Avengingbandit
Smash Cadet
DAT OLIMAR JUMP.
lol, MK was, is, and will always be #1 on the tier list.
lol, MK was, is, and will always be #1 on the tier list.
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
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Lukingordex
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hm...Sopo is probably as good as lucas
Let´s put Lucas on the bottom of the mid,and Sopo in the top of the low.
Neon!
Smash Lord
Next tier list should include individual spots for ivysaur, squirtle and charizard. Personally I would put Ivy between Luigi and Lucas (low tier though) Charizard between DK and ike and Squirtle between fox and peach.
Dcold
Smash Lord
Squirtle is not THAT good, let's be real. When he's at 80, he's dead if he's grabbed. Squirtle would be like, at most, E tier with Rob and them.
Trouble is, how do we judge those spots? Do we treat matchups like a one-stock match? Do we consider the matchup as if a PT player tried to use one Pokémon exclusively (using moves as the others only to get a safe switch off)? Also, how do we factor in fatigue?
You underestimate the character. Not many characters get an easy KO from a grab, and, for most characters, Squirtle is not easy to grab. He's certainly at least on the level of Fox and Peach.
Dcold
Smash Lord
I really don't agree, especially due to the lack of people using the character. You can't really judge untapped power, or base it solely off of 1 person's play. We had the same discussion with Mekos about Lucas, just because he can do some good things with Lucas you can't really say Lucas is this good because Mekos uses him this well.
Edit: I'm saying I don't agree Squirtle should be that high, whether he's better than Peach I can't say.
Edit: I'm saying I don't agree Squirtle should be that high, whether he's better than Peach I can't say.
ぱみゅ
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I think he meant he's as hard to grab as Peach and Fox lol
Squirtle could be between ZSS and DDD as a solo character, IMO.
It's a good character who lacks of kill power, specially if the opponent can camp him well.
EDIT: NVM, I'm dumb and have Squirtle vs DDD bias.
Squirtle could be between ZSS and DDD as a solo character, IMO.
It's a good character who lacks of kill power, specially if the opponent can camp him well.
EDIT: NVM, I'm dumb and have Squirtle vs DDD bias.
Neon!
Smash Lord
Decide their individual spots based off of a 1 stock match and then decide their spots based off of factors that matter in 3 stock matches such as switching and fatigue. Then use the average of those two placings.
I pretty much agree with all of this. Squirtle isn't A Tier material or anything, but he's certainly a solid, usable character if we ignore the auto-switch mechanic and fatigue.
Neon!
Smash Lord
Peach and squirtle are comparable. Peach does very well against olimar, IC's and diddy and is one of the only characters with a positive matchup with IC's making her quite a threat.Wtf are you talking about? Squirtle is a LOT better than Peach. Maybe not as good as Fox though but the character is still pretty decent on his own.
Peach doesn't do well vs Diddy / Olimar. Unless going -1 against them means "doing well" to you. No, she's not even with them ... nowhere near that to be precise.
And Peach blows, that char is completely invalidated by Falco, Snake and MK. I'm not sure about Squirtle's match-ups but I have a hard time seeing anything close to that except vs Marth. The rest seems manageable.
Neon!
Smash Lord
-1 vs top tier chars is great for a mid tier. Falco does ok vs peach, also arguably -1 for peach as well. Snake and marth beat her +2 which isnt that bad and mk is -3 just like every other mid tier character.Peach doesn't do well vs Diddy / Olimar. Unless going -1 against them means "doing well" to you. No, she's not even with them ... nowhere near that to be precise.
And Peach blows, that char is completely invalidated by Falco, Snake and MK. I'm not sure about Squirtle's match-ups but I have a hard time seeing anything close to that except vs Marth. The rest seems manageable.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
why is falco so bad O_o def his favor but i wouldnt compare to snake/mk. otherwise i agreePeach doesn't do well vs Diddy / Olimar. Unless going -1 against them means "doing well" to you. No, she's not even with them ... nowhere near that to be precise.
And Peach blows, that char is completely invalidated by Falco, Snake and MK. I'm not sure about Squirtle's match-ups but I have a hard time seeing anything close to that except vs Marth. The rest seems manageable.
