Official BBR Tier List v6

[NO-IDea]

If the DK has no options to get onstage without getting *****, why go onstage to get *****? Even so, sometimes he may need to grab the ledge 5-6+ times before even being able to get back. If that happens a few times, that's already a lot of ledge grabs.

You and I both agree it's an unfavorable position. DK is practically forced to risk getting hurt or stay on the ledge. Which is why it confuses me how you don't believe the other player shouldn't be rewarded if they are able to force this bad position on DK to the point that he goes over a lgl AND it goes to time.

Can you direct me where "on stage" came from? I don't recall those two words.

I didn't think you where the strict interpretation kind of guy. But, and I don't know the words ver batim, but doesn't the tutorial state something along the lines of knock them off stage? You have to recover? Etc?

Furthermore, the entire game revolves around hitting people so they can't get back on stage. Gimping, recovering? These aren't common fighting game mechanics.

Yep. I do believe % is somewhat flawed, but it's the best we have, a necessary evil.

It is indeed. But there still should be a breaking point where a player with say 50 lgs shouldn't beat a player with 20 even if he has the stock or percent lead. Under what circumstances should the player have had that many lgs unless he purposefully stalled on the ledge? Can you think of a scenario?

I agree, but it depends on our interpretation of "control."

Control of the match should be interpreted on the win condition. Take their stocks aka permanently knock them off stage aka be the last man standing. Again, you don't need to interpret onstage so strictly. I'm not asking to measure ground time or air time.

Where did the whole onstage thing come from?
Against Ice climbers, a lot of characters' metagames revolves around camping the platforms while the ICs usually keep center stage.

Not so strictly. ;/ I only measure being on the ledge as negative because you're trying to get back on. The more times you've grabbed the ledge indicates how often you were probably knocked off...

Heck, some characters rely heavily on that kind of gameplay, such as Toon Link.

DK on the ledge is safer than DK getting hit by the opponent's traps when he gets back on.

DK, and almost everyone else's ledgeplay are also not that difficult to hit. It just evens out the risk/reward for both players instead of highly in the opponent's favor.

Offstage is an essential part of gameplay, just like onstage and high in the air. If you suck at playing offstage, there shouldn't be rules to help you walk around this.

It's not helping them san. It's hurting them. Just how having a bad recovery makes link a bad character. The rule should reflect the game. Your character not having a reliable method to get back on stage should hurt you.

I asked about the ledge and platforms, because some characters' platform camping are also pretty strong. They are definitely reachable, and there are ways to beat it out.

You're not fully invincible at the ledge. Most characters can't even throw out an aerial without losing invincibility halfway through.

Taking the ledge away also prevents this, and it may cost the opponent or give them a free way to get back to the stage.


I never heard of this win condition. You win if you're on stage? What the heck?

I answered the points in the quote. It's hard to do anything advanced on mobile.

The disbelief is astounding though. What the heck? Really? I hope it was a misinterpretation of terms, because I could have sworn being the last man on stage was how you won the game. That game set in stock mode no time meant the opponent was no longer on stage and never could be again.

Look, I see no personal gain from this. I lose to neo all the time because he's really good at punishing ledge recoveries and I can't reliably get back on stage. I could plank and never get hit. But I would then also concede because I was in the worse position for so long if it went to time.

 

[Tesh]

oh-ess-eff

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it's the last person on the screen is the winner bro. it don't matter if your at the bottom, top, or hell even dying in background, if you are on the screen, not the stage, last then you win

 

[Tesh]

well actually......

 

[Coney]

Noid, I get what you're saying but I think your methodology is flawed. I understand what you mean about someone holding the dominant position on the stage, or rather on the ground of the stage, but the fallacy here is that the stage is the best position. It is certainly the dominant position, but the actual ground, the actual static platform of Smashville itself, is no more a part of the stage than the moving one. The stage itself encompasses everything, from the static platform to the moving one to the little dudes in the back to the balloon that passes by sporadically.

I understand and appreciate you're trying to take an approach to combating scrooging and suggesting a way to approach it, but the problem with your practice is the same as the one that most others find. It's actually similar to the air time rule, in which the one with higher air time loses. Yours makes sense more than any other approach I've seen, but it possesses similar issues.

 

[Thebest1pj]

tesh stop posting in that effin font.

and seagull imo

and our s death mus

 

[NO-IDea]

I guess the terminolgy of "on stage" isn't the most accurate. On screen would be.

However, shouldn't your character flailing on the side of the screen, gripping for dear life onto the ledge to survive 50 or so times more (just an example, not setting a number) mean you were in a losing position more if it went to time?

The problem with stalling isn't mk exclusive, although he is the biggest offender. How many examples are we going to need until universal lgl is fully enforced everywhere?

