Official BBR Tier List v6

[Matador]

Indeed - let's throw in an air time rule or something similar to abolish this disgraceful scrooging malarkey

Charizard's scrooging for example has been proven to be ridiculously broken and I for one feel the metagame would be much more healthy and diverse if we were to throw in a potential handicap for a multitude of characters at the expense of removing a tactic that can be used by only three out of the 39 characters in Brawl

...

Even if the rule gets rid of scrooging?

And besides, the rule would only come into play when the match goes to time, where the victor is THEN decided by percent lead, which is ALSO arbitrary.

You have 8 minutes and the opponent can no longer stall without risking a loss. They can still use the ledge as much as needed to recover (though not exceedingly so due to the LGL) and they can fly under the stage if they need to find a safe way to get back onstage, but they have to end the match. The timer's only there anyways to keep the tourney from going on too long, not for players to abuse it.

I highly doubt that everyone's going to be happy at the end of the day with whatever rule is put into place. Either ban MK, or quit *****-footing around these rules and make something that works.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Why don't we embrace the idea of stalling and make it a possible strategy? 2 stocks and only 5 minute timers to make it easier hehe

 

[BSP]

Yeah, air time isn't going to work. I think DMG brought it up, but just to reiterate, that means you need to stay even in stocks make wario fight/run/anything, and then just run away and go for a timeout and he loses.

 

[Ussi]

You could make the air time rule only take effect on MK

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

(Just to clarify I was being sarcastic I don't think an air time rule should be put in place)

Even if the rule gets rid of scrooging?

Yes because scrooging is not the problem. I have yet to see a Charizard scrooge (lol) and I don't remember Pit's scrooging being the grand subject of the 'scrooging problem' (correct me if I'm wrong). Whenever someone talks about scrooging and how it should be banned, it's always about Meta Knight and the same goes for planking as well to an extent

The problem is not scrooging. The problem is not planking. The problem is Meta Knight and like you said, people need to stop dancing around the subject and do something that works or ban him which I'm surprised hasn't been done yet, if just temporarily not permanently, considering the stack of 'for ban' stuff there is



And whilst we're sort of on the subject, using % after stock count to determine the winner in the case of a time out (as in, the person with the lowest % wins) isn't a perfect way of deciding who wins but at least in this case, we're punishing people for getting hit and taking damage, rather than punishing people for (as DMG said) jumping

 

[Matador]

How do you time someone out without scrooging, abusing the ledge, or getting excessive air-time?

You don't get punished for jumping too much unless 8 minutes pass. The only way that can happen is if you and your opponent aren't even fighting all that much to begin with.

If we get rid of MK, then fine, new set of rules. But UNTIL THEN, we need to sanction off his broken ****.

 

[BSP]

How do you time someone out without scrooging, abusing the ledge, or getting excessive air-time?

But Sonic's timeout strategy is no where near broken, so we don't need to worry about it.

 

[vVv Rapture]

You could make the air time rule only take effect on MK

...

Air time rule: Only for MK
LGL: Only for MK or only because of MK but imposed on everyone
Stalling: A problem, but mostly because of MK
RC/Brinstar: Average/decent stages, unless MK is on it.

Idk about you guys, but that looks like a pattern, and I've seen a lot of patterns in my days.

 

[Laem]

Every match that matters gets a jury of 10 who collectively decide the winner of the match.

ZINGGGGGGGGGG

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Well it depends - would the air time rule apply to all matches or just matches where someone is using a character who can Glide aka scrooge?

If you throw in an air time rule then technically you have to apply it to the other 36 characters who can't Glide...but if the air time rule is there purely to stop scrooging then you could just remove it from matches that include characters that can't 'scrooge' - but then you enter the dangerous territory of 'surgical nerfs' and people would argue that if you have to create a specific/arbitrary rule for a certain character then you might as well just ban the character

Every match that matters gets a jury of 10 who collectively decide the winner of the match.

ZINGGGGGGGGGG

I concur

But what happens if there is a 5/5 split? D:

 

[vVv Rapture]

Well it depends - would the air time rule apply to all matches or just matches where someone is using a character who can Glide aka scrooge?