ぱみゅ
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I'm pretty sure Falco wins +2 against Peach if he laserlaserphantasm all day long.
her shield is pretty weak without turnips...
That's like, my opinion, though.
Cassio
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lol, I instantly thought of that quote when I heard he beat Vinnie and then when the Japanese won Apex. It was the ultimate summary to the sentiments being tossed around in that thread. If you ever want a good laugh go back and read the first several pages.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well, you don't really need much power to kill Squirtle anyway... :-|Zero Suit Samus? mm...but...but...she have no killing power....
For all it's worth, Zero Suit Samus can't really use her aerials without a dedicated set-up move, though; a Squirtle on the ground is too short to be hit by F-Air or B-Air, a crouching Squirtle avoids U-Air and grab, and Forward-B is weaker due to the type disadvantage against fire-based attacks. This limits her reliable KO options to D-Smash -> aerial and D-Tilt/U-Tilt -> aerial.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
What's a "small step"?Anyway the ZSS infinite on squirtle is a grab-release pummel infinite. It has a very small frame window and does very little damage... You can small step it to the ledge but I don't recall if you can do anything there. >_> Plus you have to land a grab on squirtle, which is really difficult.
Fun fact: you can small step the Wario grab release infinite and try to cheese up-b him at the ledge.
Ummm, I don't really know if ZSS deserves top tier status just yet. If anything, I feel like her situation is similar to Lucario's. She has little representation and her MU spread is very similar (just a little better due to the MK MU). She loses to everyone currently in top tier, except for ICs and Marth, with whom she goes almost even and even, respectively. From a practical standpoint, her metagame definitely has a lot of room for expansion but there are definitely certain points that seem like they will always weigh her down. One of them is her short hop height. She has wonderful aerials, but her SHFFL height leaves much to be desired. Another of her not-so-good areas is her recovery. She has quite a few options for mixup recovery, but they all require either a wall to be present or for ZSS to be above the stage. Once she's forced to recover low, it's an easy gimp/edgeguard.
As for whether ZSS is better than Wario, well to begin with, I think Wario shouldn't really be top tier anymore. His MU spread is kinda bad (from a top tier perspective). No winning MUs in top tier as well as three fairly hard counters, two in top tier and one in high tier. Add to that the fact that he goes even with, or almost goes even with, pretty much all of high and mid tier and one realizes that Wario...isn't really deserving of his placement. Now that that's been settled in my mind, I can reasonably say that ZSS may very well be a better char than Wario.
After your move (in this case, a grab-release), you can walk forward for a couple frames and grab again, which slowly moves the opponent forward after multiple grabs.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I see what you're saying here, but I think ZSS's neutral-B shouldn't be forgotten here. Does that move also go over a crouching squirtle?
Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that also goes over a crouching Squirtle, and Squirtle's Dash Attack also clanks with both types of shots.
ZSS recovery isn't much of a weak point. She is actually pretty difficult to gimp with most characters. There aren't many things that will force her to recover so low that her boost jump and down B can't get her over the ledge. She would have to be so low that pretty much only MK would get back on stage easily. Not to mention she can footstool invincible targets and get past them. Once she reaches a certain distance from the ledge, you can either wait on stage and let her grab, or edgehog and watch as she jump off of you before you can do anything.
I'd say a much weaker point is her OoS game. With a slow inaccurate and laggy grab + jumps that go too high, she doesn't have many quick options for things spaced on her shield, especially if you are behind her shield.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Tesh nailed it. ZSS' recovery is definitely not a 'not-so-good area', hers is one of the best in the game. Top 10 for sure. She is by no means very easy to gimp/edgeguard except maybe by MK. She has a better recovery than every top tier except for MK, Pikachu and Wario, so her recovery is definitely a plus.
In case you didn't know...she is completely intangible for the 1st 12 frames of her downB...and then on the 19th frame onwards she can use her flipstool. And it isn't even hard to time; you can just hold the jump button and it'll come out ASAP.
And the flipstool box is huge and you can flipstool off of an opponent that's invincible and on the ledge.
I'm going to assume that you said these things because you lack ZSS experience. Trust me, good ZSSs don't get gimped. I can't think of one time I got gimped in tourney/MM and it was the character's fault rather than my own.