And on that note, how many examples of mk v gnes or mk v meep are we going to need before scrooging is enforced everywhere? No, pit is not affected. Your best performing pit right now is earth at genesis and I doubt he scrooged as many times as you've claimed. There is a video of masashi vs 9b where he scrooged but it didn't go to time so yet again, this rule has yet to ever affect your character.

Just to be clear, I only advocate scrooging rule to be in effect in timed out matches, similar to lgl. The idea is to first punish stalling, and then if stalling didn't occur and it went to time, go to percent.

If you hit above a threshold in lgs and it hits time, I'd say that's excessive stalling, no matter what character you are.

 

[Coney]

Oh yeah, I agree with your approach and would probably adopt it before any other. Being on stage is, to be sure, the dominant position in Brawl, and in Smash altogether. You have all options, all jumps refreshed, no limitations, control of your ground and your zone, etc.

But, and I'm sure you realize this, just like any other anti-scrooging approach, there are issues. Scrooging is just incredibly problematic and extremely difficult to approach and ban from an objective perspective. Then again, though, I'm sure many said the same of ledge grabs before the LGL was implemented. We've had to wrangle and tame worse and more universal rules in the game before, so I don't think a solution is impossible, but it's very, very difficult.

And as a side note, I think if scrooging and planking could be reasonably contained, if we could find a way to actually keep it manageable, the pro-ban side would be satisfied and wouldn't push for the ban. It's only because the task seems so impossible, so unfathomable, and since M2K has shown he is a true innovator of gay, that people just honestly don't see a way out.

 

[Tesh]

Problem with the universal LGL rule is it can be abused to help characters win by stalling, if they dont ledge grab. Wario, or Sonic for example could force alot of ledge grabs on characters like Marth or Pit and then run away. I've timed out matches with anywhere from 1 to 9 ledge grabs as Sonic when my opponent had 30+ simply because of how my character functions.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Scrooging isn't the problems........... *insert broken record statement* blah blah blah..... Etc mk blah

 

[vVv Rapture]

Tesh stop using that font, it's so annoying. xD

To be honest, having to put all these limitations just because of one character blah blah blah, you've all heard it before. Making rules for everyone but really just for MK is stupid, but unless we ban him, that's all we can do or we deal with it. But there's not true way to make MK not as gay unless you limit everyone else, too.

Oh well.

 

[Thebest1pj]

You don't have to put an xD at the end to lighten the statement.

 

[vVv Rapture]

You don't have to put an xD at the end to lighten the statement.

Yeah, you're right. I just didn't want to look mean.

But seriously it's ****ing annoying, stop using it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

oh i got you noid. only if the match goes to time then the whole "you scrooged this many times" would come into effect, i can dig that. also most pit's don't scrooge as much as i do, because i have a belief when im playing that if i have to recover from below, it is always safest to go to the side the opponent isn't on. but if i scrooge a lot and still win by ko and the scrooging isn't punished, then im down with that. i guess i misinterpreted your txt.

 

[Thebest1pj]

There ya go.

 

[DMG]

Grabbing the edge 100 times with ganon is stalling

BUT

It's not broken stalling

Running away from my opponent as Wario for 8 minutes is stalling

BUT

It's not broken stalling

We don't ban the ability to stall. If we did, we would make a rule that says you are forced to always approach. What we try to ban is excessive or broken stalling.

IDC for example is banned because we have no way to limit it effectively. If there was an objective, fair way for us to say "Ok you can extend the cape, but no longer than X seconds or X amount of times", we would have. But there just isn't. There's not a clear, non fuzzy line over what would be broken stalling and what would not. You could have two examples for each on the far end of the spectrum that make sense, but anything approaching "the middle" would be HEAVY grey area.

Planking is kinda the same thing. We want people to be able to grab the edge, just not use it in a broken stalling manner. The question though is WHAT IS using the edge in a broken stalling manner?

Grabbing the edge 35 times? 30? 50? 10? Does it matter what you do once or after you grab the edge? Does it matter what character you have picked, and their specific options from the edge? Etc


Grabbing the edge a LOT can be stalling. Grabbing the edge minimally is probably not stalling. The question is, what's the line between the two? The answer: good ****ing luck.

 

[BSP]

Tesh's posts are visible on classic blue

Purple is evil though

 

[Thebest1pj]

No ones gonna switch to classic blue to view someones post.

 

[Tesh]

I use classic green, and I can't read any of PJs posts. Its starting to piss me off tbh.

 

[Thebest1pj]

tesh u look like a used condom

 

[Exdeath]

IDC for example is banned because we have no way to limit it effectively. If there was an objective, fair way for us to say "Ok you can extend the cape, but no longer than X seconds or X amount of times", we would have. But there just isn't.

Actually, Japan did that and some MKs there do indeed use it in limited capacity -- mainly as a way to escape a ledge trap (which is extremely good).

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

loooooool pj! i just about spit my water all over my lap top when i read that!