If you throw in an air time rule then technically you have to apply it to the other 36 characters who can't Glide...but if the air time rule is there purely to stop scrooging then you could just remove it from matches that include characters that can't 'scrooge' - but then you enter the dangerous territory of 'surgical nerfs' and people would argue that if you have to create a specific/arbitrary rule for a certain character then you might as well just ban the character

Omg this isn't hard.

There shouldn't be an air time rule. Why is this like even being considered by anyone? Are you seriously going to punish people FOR LEAVING THE GROUND?

Come the **** on. I thought all of us here were at least somewhat coherent. I'm sorry, but when people are considering punishing characters for not having their feet planted on the ground because of one character being the obvious elephant in the room, then I really don't know what more I can say.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

...

Air time rule: Only for MK
LGL: Only for MK or only because of MK but imposed on everyone
Stalling: A problem, but mostly because of MK
RC/Brinstar: Average/decent stages, unless MK is on it.

Idk about you guys, but that looks like a pattern, and I've seen a lot of patterns in my days.

Deja vu?

I'm being serious guys. You want to keep talking about the same stuff over and over again when all you're doing is slowing the advancement of the metagame.

A decision needs to be made without keeping half of the community in contradiction with the other. needs to leave.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Omg this isn't hard.

There shouldn't be an air time rule. Why is this like even being considered by anyone? Are you seriously going to punish people FOR LEAVING THE GROUND?

Come the **** on. I thought all of us here were at least somewhat coherent. I'm sorry, but when people are considering punishing characters for not having their feet planted on the ground because of one character being the obvious elephant in the room, then I really don't know what more I can say.

As a guy who mains a character that spends a hell of a lot of time in the air, I am 100% against an air time rule which I've stated a lot

Just throwing out my 2 pennies on what I think if a rule such as that was to be implemented but I agree with you in that an air time rule should not be implemented

 

[vVv Rapture]

As a guy who mains a character that spends a hell of a lot of time in the air, I am 100% against an air time rule which I've stated a lot

Just throwing out my 2 pennies on what I think if a rule such as that was to be implemented but I agree with you in that an air time rule should not be implemented

My apologies, I didn't mean to like make it look like I was personally attacking you. I was just arguing the idea. Idk why I needed to quote your post, but I have nothing against you, sorry if it looked like it. xD

 

[NO-IDea]

First off, air time rule is ridiculous. Whoever brought that into the discussion did not understand the issue at hand.

We want to prevent broken/excessive stalling. This isn't MK exclusive. Whoever thinks it is isn't up to date with the metagame. A universal LGL fixes this issue altogether (except scrooging.) For those who think it punishes players with subpar recovery options, well too bad. This is a fighting game where recovery is an essential aspect. To create a ruleset to help out characters that don't have strong recovery options to get back on stage with is stupid.

Don't forget that this rule doesn't even come to effect unless the match goes to time out. To bring forth a previous example, if Snake v. DK results in a time-out but DK has over 50 ledge grabs, that is an extremely strong indication of excessive stalling behavior that occurred during the game. The DK obviously did not want to leave the ledge even though it would be the only way to deal more damage to the opponent. But likely, it was a match where the DK had over 50 ledge grabs but the match ended in 5 minutes. Yes, DK grabbed the ledge 5-6 times in succession, but it wasn't excessive stalling obviously because he must have gotten back on or died, otherwise done something to keep the match in progression.

The LGL doesn't punish characters with ****ty recovery options unless they proactively choose to stay on the ledge for an excessive amount of time. Thus, it's not really how many more ledge grabs they have (DK may have more the Pit, which may have more than Samus), but that they all at some point exceeded a limit and the game ended in time-out because of the time they spent on the ledge. Since we can't really measure "time spent on the ledge," we instead implement a reasonable limit for every character to follow.

Holy ****, is this really that hard to understand?

