Meru.
I like spicy food
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- Merudi
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
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Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
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Why that remembered me of my sister?
Neon!
Smash Lord
Thank you for the explanations.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
I have pretty much zero Lucas practice, get at me.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Madame puff
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2011
- Messages
- 268
Wait, when did this change?
I've been away from the smash community a while, so I apologize if this a stupid question.
I've been away from the smash community a while, so I apologize if this a stupid question.
Claire Diviner
President
If you're asking about when this tier list was released, it was about two weeks ago.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
A week or two ago.
Madame puff
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2011
- Messages
- 268
I'm rather surprised with falco's part. Falco, if used correctly, is probably one of the most necessary characters in brawl. He has everything the perfect brawl character needs-a reflector to reflect projectiles, a projectile weapon for long range, a spike attack to send people flying down into the ground, a sliding smash-attack, and a little inkling of a chain grab.
MEOW1337KITTEH
Smash Lord
R.O.B. has all of those, well except for the chaingrab 
Falco is broken, but there are some who are more broken than he is.
Oh and welcome to Smashboards
Falco is broken, but there are some who are more broken than he is.
Oh and welcome to Smashboards
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Falco, when played with utmost disrespect for your opponent, is extremely potent, though some character simply have answers to his keep away. You can't laserlaser Olimar, MK laughs at your attempts to escape with Phantasm. ICs..not sure about them. Wario's mobility is too strong. Snake has grenade stage control to catch you. Falco's camping is extremely effective on borderline and down, though.
Luxord
Smash Journeyman
Yeah in that sense Falco is a better GW. Falco absolutely crushes (practically) everyone below him but not really much anyone above him (just drawing even or negative MUs). Same with GW, he's where he is because he wrecks almost everyone (minus 2-4 characters) below him but above him he gets owned (pretty badly too).
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Like years ago lol. And Nasty is good but was no Mekos/Pink Fresh.What? Isn't/wasn't nasty in your crew?
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
omg you are all under-rating falco so much and his match ups against high tiered are skewed imo. he should be even with marth, +1 on diddy, +2 zss, and still has so much untapped potential imo.
I feel like Falco - by sheer character design - is best or 2nd best. When you add in CGs he suffers a lot though because not only do other charaters get an even bigger boost than him but he also is hurt by these CGs himself. I don't think he loses any match-up that doesn't involve a chaingrab though. It's just that he happens to lose those match-up quite badly.
Luxord
Smash Journeyman
I wanna give you this but stagelist screws him along with MK and Pika. On neutrals (especially FD) Falco is free for Icies. On RC and FO he gets effed, namely Wario MK taking him to those 2 crush him. Olimar beats Falco regardless imo. So does MK. Snake doesn't even lose on neutral to him, goes even (debatable) and then snake wins on CPs. And I'm sure you know bout the horrid Pika MU gheb. He goes even with Marth and his DDD MU (+2) is +1 at best. He clearly can wreck DDD on neutrals which is the main issue. As for diddy I think falco loses if the diddy is smart enough not to get CGd -> spike -> gimp (or if they do get grabbed the diddy knows how to easily SDI the spike onto stage)I feel like Falco - by sheer character design - is best or 2nd best. When you add in CGs he suffers a lot though because not only do other charaters get an even bigger boost than him but he also is hurt by these CGs himself. I don't think he loses any match-up that doesn't involve a chaingrab though. It's just that he happens to lose those match-up quite badly.
I think at tops Falco can never exceed 4th and that's pushing it, to me he belongs right where he is. Also he lacks enough representation, he might be 2nd/3rd most used character, but most aren't threats. At the beginning of their matches most just keep phantasming and dash grabbing like idiots or they sit in their shield for a s. grab.
1.) Falco is one of the few characters that legit beat Olimar <_<
2.) FO is a really damn good CP for Falco. RC doesn't exist any more holy **** at people still taking that garbage into account
3.) FD is like, Falco's best option vs IC, not even kidding.
It's true that Falco should never go above 4th. 2 counters is too much to be top tier.
MK / IC
Snake / Olimar > Diddy / Pikachu
-
Falco > Marth / Fox
Wario / Pit
Is approx what I think it should be like.
2.) FO is a really damn good CP for Falco. RC doesn't exist any more holy **** at people still taking that garbage into account
3.) FD is like, Falco's best option vs IC, not even kidding.
It's true that Falco should never go above 4th. 2 counters is too much to be top tier.
MK / IC
Snake / Olimar > Diddy / Pikachu
-
Falco > Marth / Fox
Wario / Pit
Is approx what I think it should be like.