Yeah, her short hop could be better, but it's barely a problem. And like Tesh said, her OoS game is a bigger problem. Though I don't feel it's much of a problem now that I've been using uair and usmash OoS.
...You are aware that SHFFL stands for short hop fastfall L-cancel, right? You know that L-cancelling doesn't exist in Brawl...right? XD
bubbaking
Smash Hero
So you think Wario is low-mid high tier?
DDD doesn't have a big disjointed uair.....and he sucks??? <________<
Unless MK's not on the next tier list.
The same logic applied to Jigglypuff, the second lightest character, in Melee. One grab at 80 and most chars could kill her. Didn't stop her from being the third best char in the game. This is actually a somewhat similar case. Squirtle's aerial prowess, as well as his capability of handling a good ground game, means you're gonna have a hard time grabbing Squirtle, let alone killing him. Time and again, he's proven to be comparable to Wario in many regards, and we all know that Wario is a good character, albeit not the greatest.
Everyone in E tier, except for Sonic, your character Sheik, and perhaps Yoshi, has slight mobility problems. I don't think it would be fair to lump Squirtle in with them. He has one of the greatest combinations of ground and aerial mobility in the game, imo. For everyone saying that Squirtle can't kill, he has good gimping potential, his usmash is pretty strong when fresh, and I believe he has one or two kill throws that get the job done when all else fails (and his grab game is pretty good for someone his size).
On another note, how you doing, man? Are you going to the next Impact?
Well, to be fair, no one's ever really used "Squirtle," at least not solely, so there's nothing to truly base all of this on.
Man, I've noticed that you pretty much have something against most of the values on the MU chart. I don't think one can say that Peach's MUs vs Diddy and Oli are "nowhere near [even]" if they're listed there as 0's. It doesn't make sense to cite some MUs as legitimate arguments but then totally dismiss others as invalid. For instance, you can't really say she's "completely invalidated by Falco" if it's only a -1. I also noticed that you said in an eariler post that Falco does not lose to MK. I would say that, if Neon is going by the current MU chart, then Peach does do well against Diddy and Olimar, in addition to Falco.
Uair and Usmash OoS still have the same problems. You probably already know how I feel about a laggy, easily punished on hit move that only does 8 damage fresh like Upsmash, but it still doesn't really help her poor ground to ground OoS game. In a metagame where half the characters above her rely alot more on abusively safe ground games more than gimps or even being in the air after they attack a shield, I'd say its a bigger problem than actually having a poor recovery.
I think DDD should move down more, should be in the Borderline Tier. Sure he counters 1 or 2 characters above him and has one even matchup above him, but Borderline does that without getting wrecked by everyone else above them like he does. We see Peach, Fox and maybe Pit in the same boat where they counter a good character but they don't have to deal with -2 or -3 vs everyone else.
I think DDD should move down more, should be in the Borderline Tier. Sure he counters 1 or 2 characters above him and has one even matchup above him, but Borderline does that without getting wrecked by everyone else above them like he does. We see Peach, Fox and maybe Pit in the same boat where they counter a good character but they don't have to deal with -2 or -3 vs everyone else.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Hmmm, it's true that I've never faced any good ZSS's, but I've faced a couple not-so-good ones as DDD, and I must say that I gave them quite some trouble whenever I decided to be a little aggressive offstage with my bairs. I'm aware of the powerful tool known as ZSS's downB, but thinking about it now, if I ever saw a ZSS trying to downB over me, I'd uair immediately. After the 12 frames of invincibility, she'd have to wait 7 frames to flipstool and even longer to get an actual hitbox out. That's more than enough time to land an uair or bair, especially if I do it preemptively.
Yes, I'm aware of what SHFFL stands for. Tbh, I'm more of a Melee player than a Brawl player so I'm more used to using terms from that game. Besides, you knew that I was referring to SHFF's (if that's the correct term).
Dcold
Smash Lord
I'm good, and yes I will be.
But yeah, this conversation is meaningless as the character is damaged by the game mechanics by default, unless we're willing to hack the game in order to extinguish that, which I doubt most people would be against.
But yeah, this conversation is meaningless as the character is damaged by the game mechanics by default, unless we're willing to hack the game in order to extinguish that, which I doubt most people would be against.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Yeah her OoS game is still bad, I'm just saying it's not terrible and not as bad as I used to think it was.
