Official BBR Tier List v6

[Mr-R]

We've had tournaments here in NYC where Brinstar wasn't legal. MK still placed too high.

Also Mr-R, out of curiosity, who are the best 3 MKs in Europe? Exclude Ally and Orion, obv, since they're not EU

Kaos/Staco/Bjay in no order

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm wondering when Deimos will make this list. His MK is good and he's actually one of the people who fulfills the "liche of EU being all aggro.

 

[M@v]

That's because everytime someone CPs it its either alreayd a fight with MK or one player switches to MK for a free win. No one wants to CP others there because they will get pocket MKed. Brinstar is a great CP for Wario, GW, Luigi, DK, Marth (sometimes at least from what i hear), too bad MK is better than all of them there.

Ike actually does pretty good there too.

 

[OverLade]

I'm pretty sure that Shaya is referring to a low glide.

My point is that your opponent should never be able to safely get anywhere near you when you're gliding. And I've definitely NEVER heard of any top player successfully footstooling a top MK in tourney consistently or more than once.

I actually do practice scrooging and level 9 CPUs (Falco and Snake CPUs are very difficult to react to) will randomly run-off and foot stool me (which it can definitely force you to use a B move to recover a.k.a. grab the ledge). Something that M2K forgot to add was that you can glide high (running just below the stage on the destination side -- this also makes it so that a foot stool won't kill you) and then you have several mix-ups against anyone trying to foot stool him. Some particularly good ones are:

-MK can glide to the ledge and from there you can either be off-stage or you'll react to him grabbing the ledge by double jumping toward the stage early, a.k.a. in a juggle position by the ledge without your double jump. If MK is wrong then he's on the ledge and used one ledge grab (Fox/Falco would probably be safe from being punished this way).

-MK can cancel before he reaches the end of the stage and then jump>Down-B and react to the opponent to recover onto the platform or onto the stage. Alternatively, MK can Up-B (some characters like Snake have options to trade beat someone throwing out aerial Up-Bs by the ledge) and cancel tip of the Up-B onto the platform.

As a side note, it is easily possible for Meta Knight to eat 30+ seconds off of a clock with one scrooge by using Up-B off the top of the screen. MK will have to take a hit that the opponent can prepare for, but that still excludes move likes Snake's Fsmash.

Yes yes and yes.

 

[DMG]

M2K v ADHD was going to go to time on smashville first match.
I'm pretty sure M2K got told something along the lines of 'scroogings probably banned' (he didn't know; in fact it wasn't) and he got back on stage. It was less than 30 seconds on the clock IIRC.

Smashville can be dangerous for MK to scrooge on, but most characters have absolutely no chance to combat it (only the characters with fast running speeds can even have a chance).
MK is very susceptible to getting footstooled in his glide, while he can just side b to the ledge you're not running towards that's adding towards his ledge grabs (and then the platform isn't available for him again). For characters with good fast falls/vertical recoveries (MK, Snake, Marth, Wario, Pikachu, ZSS) one mess up from MK can be his stock. Inb4 you say I'm full of crap but this actually is a legit counter to scrooging that M2K has talked to me about, he's said to me he doesn't 'scrooge' against people who know how to beat it. Its around the same level of "balls" required as going off stage to footstool snake's c4 stuff.

Footstooling MK out of Glide doesn't **** him like Footstooling Snake though.

Lmao at this nonsense. There's absolutely no such thing as unsafe scrooging on smashville.

MK can just glide low, and come up by the platform. If his opponent tries any funnny business by the platform or ledge he can just unglide and use Uair/Tornado to safely land on stage or force his opponent off the ledge. It can only even be mildly an issue if you start gliding with only a few jumps left, in which case they might be able to force you to side B or tornado, but you have so many options anyway that you probably shouldn't get punished if you're smart about it...

You can cancel a glide and go back to the first edge/reverse shuttle loop back onstage and they can't punish it unless they are sonic Fox Falco etc.

or do 100 other things

As I said, this is what M2K told me. You got to realise that a player can get a footstool jump without 'footstooling' the opponent, and the range of a footstool jump is disjointed as well. You can footstool MK without getting hit by uair, and tornado is very easy to avoid getting hit by to footstool.

I personally practised as Marth against his MK with him 'scrooging' on smashville. If he cancelled and started something else I would still get a footstool jump, if he was trolling he would try to kill you with a shuttle loop which like 90% of the time would kill him as well. Cancelling into uair may get him a string if you were low percent at the time, but there is a bit of lag after cancelling a glide.