Luxord
Smash Journeyman
Falco beats Olimar? Maybe on paper but look at practically EVERY single top Olimar v top Falco. Olimar comes out on top from basically anything 2011-present.1.) Falco is one of the few characters that legit beat Olimar <_<
2.) FO is a really damn good CP for Falco. RC doesn't exist any more holy **** at people still taking that garbage into account
3.) FD is like, Falco's best option vs IC, not even kidding.
It's true that Falco should never go above 4th. 2 counters is too much to be top tier.
MK / IC
Snake / Olimar > Diddy / Pikachu
-
Falco > Marth / Fox
Wario / Pit
Is approx what I think it should be like.
I don't see Pika above Falco b/c Falco v Olimar and Diddy is (imo) easier for falco than pika and that's enough to not have Pika above.
And Fox above wario o_O (excluding TKD I feel no fox can truly prove that - but like many people have said "if there one day comes a fox who can't get grabbed, fox will be top tier")
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
Not true. Pelca and Shugo both beat dabuz this year and iirc the only recent loss to an olimar larry had was Nietono.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
People used to say (and still do) that ZSS beats Olimar.lol
Falco is like the character that can back up the claim to beat Olimar the best. Not even MK or IC [the other two arguable disadvantages] have such a solid and consistent winning record over Olimar.
To be honest it's been so long since anyone saw the MU that I'm not sure anymore. But in like early 2010? WHIP IT
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
^
I play the MU tons. ZSS loses, -1. It could be her worst MU, not really sure atm cause I have like no MK/Diddy experience so one/both of those could be worse.
I play the MU tons. ZSS loses, -1. It could be her worst MU, not really sure atm cause I have like no MK/Diddy experience so one/both of those could be worse.
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
Larry also beat Nietono in a $10(? maybe more, IDK for sure) MM at Apex.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
Falco definitely beats oli, lol. Larrys record vs oli is something ridiculous like 40+ to 3 (mostly from rich). He did lose to Nietono in bracket, but earlier hed beaten him in a mm and has beaten brood in two finals sets as well from the first Apex. More recently dabuz has lost to pelca and shugo even though neither are very strong in the MU (imo), and at the latest E4 anuar lost to both sk92 and larry (who also beat rich again).
Personally thats only half of why I feel the MU is bad, the other half from watching the matches themselves play out. Its a MU Ive seen probably more than any other MU, and from mutliple bracket sets, finals sets, and even friendlies its just depressing to watch.
Also RC is a fine Falco stage and FD is also good for falco against pika.
Personally thats only half of why I feel the MU is bad, the other half from watching the matches themselves play out. Its a MU Ive seen probably more than any other MU, and from mutliple bracket sets, finals sets, and even friendlies its just depressing to watch.
I agree with this sentiment and have felt it applies to Fox, Wolf, Pika, and perhaps Pit and sheik. Aside from MU specific BS like cgs I think their character designs are well balanced and versatile enough to never really limit the player from achieving success, and its transcended throughout the smash series (for those it applies to). I feel like it should apply to mario as well in the same way it did in melee and 64, above average with no outstanding traits, but results dont support that.I feel like Falco - by sheer character design - is best or 2nd best. When you add in CGs he suffers a lot though because not only do other charaters get an even bigger boost than him but he also is hurt by these CGs himself. I don't think he loses any match-up that doesn't involve a chaingrab though. It's just that he happens to lose those match-up quite badly.
Also RC is a fine Falco stage and FD is also good for falco against pika.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
^
I think you mean the 2nd Apex. First Apex was in 2009, and Brood wasn't there.
And no, Falco sucks
I think you mean the 2nd Apex. First Apex was in 2009, and Brood wasn't there.
And no, Falco sucks
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
are you joking? even with cgs falco has proven to win these MUs time and time again, not even because the cg doesn't skew it in their favor (it does), but his character design is so amazing that he has all the tools needed to win against his hardest MUs (he even has top level wins on pika albeit they are kinda outdated) and he does win. seriously im so astonished at people thinking falco could be anywhere outside of top 4, and right now he's 6th :/
(and some of his mus have became way too lenient on falco winning them, he wins and harder than listed)
damn looks like falco is in need of either a new hero or an old hero to show up outta nowhere and show em how it's done again
(and some of his mus have became way too lenient on falco winning them, he wins and harder than listed)
damn looks like falco is in need of either a new hero or an old hero to show up outta nowhere and show em how it's done again
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well, I would kinda hope that our Brawl community would be a little nicer than the Marvel one. I've been at Marvel tourneys where the slightest weird action is misinterpreted as trash-talk, and before you know it, you're swamped in it from all sides.