And finally, scrooging was just a method to go around the LGL as a method to stall. But it's not different from circular camping, reasons why we ban Temple and Luigi's Mansion. Again, is it really hard to say "no scrooging more than 'x' amount of times or you lose if timer goes out?" It's just literally creating an quantitative way of measuring STALLING, something that the ruleset does not accurately prohibit right now.

Stalling is the issue. Not MK. Outside of scrooging and planking, which may I remind everyone is not MK-exclusive, there hasn't been any other incident that would call for an MK ban. Not here. Not in EU. Not in Japan.

...

Air time rule: Only for MK
LGL: Only for MK or only because of MK but imposed on everyone
Stalling: A problem, but mostly because of MK
RC/Brinstar: Average/decent stages, unless MK is on it.

Idk about you guys, but that looks like a pattern, and I've seen a lot of patterns in my days.

Air time rule is stupid.

LGL is not because of just MK. It's because of any character capable of abusing the ledge doing so in tournament.

Stalling is never a problem. Broken stalling is. Excessive stalling is. This is the case of every fighting game. MK isn't the only one that can do it.

RC/Brinstar... get over it dude. I literally have no counter-argument because that's a preposterous statement to defend banning MK in the first place. Because he has a strong advantage on those two stages? Really? That's a reason?

 

[Ussi]

How do you propose to limit MK's stall ability without ruining other character's gameplay

MK has the smallest LGL

 

[NO-IDea]

What other character's gameplay would be ruined?

Maharba and I already agreed a scrooging rule probably would not affect Pit, the next likely character to abuse it.

What time-outs have you seen where a LGL has ruined a character's gameplay? No evidence supports that a LGL hurts any character. It barely hurts MK.

A LGL hurts players, not characters. It certainly hurts M2K and any player who doesn't put the effort to learn a MU and try to gay their way out instead.

 

[Matador]

Seems pretty sound to me.

Now to wait 4-5 months before a change is actually implemented in the Unity Ruleset...

 

[DMG]

35 lgl for MK

Don't care what you say

Scrooging limit

Don't care what you say

I camp onstage off stage in the air on the ground in my shield through yours this IS THE LIFE THIS IS THE STORY NA-NA-NA-NAHHHHHHHHH THIS IS METAAAAKNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

 

[Ussi]

What time-outs have you seen where a LGL has ruined a character's gameplay? No evidence supports that a LGL hurts any character. It barely hurts MK.

A LGL hurts players :|

Chibo has advocated the LGL ruining ROB's planking. Especially when its all he can do vs DDD

 

[NO-IDea]

And I advocate an LGL even though the Samus v D3 MU is impossible without extreme planking.

What's your point? Again, it's more or less the player complaining as back then all Chibo would do is camp the ledge. It doesn't really change the MU of Rob v D3.

EDIT: And on that note, I also advocate grab infinites. Thereby making the Samus v D3 MU even worse. It's just part of the game and why I have a secondary. D3's infinite on Samus doesn't all of a sudden break the game. A fair amount of characters being capable of camping the ledge for an entire match does.

 

[John12346]

I like how people seem to think MK will end up being a bad character without grabbing the ledge a billion times or scrooging

MK did not get 45% of the money and no disadvantageous matchups through flying under the stage alone.

Edit: Just for clarification I'm pro-LGL to some extent, but anti-MK-specifically-has-a-lower-LGL

 

[NO-IDea]

Exactly. This doesn't really harm MK as a character at all. It's not as if we're targetting him. The LGL is supposed to be universal to prevent a stalling playstyle in general. People think we're shaping these planking and scrooging rules because of the character when it's certain players and their stalling playstyles we should not be approving.

And again, I'll admit that MK is the biggest offender. IMO, I think a MK stalling for time is unbeatable. No matter how much you theorycraft, it's too hard to cover all of MK's recovery options. But the game is supposed to be played for stocks, not percent. If there were no timer, there wouldn't be a reason for MK, or any character to stall on the ledge in the first place.

On the fence about MK having a lower LGL, but as long as a LGL for everyone is in place, fine.