 

[Matador]

I highly doubt that we're magically going to come up with a rule that is completely competitively sound while still properly combating excessive stalling. After all, there are holes in just about every sanction and limitation in the current Brawl ruleset.

My solution? Pick a suggested rule out of a hat and accept the consequences that come along with it. The time-out + air-time rule seems good enough...

 

[DMG]

I'd prefer LGL over air time. Air time punishes people for:

1. Jumping
2. Being juggled
3. Being sent offstage

I'd rather not punish people for some of the most basic gameplay actions and scenarios. Even more basic than grabbing the edge.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A time out rule that would include ledge grabs (not a LGL) and percentage would be great. The problem is finding the last rule to determine the winner of the time out.

 

[Matador]

I'd prefer LGL over air time. Air time punishes people for:

1. Jumping
2. Being juggled
3. Being sent offstage

I'd rather not punish people for some of the most basic gameplay actions and scenarios. Even more basic than grabbing the edge.

Can't there be a rule that uses both?

If a match goes to time, the player that goes over LGL loses.

If the match goes to time and neither goes over LGL, then most air-time loses.

Sloppy, arbitrary, incomplete...yes, but it solves the problem, correct?

 

[DMG]

Why punish people for JUMPING when I can ban the character?

 

[Meru.]

Can't there be a rule that uses both?

If a match goes to time, the player that goes over LGL loses.

If the match goes to time and neither goes over LGL, then most air-time loses.

Sloppy, arbitrary, incomplete...yes, but it solves the problem, correct?

It doesn't solve the problem at all. It means you can lose a match that goes to time if you spend too much time in the air even though you didn't abuse ledge tactics. So if you have 6 ledge grabs, 1 stock 9% and 329875438967856 seconds of air time you will still lose in a case of a time out vs. someone with 44 ledge grabs, 1 stock 253% and 45 seconds of air time.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Why punish people for JUMPING when I can ban the character?

Deja vu...?

This is common sense that no one around here can get through their skulls.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sounds like a classic MK vs ganon match to me

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

By the way, I didn't know we were trying to make non-broken characters like Falco and Wario worse. I would've stopped coming to this site sooner if I knew we were still trying to make bad surgical changes...

 

[Matador]

Why punish people for JUMPING when I can ban the character?

That, detective, is the right question.

It doesn't solve the problem at all. It means you can lose a match that goes to time if you spend too much time in the air even though you didn't abuse ledge tactics. So if you have 6 ledge grabs, 1 stock 9% and 329875438967856 seconds of air time you will still lose in a case of a time out vs. someone with 44 ledge grabs, 1 stock 253% and 45 seconds of air time.

But can the MK scrooge?

 

[Meru.]

I don't remember mentioning MK in my post. The match might also have been Jigglypuff vs Lucas. Do you only want to enforce such rules in matches with MK or in all matches?

Anyway, I understand what you mean. To answer your question: No, in that scenario scrooging was not banned, but the Metaknight (or any other character) player did not scrooge at all. The player merely spent much time in the air, and that would cause the loss.

 

[PKNintendo]

Why punish people for JUMPING when I can ban the character?

 

[Matador]

I don't remember mentioning MK in my post. The match might also have been Jigglypuff vs Lucas. Do you only want to enforce such rules in matches with MK or in all matches?

Anyway, I understand what you mean. To answer your question: No, in that scenario scrooging was not banned, but the Metaknight (or any other character) player did not scrooge at all. The player merely spent much time in the air, and that would cause the loss.

Yeah, I can't think of a completely air-tight rule that makes everyone happy AND eliminates scrooging.

So the alternative is eliminating scrooging while minimizing all of the other issues that come from that.

If both parties know beforehand that you lose if the match goes to time and you have more air-time if neither of you goes pass the LGL, then they can prepare for that. The opponent can't really FORCE you to be in the air longer than them for 8 minutes without engaging you, and they can't stall without increasing their own air time or ledge grabs.

More aerial characters suffer a tad more, but at the expense of eliminating scrooging? I'd think it's worth it. At least until another issue with the rule presents itself.

 

[Llumys]

Why don't we just ban every character other than Meta Knight? That way, scrooging would no longer be a problem.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Problems
Gay stuff happens that you do not want to happen.

Solutions
1) Figure out a strategy.
2) Become amazing.
3) Don't care.
4) Quit.
5) Attempt a ruleset revolution.

I hope most agree with 1-3.

 

[Yikarur]

or ban MK because MK is probably the trigger. :D

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

or just leave the game as it is and bring around japes and norfair and ggs and pirate ship and ptad to counterpick MK too oh wait wrong thread

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Indeed - let's throw in an air time rule or something similar to abolish this disgraceful scrooging malarkey

Charizard's scrooging for example has been proven to be ridiculously broken and I for one feel the metagame would be much more healthy and diverse if we were to throw in a potential handicap for a multitude of characters at the expense of removing a tactic that can be used by only three out of the 39 characters in Brawl

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