This isn't quite the same as asking someone to let you "counterpick them to hanenbow with the gentlemen's clause." Politely requesting quietness during a set doesn't benefit either side of the competition, while being loud potentially may. Of course, it's still up to the competitors and TOs but it shouldn't really be paired in the same category as radical counterpicks and such.
Well, people say a lot of things. What is it worth though if there's nothing to back it up with?
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Well that's my point, back then the match-up had been played a few times and ZSS usually won.Well, people say a lot of things. What is it worth though if there's nothing to back it up with?
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what?
Olimar has come a long way though...
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Mario's outstanding trait is terrible range (from standing, not from hurtbox) compared to most of the cast.
Nah, I hear Squirtle is her worst matchup.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Maybe D:
I hate squirtle when I am playing ZSS ugh
I hate squirtle when I am playing ZSS ugh
bubbaking
Smash Hero
You missed one thing: a good, versatile recovery. Falco has one of the shortest, most linear recoveries in the game. Also, his reflector isn't that good at actually reflecting things, if you ask me.
I don't think going even with Lucario, Pit, Kirby, Sheilda, Fox, and Sheik qualifies as 'crushing "everyone below him."'
Not to be a stickler or anything, but the Falco:MK MU doesn't involve CGs and Falco loses that one. I also think a few of his listed even MUs (Pit, Lucario, etc.) are actually in the other chars' favors even though no CGs are involved.
Um, Falco:Oli is +1 for Falco. Oli, one of the greatest campers, is simply out-camped here. MK beats Falco but not that badly. It's only a -1 and Falco is widely seen as a char who has one of the the best MUs against MK. Falco:Snake is even. Sure, Snake wins on some CPs, but imo, Falco wins on neutrals. He outcamps him and can always reflect projectiles as Raveous pointed out. Falco loses to Marth -1 (but that can be seen as even) and goes even with Diddy. As for DDD, most of the D3s (including me) on the DDD boards have pretty much agreed that the D3:Falco MU is -2 for Dedede.
Well, the inclusion of RC is still up to the TOs, isn't it? Don't just write it off as non-existent. There is no more recommended ruleset, so it's true that RC is no longer recommended as a legal CP, but it isn't expressly banned either. I'd still take it into account when factoring MUs and such. Same goes for PS2 and Brinstar. As for Frigate, that stage is a good CP for Falco, but only on the second part of the stage. On, the first part, Falco's recovery gets nerfed on the right side. It's fairly easy to gimp him, since there isn't a ledge.
You can't really use only two MUs as a reason that Pika shouldn't move above Falco. Pika arguably goes even with MK while Falco has an agreed -1. Pika also only slightly loses to ICs (many think it's actually even) while Falco gets bodied by them. In addition, Pika has an easier time against Marth; Pika:Marth is actually listed as 0, unlike the Falco:Marth MU (-1). Pika also beats Snake +1 (ESAM and many others believe it's actually +2) while Falco only goes even with him. Oh, and let's not forget that Pika destroys Falco, just like he does every Spacie. All of this evidence points towards Pika being above Falco.
How are ICs arguable? Aren't they Oli's worst MU at -2?
Umm, Mario's never really been "above average", though. He's bottom of B tier (average) in 64, and middle of D tier (lower mid, below average) in Melee. If anything, I'd say that Mario has been THE average set for Smash characters everywhere.
That literal TX logic...
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
People used to say Yoshi went even with MK and that we almost were a counter to him. Look at it now, MK is like, our 3rd hardest MU.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
People used to say that Ike countered MK. Remember that? XD
Nothing surprising really. ZSS only has -1's, so it makes sense that her worst MU would also be.......a -1.
Ummm, what do you mean by this?
Doesn't ZSS have some sort of infinite on Squirtle, though?
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Who doesnt have some sort of CG or infinite on squirtle?
Well, a chaingrab is usually not as bad as an infinite.
That said, a crouching/F-Tilting/D-Tilting Squirtle is too low to the ground for anything but the end (the fully-outstretched tip) of Zero Suit Samus's grab to connect, so it isn't at all reliable.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I mean it's a bad thing, and as an example of the range I mean, while Falcon may have a similar disjoint (nothing but where you can hit him is a hitbox), he has better range because his attacks extend further from a neutral point (standing straight). Mario has stubby limbs with disjoint on only 4 attacks: Fireball, Cape, FLUDD, fSmash. Though his head IS invincible during uSmash.Ummm, what do you mean by this?
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