 

[John12346]

Well, people see the reasoning behind MK having an obviously lowered LGL as a criteria for ban as the same reason they see the existence of an LGL to begin with as a criteria for ban, as well. Y'know, the whole "MK is too good under an ideal ruleset and hence he needs to be banned because we have to limit him in order to keep him in line with the rest of the cast" reasoning.

I'll leave other people to argue why we think it's true, but AFAIK that's how we see things right about now.

 

[Coney]

I concur

But what happens if there is a 5/5 split? D:

they all get yellow cards

 

[-LzR-]

If there was an amount of glides thing at the end of the match, we could do a glide limit of some kind. Limiting it to like 20-30 glides. More than enough to play normally, but not enough to scrooge for stalling reasons.

All this LGL and airtime rules and such bring even more problems than they fix in the first place. If I was to decide, MK would have to go, but he has been beaten before. I think LGL overall makes the game better. I wouldn't want this game to be a plankfest, even with characters who don't have broken ledge options. Kinda like DK. He cannot get up from the ledge without getting *****, but man is he good at staying there. DK would no longer have to get back from the ledge, ever, if he has the lead. This would probably not affect results or anything, but it would make the game that much more boring.

 

[Orion*]

I'm wondering when Deimos will make this list. His MK is good and he's actually one of the people who fulfills the "liche of EU being all aggro.

I don't see anyone getting better than those 3 in a short period of time tbh

like, unless another top player starts using MK. but even then I don't see Istudys angry meta doing that much lol. Jens maybe but he's lazy and doesn't practice at all. More than he's willing to admit but not enough to jump skill gaps, only enough to stay where he is.

I have never been able to really stall with Puff. She's not that good at it.

Are you kidding me?

Why would anyone try to footstool MK out of his glide lol. That's like being bowser and trying to side b someone in the bottom corner of the screen.. you're not gonna make it back.

Like, so can ivysaur by going beneath the stage and up b'ing him.

ddd can beat scrooging by just Super Dedede Jump'ing MK while MK is beneath the stage

EE-YOHP

I was asking a question you stupid ****.

and that didn't answer it.

they all get yellow cards

I love all of these posts LMAO

I'd prefer LGL over air time. Air time punishes people for:

1. Jumping
2. Being juggled
3. Being sent offstage

I'd rather not punish people for some of the most basic gameplay actions and scenarios. Even more basic than grabbing the edge.

This

Why punish people for JUMPING when I can ban the character?

Also this. Like characters like Falco would hard counter wario. He's not gonna approach from the ground he has to jump and ish, falco could just keep running away until time is reached :<

Chibo has advocated the LGL ruining ROB's planking. Especially when its all he can do vs DDD

I'm sorry Chibo is only capable of playing the game 1 way. He will figure it out and get better lol

 

[-LzR-]

No, really. Puff is fast in the air, but keeping a lead with her is not nearly as safe as with MK or Wario. Puff can't suddenly switch directions or punish you heavily or anything sort of like that.

 

[John12346]

^ I thought Jigglypuff was good at changing directions in midair??

Also, Orion...

Edit: Actually, never mind, now might not be the time for this...

 

[-LzR-]

Puff doesn't have Wariolike mobility. She is faster though. The difference is the risk/reward factor. Puff can still be punished heavily from a single mistake and she can't hit you hard in return without risking herself.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol Orion, you know Deimos' MK has taken sets off Leon before and that he just outplaced Kaos the other weekend? He's probably held back by laziness/young age more than Jumpman imo. As much as I like him, I don't see Jumpman surpassing his "prime" anymore compared to Deimos who has still plenty of room/motivation for improvement. Pretty sure he's gonna **** soon enough.

 

[DMG]

Jumpman still plays?!??

 

[Orion*]

^ I thought Jigglypuff was good at changing directions in midair??

Also, Orion...

Edit: Actually, never mind, now might not be the time for this...

Puff doesn't have Wariolike mobility. She is faster though. The difference is the risk/reward factor. Puff can still be punished heavily from a single mistake and she can't hit you hard in return without risking herself.

