most of the values on the MU chart. I don't think one can say that Peach's MUs vs Diddy and Oli are "nowhere near [even]" if they're listed there as 0's. It doesn't make sense to cite some MUs as legitimate arguments but then totally dismiss others as invalid. For instance, you can't really say she's "completely invalidated by Falco" if it's only a -1. I also noticed that you said in an eariler post that Falco does not lose to MK. I would say that, if Neon is going by the current MU chart, then Peach does do well against Diddy and Olimar, in addition to Falco.

Can we please stop pretending that the match-up chart is a credible, reliable source for match-up estimations for once? If you knew how it was created you would think completely different of it - a lot of the numbers come from bias / whishful thinking and completely lack the practical aspect of the match-up such as implementing tourney records into the match-up number. Otherwise Marth wouldn't have all those +1s against characters he goes even with in actuality.

You can't think that ish is as hard as snake or mk though right? XD

Maybe it's not quite as terrible .... then again I don't see a lot of Peach players attempt this match-up anymore anyway. But like, when was the last notable tourney win of a Peach player against Marth? I think the best achievement Peach has in that match-up within the last year is like reaper taking a game off BluB in a best of 5 set or somehing.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

A legit Puff shouldn't ever miss a rest against a recovering Dedede though, it's way too easy to hit him. Rest isn't that hard to hit with.

Why do people think Dedede is going to be Up B'ing onto the stage?

why?

Out-ranges, sure. Out-ranges effectively though? Range shouldn't be used in match-up discussion because it isn't just hitbox size that is important. It is hitbox duration, speed, how the hitboxes compliment the way the character's space, etc...

:researcher:

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because he is either going off-stage, on-stage or the ledge. And Puff should be covering the ledge. Though I must say that resting him during the up-b isn't THAT hard either.

Your response to the second quote scares, confuses and strangely arouses me.

 

[-LzR-]

Dedede has one of the ****tiest long recoveries in the game. It's easy to see it coming if he tries to reach the ledge and then he dies. Good luck recovering.

 

[bubbaking]

Range shouldn't be used in match-up discussion because it isn't just hitbox size that is important. It is hitbox duration, speed, how the hitboxes compliment the way the character's space, etc...

In all of which DDD beats Jiggs through pretty much only one move (bair). Bair comes out quickly, lasts a while, and it complements D3's spacing quite well. Also, range should still be an important part of MU discussions (which DDD beats Jiggs in again).

Resting a big stationary target that can't hit you back is child's play xD

Except it can hit you back.

Other aerials like... his crappy nair or DI'able dair and uair? His fair is pretty laughable in the MU too imo just because of it's speed and angle.

I'm pretty sure even D3's nair can kill Jiggs around 100 or so. D3's dair is somewhat hard to DI when he comes down with it. His uair is easier but it's still a good move for damage racking. DDD's fair is laughable? Seems like a perfectly fine aerial to me. 15-16% damage when fresh, decent KO power (especially on Jiggs), and what about the ange? It hits in a large arc around him and can even send you backwards.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Because he is either going off-stage, on-stage or the ledge. And Puff should be covering the ledge. Though I must say that resting him during the up-b isn't THAT hard either.

Your response to the second quote scares, confuses and strangely arouses me.

Mmm, fair enough I guess.

The second response was me pointing out that I know a lot about hitboxes (hence why I'm in the Smash Lab), and that generally Dedede's hitboxes would have priority over Jigglypuff's.

Dedede has one of the ****tiest long recoveries in the game. It's easy to see it coming if he tries to reach the ledge and then he dies. Good luck recovering.

Eh, eh.

Oh, the other thing is that Dedede rarely, if ever, needs to be using Up B. I should have clarified earlier, but yeah.

Because of the speed of the recovery and super armor and intangibility frames, idk.

I'm not being very coherent today, but I don't think it's as easy as you guys are making it out to be from a purely objective standpoint.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In all of which DDD beats Jiggs through pretty much only one move (bair). Bair comes out quickly, lasts a while, and it complements D3's spacing quite well.

Characters don't get countered by single moves, players do.

Also, range should still be an important part of MU discussions (which DDD beats Jiggs in again).

Range shouldn't, effective range should. Read mah post better.

I'm pretty sure even D3's nair can kill Jiggs around 100 or so. D3's dair is somewhat hard to DI when he comes down with it. His uair is easier but it's still a good move for damage racking. DDD's fair is laughable? Seems like a perfectly fine aerial to me. 15-16% damage when fresh, decent KO power (especially on Jiggs), and what about the ange? It hits in a large arc around him and can even send you backwards.

His nair is terrible.
His uair/dair are never hard to DI.
His fair is slow and doesn't cover his whole body all at once like bair. You can hit him from below at any point during it, and you can hit him from above/front at different points.

 

[Zano]

Well his bair has a preeeetty effective range, soooo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It does.

Characters don't get countered by single moves, players do.

Maybe making this my signature would be easier?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I dunno grim.

Ganon's best move is probs bair and uair, they are his most effective moves and he has no reason to use his other moves.

Same thing with Dededes bair. It's his best attack, apart from grab, and between the two moves he has no real reason to use any of his other moves.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think using Ganon as an example of why using one move is good was a good idea lol

 

[bubbaking]

Like, unless you're low/bottom tier and/or suffer from a grab release you don't lose any more than -1 to Marth, regardless of who you are.