I wonder how many people actually sit down and practise against scrooging [on smashville] with their character.

I've practiced. I've chased MK's under Smashville while they try to time me out, and fart on them under the stage to win the match.

And you know what, I had to hope he would be scared and airdodge or do "not that great" action x for that to even be possible. Which is bull****.

I'm wondering when Deimos will make this list. His MK is good and he's actually one of the people who fulfills the "liche of EU being all aggro.

I have heard good things about this man.

 

[Coney]

are you honestly comparing footstooling a character with only one midair jump, almost no aerial mobility to speak of, and an upb where he literally bares his entire body with a character with five midair jumps and four near-invincible recovery moves, one of which can move him across half of the entire stage of smashville?

m2k has a history of...i don't want to say not knowing what he's talking about, but underrating his options, or trying to defend his play with options that simply don't exist. this may be anecdotal but once, quite a while ago i was playing ally's mk and friendlies, and m2k was chastising me for not just di'ing out, and then insisted that ddd could get out of nado every time with the right motions.

great player, not a bad guy, but he has a tendency to say "no, this isn't THAT gay, you can do THIS!" when THIS actually doesn't exist.

 

[Exdeath]

are you honestly comparing footstooling a character with only one midair jump, almost no aerial mobility to speak of, and an upb where he literally bares his entire body with a character with five midair jumps and four near-invincible recovery moves, one of which can move him across half of the entire stage of smashville?

m2k has a history of...i don't want to say not knowing what he's talking about, but underrating his options, or trying to defend his play with options that simply don't exist. this may be anecdotal but once, quite a while ago i was playing ally's mk and friendlies, and m2k was chastising me for not just di'ing out, and then insisted that ddd could get out of nado every time with the right motions.

great player, not a bad guy, but he has a tendency to say "no, this isn't THAT gay, you can do THIS!" when THIS actually doesn't exist.

Shaya's example essentially assumes that MK will be gliding to the platform, in which case Meta Knight will be traveling in a specific path that prevents him from avoiding you and does not give him any offensive options due to foot stool out-ranging/-disjointing glide attack. In that sense Shaya isn't wrong. The problem is that no Meta Knight player worth his salt should be caught with it and that MK is much more difficult -- if not impossible -- to foot stool chain to death.

 

[Coney]

well yeah but that's the point

"i have a solution to MK if he does option A"
"okay but what if he does option B, C or D?"
"um you have to be in a completely different position"

even if you can beat all of MK's planking/scrooging abilities individually, how are you going to beat all four of them in conjunction, short of an ASTROLOGICAL read?

 

[Luco]

Marth just has a field day when it comes to lucas, i find. Tut tut tut....

 

[Exdeath]

well yeah but that's the point

"i have a solution to MK if he does option A"
"okay but what if he does option B, C or D?"
"um you have to be in a completely different position"

even if you can beat all of MK's planking/scrooging abilities individually, how are you going to beat all four of them in conjunction, short of an ASTROLOGICAL read?

If someone was interested in doing this, the best method is to stand by the ledge and react to MK. If MK cancels, you have time to get into a ledge trap position. If he continues to glide back and forth then you can walk/dash forward and then back. By this, you can condition MK for a foot stool, but you're going to be fortunate if you can manage to force MK to grab the ledge unless you're a character like Marth who can foot stool>Dair him. Basically, while MK is gliding under the stage, all of his offensive options are relatively poor, while his defensive options are Meta Knight under the stage.

Shaya was suggesting a strategy of forcing MK to move above the ledge grab limit, which would ultimately force him into a forced "Remove all of the opponent's stocks or lose" scenario. Of course this would all be simpler by "If a game with Meta Knight goes to time, Meta Knight loses" rule, removing the character, etc.

 

[Coney]

yeah but that's all so very conditional

and trust me, if that rule about mk losing ever passed, i would literally pick wario and never fight. i would not put a single percent on MK and run away the entire game. the game gets diluted even further, to a point where you're not even fighting, but just trying to stretch three stocks across eight minutes.

 

[Exdeath]

yeah but that's all so very conditional

and trust me, if that rule about mk losing ever passed, i would literally pick wario and never fight. i would not put a single percent on MK and run away the entire game. the game gets diluted even further, to a point where you're not even fighting, but just trying to stretch three stocks across eight minutes.