Thats why she's a bad character. Either way, don't make a mistake lol.

lol Orion, you know Deimos' MK has taken sets off Leon before and that he just outplaced Kaos the other weekend? He's probably held back by laziness/young age more than Jumpman imo. As much as I like him, I don't see Jumpman surpassing his "prime" anymore compared to Deimos who has still plenty of room/motivation for improvement. Pretty sure he's gonna **** soon enough.

I don't know Deimos, so I have no say about where his motivations are and unless you know him as well I doubt anything holds that much weight. All I know is that I see vids of him being uploaded from tournaments more than I see Jens touching the game . Jens has ****ing horrible execution most of the time because of this, so imo to me

players like him gregs and T have never even had a prime. they don't even play the game enough to have a prime.

They all are smart players. But they don't play at all. The fact that they even pose as threats out of country actually disturbs me sometimes. Gregs and T moreso than Jens, but who knows. I honestly think if I could give gregs half of energy to practice homie would honestly be top 3 in EU easily, but he's not.

But either way, it doesn't really matter and wasn't my point. Motivation is someones personal problem, so if you're unmotivated and therefore bad because of it, you're still bad. There are talented people working at McDonalds. I'm quite the firm believer of hard work > talent.

If Deimos really wants to get better, more than Kaos, and Leon ect then he will put in the work and in time it will show. I have no doubt about that, because to be honest I think the same goes for anyone. I'm just saying atm, I don't see anything changing for a little while. At least until after the summer. Maybe I'm wrong, he could put in work and change that, but unless he has been playing suddenly a LOT more than he has the past year I don't see it.

 

[Juushichi]

I'm saying, though. We really need a MKL. get a good, objective number of times that one can use Meta Knight in tournaments be it pools or whatever.

It's so easy to monitor. "Are they using MK?" If so, it goes to the limit that they have. If they go over, they get DQ'd from the tournament. It's even strategically sound. You have to save your MK for important matches. You wanna MK Brinstar a guy? Use one of your MK uses.

People can stop complaining and get better then. Of course first we need air time limits, LGLs, hit % a scrooging limit and everything else. At this point there will be no choice to shut the **** up and play the game.

 

[Ripple]

a LGL for only MK, a glide rule for MK, an air time limit for MK, a no double character team (aimed at MK specifically), MK doesn't get CPs, and now a you can only use MK a certain number of times per tournament.

now all we need to say is that MK can't auto cancel tornado and we might have a fair character

Oh wait >_>

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

seriously, when you think about, what were they thinking when they made this character? just look at him....

 

[Juushichi]

Tbh, I think drill rush should be a much better move. Remember that they actually nerfed Tornado from how it is in the Kirby games.

 

[vVv Rapture]

a LGL for only MK, a glide rule for MK, an air time limit for MK, a no double character team (aimed at MK specifically), MK doesn't get CPs, and now a you can only use MK a certain number of times per tournament.

now all we need to say is that MK can't auto cancel tornado and we might have a fair character

Oh wait >_>

This. x1000 this.

I don't understand why people advocate rules to limit the character when we can just ban the ****er.

With that logic, the SSF2Turbo community shouldn't have banned Akuma, they should have just limited him to one attack every twenty seconds and he can't block against someone attacking after he uses a fireball and he can only be used once per every three tournament rounds.

 

[M@v]

The double character rule got dropped remember?

 

[MARLX]

Introduction
------------------------------------------------------

Here is the Brawl Back Room's sixth release of its tier list. Unlike the past six month release schedule, this list has come [just over] nine months since version five; we feel that the game has reached a certain level of maturity that does not require as frequent updates - this period of time may be lengthened for subsequent releases.
Also unlike our last release, the BBR has 'split' from rule set creation - and with the unity rule set becoming a growing standard voters were requested to take the unity rule set into account. However, as always, votes placed were based on their own opinion.