Peach is said to be 0 with Diddy among the theorycrafters but people who play / observe the match-up played in actuality have it as -1. And yet Peach's tourney record vs Diddy is actually quite dreadful and tips the match-up more towards a -2 than 0. That's not "doing great", that's "being incapable to confirm anything the character is said to be able to".



I don't think ZSS should be a high tier character though.



Can we please stop pretending that the match-up chart is a credible, reliable source for match-up estimations for once? If you knew how it was created you would think completely different of it - a lot of the numbers come from bias / whishful thinking and completely lack the practical aspect of the match-up such as implementing tourney records into the match-up number. Otherwise Marth wouldn't have all those +1s against characters he goes even with in actuality.

Woah, there's a lot of radical opinions here. Marth can't win MUs by greater than +1? Peach is destroyed by Diddy? ZSS isn't high tier? :-O

About the MU chart, from what I understand, players who were educated about their respective characters were the only ones allowed in the panels for debate. How is such a process neither credible nor reliable? I'm not contradicting you. I simply want clarification.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Okay, better and also hypothetical example.

MK's dair kills things instantly when it hits. There is literally no reason to use any of his other options because they are grossly inferior.

Same sort of thing with Dedede. All of his options, apart from grab, are inferior to bair (maybe ftilt and dair are the only other moves worth using). The only real reason to use other moves is to unstale it, which grab does nicely.

does this make sense?

im standing on a corner about 2kms from home rereading what I wrote and it's not making sense to me. lol

 

[Laem]

Your apparant 'correction' doesn't make any sense to me either. Barely any move is useless. Heck even MK's upsmash has niche uses. If you're saying dedede shouldnt use e.g utilt / dtilt, you're simply wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Dedede only has bair, that means that I only have to worry about bair.

You know how many times people who don't main Snake have tried to beat me in the Snake/Puff MU just by camping and spamming up tilt when I get close? Many, many times, and they usually get 3 or 2-stocked.

Up tilt is fast, strong and has the perfect range to cover all my best approaches. So what were they doing wrong? Hopefully, you can answer that for yourself.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

*shrug*

*goes back to jogging*

 

[bubbaking]

His nair is terrible.
His uair/dair are never hard to DI.
His fair is slow and doesn't cover his whole body all at once like bair. You can hit him from below at any point during it, and you can hit him from above/front at different points.

D3's nair combos into utilt at low %'s for a damage-racking combo of, like, 20%. As I said earlier, it will kill at super-high %'s (only high on Puff). His entire body becomes a hitbox and it lasts a while so it catches air dodges. Even if uair and dair are easy to DI, the huge range/disjoint on them and their low startup times are reason enough to use them. The high knockback on the final hits is just a nice bonus. How is DDD's fair slow? You stated earlier that Puffs use pound. I'm fairly certain that D3's fair is faster than that. It's faster than DK's and Snake's fairs (the others fairs of comparable power) and I don't think too many people would agree with saying that DDD's fair isn't at least a decent aerial. Also, the hitbox covers a little below him at the very beginning of the move. Besides, if you were really gonna attack me from below, I'd simply use DJ dair.

Edit: Btw, I'm arguing that D3 has more than just 2 good moves.....in case you haven't noticed.

I don't think using Ganon as an example of why using one move is good was a good idea lol

Lolz, I see what you did there!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think D3 has more than 2 good moves and almost all of them have uses, but outside of bair I think Puff has the advantage aerial-wise.

Fair isn't that slow, but it is compared to Puff's aerials. It is barely comparable to Pound btw aha. Pound is good because the hitbox is a decent size, is out for ages and has a pretty good angle and because it slows Puff's descent, it's speed is one of it's only downsides.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jigg's pound has silly shield damage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wish it did more shield damage tbh lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

it does +20 shield damage.

Dunno how much more you want it to do. lol.

Edit: For a comparison, Ganon's utilt also has +20 shield damage. Ganon's utilt does a bit more because it does 27% compared to Jigglypuff's 11%, but still.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd like if it was actually possible to break shields with it.

Like, a few consecutive aerials > pound should break a shield. How it is currently is that when the opponent's shield is small enough to break, pound pokes anyway :/

 

[Fuujin]

Characters don't get countered by single moves, players do.

But this isn't really true.
I can't speak so much for the other bottom tiers, but I know that Falco's jab is pretty much the reason Zelda goes -3 with him.
I would think it would be the same for Falcon and Ganon but they aren't as floaty so I don't know if they get destroyed by it as much.

 

[-LzR-]

It's kinda sad how Pound damages shields so well, but actually touching a shield with pound is guaranteed to get your *** kicked.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's kinda sad how Pound damages shields so well, but actually touching a shield with pound is guaranteed to get your *** kicked.

That is likely why it has shield damage in the first place.

Edit: Oh, it also has a 40% trip rate. Don't ask me why.

 

[infiniteV115]

Sonic is one of the faster characters in the air as far as horizontal movement goes (perhaps not amazing compared to Yoshi, but Yoshi is the fastest in the game unless you are referring to acceleration).

Side-b jump cancels (idk the technical term for it) can also launch him very far very quickly.

I'm not nit-picking your post, I agree with your point about Yoshi's mobility 100%. I just don't want incorrect information out there.

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

Well what do you know, you're right. Thanks.

On the flip side, what exactly can Jiggypuff do against Dedede's up tilt? I bet it beats all her aerials. lol.

His bair > her moveset.

Grab.

etc.

It's probably at least -2.

Dedede does well in this MU because of bair and grab? How refreshing.