Isn't Wario supposed to do that vs. MK anyway? It's not like MK lacks approach options or doesn't win anyway. I'm betting that you wouldn't even see half as many games/sets going to time.

 

[Ussi]

Yea but Wario still HAD TO FIGHT to keep a % lead

 

[Exdeath]

Yea but Wario still HAD TO FIGHT to keep a % lead

I believe that the point wasn't to "fight," but rather to hope that the Meta Knight messes up and essentially gives Wario the % lead.

 

[DMG]

Yes. However if MK is able to play defensively, Wario struggles to deal with it. Normal match: I run. He gets lead. I have to approach.

If I can run away, and regardless of whether I have the lead or not he has to approach to kill me, I WILL HAVE A FIELD DAY. This scenario: I run. He gets lead, I still run.

That's the difference. And Running on its own is easy if that's all you have to focus on. As if MK has 1 stock left 140% and all you have to do to win is keep running.

 

[Judo777]

I believe that the point wasn't to "fight," but rather to hope that the Meta Knight messes up and essentially gives Wario the % lead.

No because once he loses the lead he has to at some point damage MK. In this case he wouldn't. Idc I'm 100% down I'm still gonna run away and run that timer out.

And you said MK has poor offensive options while gliding. He has one pretty good option while gliding..... a hitbox that covers his entire body and clanks with everything that isn't a charged smash..................

And how do you ledge trap MK? MK cannot be trapped into anything he gets to sit and watch what you do for 5 jumps until he eventually gets to the ledge or uairs under the ledge then grabs it.

And have fun conditioning MK to do anything since even if he gets read once or twice and gets footstooled, no big deal, I'm MK. But woe is you if you miss the footstool........

 

[Exdeath]

No because once he loses the lead he has to at some point damage MK. In this case he wouldn't. Idc I'm 100% down I'm still gonna run away and run that timer out.

And you said MK has poor offensive options while gliding. He has one pretty good option while gliding..... a hitbox that covers his entire body and clanks with everything that isn't a charged smash..................

And how do you ledge trap MK? MK cannot be trapped into anything he gets to sit and watch what you do for 5 jumps until he eventually gets to the ledge or uairs under the ledge then grabs it.

And have fun conditioning MK to do anything since even if he gets read once or twice and gets footstooled, no big deal, I'm MK. But woe is you if you miss the footstool........

I said relatively poor offensive options, and glide attack isn't going to be hitting you unless you're coming after him; it's a defensive option in that case.

I said ledge trap not ledge guard. MK can definitely be ledge trapped.

Whiffing a foot stool = automatically double jumping anyway; you'll get hit by Uair, but any character with a good double jump should be above the stage (possibly with an air dodge) before Up-B is going to hit. Regardless, I do not think that it is a good idea, as I have said multiple times.

 

[Coney]

I believe that the point wasn't to "fight," but rather to hope that the Meta Knight messes up and essentially gives Wario the % lead.

maybe, but now you don't even have to worry about that. think about this as wario:

mk + you at 0% = run away + punish
mk > you in % = run away + punish
mk < you in % = hope he approaches so you can run away + punish

if mk doesn't approach, you'll eventually have to go to him, which is a very risky endeavor and could potentially have you eating even more percent.

if the percent doesn't matter though? you get to run away CONSTANTLY without ever even TRYING to hit him.

i mean, i would absolutely LOVE if this rule was implemented, though i'm pretty sure it would be pretty much as bad as banning MK anyway. you can stretch stocks reeeal far.

 

[vVv Rapture]

MK definitely doesn't have poor offensive options while gliding, especially if it's out of a generic glide and not shuttle loop.

Options:
-Glide attack
-Cancel glide, nair
-Cancel glide, glide again
-Cancel glide, shuttle loop, glide attack/fly away
-Cancel glide, do anything.

A smart MK is pretty safe on all accounts when gliding. If MK knows he can land the glide attack, he will. But if he can't, he can keep gliding to the ledge or cancel it, into which he can just do whatever he wants because he's still in the air.

EDIT: Also, anyone's thoughts on Game&Watch in the current scene right now? I mean, there aren't a ton of them to begin with, but either way, I'd like to hear opinions.