Character specific comments will be added within the next few days

BBR Match Up Chart | BBR RC Unity Ruleset

Ver.6
------------------------------------------------------

God
S: (±0)

Top
A: (+1) (-1) (±0)
B: (+1) (-1) (±0) (±0) (±0)

High
C: (+2) (-1) (+1) (-2) (±0)

Middle
D: (+1) (+6) (+2)
E: (+2) (-4) (-3) (-3) (+2)
F: (+2) (-1) (-4) (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1)

Low
G: (±0) (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1)
Hyrule++: (+1) (-1) (±0): (±0)​

Condensed Version:
S: Meta Knight
A: Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco
B: Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu
C: Lucario, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link
D: Fox, Wolf, Peach
E: Donkey Kong, Kirby, R.O.B., Pit, Sonic
F: Ike, Sheik/Zelda, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer
G: Lucas, Mario, Bowser, Samus, Captain Falcon
H: Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

Low tier tournaments have lost Yoshi. Middle tier tournaments have lost Toon Link

Previous Tier Lists
v1 (September 1, 2008)
v2 (January 1, 2009)
v3 (June 5, 2009)
v4 (February 26, 2010)
v5 (September 25, 2010)

Individual Character Movement
------------------------------------------------------


Voting Procedure & Data
-----------------------------------

Stage one consisted of voting characters in order within three sections (high [1-13], middle [1-15] and low [1-10]). Stage two took the characters which closely bordered High/Middle and Middle/Low and again were voted for in order.

Stage 1

Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Meta Knight	1	1	1	0	1	1
Diddy Kong	2.25	2	2	0.433	2	3
Snake		3.19	3	3	1.025	2	6
Falco		4.07	4	4	0.752	2	7
Marth		5.80	5	6	1.736	3	10
Wario		6.55	6	6	1.425	3	10
Ice Climbers	7.08	7	7	1.526	5	10
Captain Olimar	7.48	8	8	1.017	5	9
Pikachu		7.66	9	8	1.538	3	10
King Dedede	10.78	10	10.5	1.097	8	13
Lucario		10.94	10,11	11	0.914	9	13
Zero Suit Samus	11.92	12,13	12	0.979	9	13
Mr.Game & Watch	12.23	13	13	0.963	10	13
						
						
Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Toon Link	14.78	14	14	1.410	14	21
Fox		15.64	15	15	1.528	14	20
Wolf		17.60	16	17	2.820	14	25
Peach		17.73	16	17	1.875	15	23
Donkey Kong	18.94	18	19	2.090	15	26
Kirby		19.26	21	19	2.279	15	23
R.O.B.		19.32	20	19	3.145	15	28
Pit		19.91	20	20	2.316	15	25
Sonic		20.75	18,22	21	2.301	17	24
Ike		23.05	23	23	1.597	18	27
Luigi		24.07	24	23	1.781	20	28
Sheik / Zelda	24.37	25	25	2.100	18	27
Sheik		26.00	26	26	1.658	19	28
Ness		26.10	27	26	1.175	23	28
Pokémon Trainer	27.42	28	28	1.251	22	28
						
						
Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Yoshi		29.05	29	29	0.293	29	31
Lucas		30.41	30	30	0.921	29	35
Mario		31.19	31	31	1.108	30	36
Bowser		32.69	32	32	1.602	30	37
Samus		33.37	33	33	1.494	31	38
Captain Falcon	33.92	34	34	1.207	32	37
Link		35.30	35	35	1.534	31	38
Jigglypuff	35.66	36	36	1.479	32	38
Zelda		35.73	37	36	1.797	30	38
Ganondorf	37.64	38	38	0.874	34	38

Stage 2

Character	Average
Lucario		1.93
King Dedede	1.96
Zero Suit Samus	2.89
Mr.Game & Watch	4.36
Toon Link	4.59
Fox		5.88
Wolf		6.77
Peach		7.63
	
Character	Average
Ike		1.41
Sheik/Zelda	3.02
Luigi		3.18
Sheik		4.27
Ness		4.64
Yoshi		5.32
Pokémon Trainer	6.66
Lucas		7.66
Mario		8.84

Character Movement Explained
------------------------------------------------------

14. Toon Link ±0 (Middle to High)


16. Wolf +6


18. Donkey Kong +2


Come back [for more] later =)

DISCUSS AWAY!​

This tier list was very unexpected and also very surprizing. (hyrule tier LOL).