Edit:
And for the ZSS to downB OVER you, she'd either have to be doing it while you attempt to ff bair her (so she avoids it and you can't uair her) or she's right beside you...and idk why you would ever want to be there, you'd just get uaired.
Lol. Dude, Yoshi is one of the most mobile characters in the game. Sonic and Sheik have terrible horizontal air speed; they're only really mobile on the ground, and have good rising/falling mobility. Yoshi has the highest horizontal air speed, and is able to change directions quite easily...as well as a good running speed. He's mobile in pretty much every way possible aside from falling.
Edit:
The idea in this MU is that you don't use downB until you see a bair coming at you. Obviously if you threw them out randomly they'd be easy to punish.
And for the ZSS to downB OVER you, she'd either have to be doing it while you attempt to ff bair her (so she avoids it and you can't uair her) or she's right beside you...and idk why you would ever want to be there, you'd just get uaired.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Then, we'd have to move the margins of BL tier up to encompass TL and DDD. D3 pretty much destroys everyone below him so I don't think it would be good to actually move him down so that he concedes spots to other chars worse than him. Besides, DDD actually beats 4 chars above him, three of them being top tier chars. One of those top tiers, he shuts down pretty hard. Personally, I think low high tier is good for him.
Oh, btw, Fox has more -3's above him than DDD does, and he has -3's below him as well (which D3 doesn't have). Peach has as many -3's, although less -2's. Pit's MU spread is actually really good, and I think it should actually be better. I've always advocated for Pit being in High Tier, but I'm always shot down...
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Sonic is one of the faster characters in the air as far as horizontal movement goes (perhaps not amazing compared to Yoshi, but Yoshi is the fastest in the game unless you are referring to acceleration).
Side-b jump cancels (idk the technical term for it) can also launch him very far very quickly.
I'm not nit-picking your post, I agree with your point about Yoshi's mobility 100%. I just don't want incorrect information out there.
*disappears in a puff of smoke*
_Kain_
Smash Champion
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Uhhh... DDD has lots of bad MU's...like...ALOT
Ones I think that **** him (-2 or higher)- ICs, Olimar, MK
Ones I think he loses to solidly (some also -2 and borderlining into -2)- Diddy, Falco, Pikachu, Fox
Don't really go into the -1's cause those can always be argued. D3 only really destroys chars in Mid Tier and lower who he can CG...that's about it. Only high tier MU's he wins convincingly are Lucario and Wario
Ones I think that **** him (-2 or higher)- ICs, Olimar, MK
Ones I think he loses to solidly (some also -2 and borderlining into -2)- Diddy, Falco, Pikachu, Fox
Don't really go into the -1's cause those can always be argued. D3 only really destroys chars in Mid Tier and lower who he can CG...that's about it. Only high tier MU's he wins convincingly are Lucario and Wario
allshort17
Smash Ace
Your right about everything except for Fox being borderline -2. Fox has zero safe ways to approach Dedede without being shield grabbed. We force him in the air with grabs and put him in easy situations to punish his landing due to his high falling speed. If he wants to grab our shield, just grab him before he does or ftilt him since he has to get close. His laser camp is annoying, but waddle dees do take a little of it away and we can always air camp if we have a lead. He really doesn't gimp our recovery too bad and vice versa. However, if he does get a hit then SDI and pray to God because Dedede will get combo'ed for days.
This MU is a solid -1 if not on the verge of even. I doesn't matter though because Dedede is bad anyways.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
sonic has decent horizontal mobility.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
spin shot goes HELLA far though
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
puff vs. d3 is pretty good for Puff imo
cause he gets punished really, really god-damn hard and is really immobile so you can play campy with the lead and puff's mobility can make it super awkward for him to approach
to a lesser extent, no cg. All puff really has to watch out for are bair (beaten by our rising aerials) and utilt (beaten by weaving a la snake MU)
cause he gets punished really, really god-damn hard and is really immobile so you can play campy with the lead and puff's mobility can make it super awkward for him to approach
to a lesser extent, no cg. All puff really has to watch out for are bair (beaten by our rising aerials) and utilt (beaten by weaving a la snake MU)
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