 

[Exdeath]

maybe, but now you don't even have to worry about that. think about this as wario:

mk + you at 0% = run away + punish
mk > you in % = run away + punish
mk < you in % = hope he approaches so you can run away + punish

if mk doesn't approach, you'll eventually have to go to him, which is a very risky endeavor and could potentially have you eating even more percent.

if the percent doesn't matter though? you get to run away CONSTANTLY without ever even TRYING to hit him.

i mean, i would absolutely LOVE if this rule was implemented, though i'm pretty sure it would be pretty much as bad as banning MK anyway. you can stretch stocks reeeal far.

I understood Ussi's point to be referring to neutral, not MK with a lead. TBH I think that a rule like that would shift a lot of MK's MUs toward even, prevent planking MK as the broken long-term strategy that it is now, improve match flow in terms of spectating, etc.

MK definitely doesn't have poor offensive options while gliding, especially if it's out of a generic glide and not shuttle loop.

Options:
-Glide attack
-Cancel glide, nair
-Cancel glide, glide again
-Cancel glide, shuttle loop, glide attack/fly away
-Cancel glide, do anything.

A smart MK is pretty safe on all accounts when gliding. If MK knows he can land the glide attack, he will. But if he can't, he can keep gliding to the ledge or cancel it, into which he can just do whatever he wants because he's still in the air.

Again, those are defensive options. Notice how none of those options actually beat someone just waiting on-stage.

 

[Coney]

it might make some matchups more even, but i'm pretty sure it would shift wario to unwinnable.

other characters that might do well with that rule are characters with very strong runaway games or characters who have a lot of weight

 

[vVv Rapture]

Again, those are defensive options. Notice how none of those options actually beat someone just waiting on-stage.

I wouldn't say all of those are absolutely defensive.

If MK chooses not to glide attack out of regular glide, he can easily cancel and continue approaching. It's all one motion at this point. Yeah, he can peel away and decide not to attack, but canceling glide now gives MK more offensive options because he's not gliding anymore. And then he can glide again and try for another glide attack if he wants. Or shuttle loop. Or anything.

MK can continue with a planned attack on an on-stage opponent just by either gliding or not gliding - if he continues gliding, he has glide attack; if he cancels, he can continue moving forward with shuttle loop, another glide into glide attack, tornado, drill rush, fair, nair, dair, etc.

 

[Exdeath]

I wouldn't say all of those are absolutely defensive.

If MK chooses not to glide attack out of regular glide, he can easily cancel and continue approaching. It's all one motion at this point. Yeah, he can peel away and decide not to attack, but canceling glide now gives MK more offensive options because he's not gliding anymore. And then he can glide again and try for another glide attack if he wants. Or shuttle loop. Or anything.

MK can continue with a planned attack on an on-stage opponent just by either gliding or not gliding - if he continues gliding, he has glide attack; if he cancels, he can continue moving forward with shuttle loop, another glide into glide attack, tornado, drill rush, fair, nair, dair, etc.

You're thinking of an approaching glide when you're talking about the offensive options. Take MK under SV and glide cancel>Up-B. It has MK Fsmash-level start-up. Likewise, look at Fsmash as a move. It's very rarely used a secondary cross-up option and almost always used defensively (e.g. the Tearbear state).

it might make some matchups more even, but i'm pretty sure it would shift wario to unwinnable.

other characters that might do well with that rule are characters with very strong runaway games or characters who have a lot of weight

I already said how I feel that it would change the Wario MU, but even if Wario did hard counter MK it wouldn't be a bad thing.

I don't see Jigglypuff surviving for 8 minutes against Meta Knight, and I also don't see Snake going to time against MK unless MK is being extremely passive (as you tend to see MKs play now because the match going to time is a good thing for MK right now).

 

[-LzR-]

I have never been able to really stall with Puff. She's not that good at it.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Now i see why top players never give their 2 cents on discussions...all people do is argue against them.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Now i see why top players never give their 2 cents on discussions...all people do is argue against them.

DMG is definitely not a top player, he's poopy /namesearch

So yeah, opinions on Game&Watch? Where's he at these days? Any chances of moving up or down...or developing something new with his game?

 

[Thebest1pj]

and x death you're saying we should hop offstage and try to footstool mk out of glide?

and tl is mid tier

fox wolf>tl

 

[Conviction]

and x death you're saying we should hop offstage and try to footstool mk out of glide?

and tl is mid tier

fox wolf>tl

***** you gay.

/discussion.

 

[Exdeath]

and x death you're saying we should hop offstage and try to footstool mk out of glide?

Regardless, I do not think that it is a good idea, as I have said multiple times.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...

JOHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNS

Smooth Criminal

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

G&W is a great character. one reason he is so good in my eyes is because all those people who have that advantage of at least one high priority move they can use to beat out other peoples moves (luigi: nair bair cyclone, pit: general moveset, kirby: bair etc.) can't rely on using that move to beat out any of G&W moves because like all of his moves beat that with even higher priority. i mean ya then there is the fact that he kills ridiculously early on all of his smashes on every character with weight only mattering for like an extra 10%-15% based on the stage at most. the only reason he isn't higher is because while he has great setups for his kill moves (dthrow, uair shenanigans, and his whole edgeguarding game), the fact that he doesn't really have an equivilent to foxes dair definately makes it hard to get those slower startup powerhouse moves in. hell i didn't even mention how good his bair and nair are, but i suppose i don't really have to either.

i mean ya he has some poor MUs in high tier but honestly i think some of his MUs in high tier-top tier may be a little under rated. like can someone explain to me why ICs of all top tier -2 when G&W's qualities seem more like the MU would be even to his favor (aerial character who is hard to grab and has moves that separate them and other moves that keep them separated)? also why he doesn't do so hot against olimar?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Now i see why top players never give their 2 cents on discussions...all people do is argue against them.

Just ignore them.

Edit: Well damn.

 

[Coney]

Now i see why top players never give their 2 cents on discussions...all people do is argue against them.

i'd rather have people argue and try to present their position than just say OKAY YOU'RE RIGHT TOP PLAYER YOU'RE THE BEST

 

[NO-IDea]

MK is beatable on stage. Hard? Certainly. But I would expect the absolute best character to be hard to beat. However... Tornado spam, defensive spacing, air camping with d-air: these are all tactics we (by this I refer to the highest level of players in today's competetive scene) train ourselves to overcome. So nothing short of mastery of MK, knowing the MU and smart play gives victory to MK assuming you set the same standards to yourself and your character. And even if both you and that MK has all 3, we go to ratios don't we? It's not as if MK is 100:0 when he has all 3 of those characteristics.

Banning MK on the condition that he has the best MU spread in the game is not competetive. Wanting to ban MK because your opponent chose the character to have an easier time is wrong. It's not as if this game was RPS and MK ensured victory. Nor is it improbable to beat MK on stage.

The issue lies with planking, scrooging and on a broader scale, stalling. It's one thing to run away on stage. At some point, the player gets cornered and essentially has to go through the opponent. But scrooging is no different than say temple or luigi's mansion. You get to run, or in this case fly circles around your opponent.

The easiest answer is to limit this. But I think of it as just banning stalling as a tactic, not limiting MK. It's why temple and luigi's mansion are banned for the most part. How hard would it be realistically to enforce a limit on scrooging? Do we really think players will lie when asked? That we can't implement a system to punish both offenders and liars? MLG did it.

I don't view a LGL as a method of limiting MK either, although it definitely does to an extent. We've seen Rich Brown v. Will. And UTDZac win a tourney. There are a good number of characters that can abuse a percent lead using the ledge. In the end, we dislike stalling, don't we? A LGL on all characters reinforces the win condition of smash: be the last man on stage. I would think being on the ledge isn't a good position to be in for any character, even MK, if the character is trying to get back on. But they should be forced into trying to get back anyway, because that should be the win condition. Not a percent lead.

The only reason why percent lead ever became a win condition in the first place is because we need to ensure matches end in a reasonable time, hence the timer. But let's not forget that with or without a timer, we do not encourage stalling as a community. Running away is fine so long as at some point, you have to go through the opponent, land onto the ground, etc. Scrooging and planking engage in neither of those aspects and should be restricted in the utmost manner. Not MK.

 

[san.]

What's the difference between chilling on the platform on SV and chilling on a ledge?

 

[Coney]

on one you're at a safe distance but technically vulnerable, in the other you're in an unsafe position but technically invulnerable

interesting!

both pretty much ensure you're not taking damage though

 

[ADHD]

Why would anyone try to footstool MK out of his glide lol. That's like being bowser and trying to side b someone in the bottom corner of the screen.. you're not gonna make it back.

 

[Tesh]

Pit can beat scrooging. If you play an MK on Smashville and you didn't choose Pit or Snake, you need to get better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What's the difference between chilling on the platform on SV and chilling on a ledge?

The only option you get from being on the ledge is stalling.

 

[san.]

Ike can beat scrooging by just aethering MK while MK is beneath the stage.