Official BBR Tier List v6

[Maharba the Mystic]

especially when diddy has bad stages whereas that MK guy...

 

[Spelt]

some guy from Colorado got 33rd and colorado suuuuuucks

I like how you'll admit to colorado sucking only when it fits your argument.

Except when I say it it's like I just attempted to murder the president.

Why am I not surprised.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Zex used Mk in nearly every single set I watched him play...I only saw his marth a few times

His results will most likely look like then waaaaaayyy down the line

 

[Steam]

I like how you'll admit to colorado sucking only when it fits your argument.

Except when I say it it's like I just attempted to murder the president.

Why am I not surprised.

when do I ever use Colorado sucking to support an argument? I always joke about it sure but everyone does. I've always thought people underrated us.

but seriously, get off my *** and come to events when they start happening next month so you can get bodied.

 

[DMG]

Zex used Mk in nearly every single set I watched him play...I only saw his marth a few times

His results will most likely look like then waaaaaayyy down the line

I only trust the words of HRNUT

 

[Delta-cod]

Brawl would be so balanced without MK, it's really awesome to think about it.

and Yoshi would of course rise because MK is one of his worse match-ups and I think the Lucario Match-up will be better once the Yoshis get better overall.

Yesssss. I think we can break through a lot of our less favorable MUs. I've been working on Lucario especially.

I've only seen MK voting ads on the boards

Well, whoever did that, it might not have been the best move... -. -;

In either case, I'm referring to an official, site-sponsored poll, not some unofficial poll that can only be advertised in sigs...

I caught the link to the petition in our regional thread, I believe, and put it up on the Yoshi boards for a couple of days to make sure they heard about it. At the time I thought that the more people that saw it, the better. Regardless, someone beat me to it and brought it there before me, and 90% of us lurk this forum (and this thread specifically), so we'd have found it anyways.

And nobody else bothers with the Yoshi boards but us.

 

[M@v]

Zex used Mk in nearly every single set I watched him play...I only saw his marth a few times

His results will most likely look like then waaaaaayyy down the line

The only match I watched him on the streamwas when he went Marth vs sk92 and did some serious work. I think he went mk game 3, but game 1 his Marth was damn impressive.

 

[Shaya]

he was doing well second match with marth too, but got really greedy.

 

[Tesh]

Yup, I'm not saying that Mike vs ADHD is even, I'm saying that Diddy vs Marth is even.

How can all of you continue to feel this way about matchups when the best Marth in the country repeatedly loses or does poorly at top level.

Every time Mikehaze goes even with or beats a top MK main, you guys will say this means marth has a decent matchup with MK and might even go even with him. But when Mikehaze loses to DK, Sonic, Diddy etc. its not proof that Marth loses these matchups?

Marth does probably go even with or beat a couple of top tier, but the same can be said almost any mid tier.

 

[Exdeath]

Agreed, it is even.


K


Diddy has one way to outrange Marth, which is fair. Which we massively outdisjoint. Move is still hella gay

We **** him on the ledge harder than every other character in the game... The only character who has ledge traps even in the same tier as Marth is MK and arguably sheik. But Marth definitely outdoes Sheik, and I believe has better ledge traps than MK. Although, nado is really good at covering a lot of options at once. Additionally, Marth has 2 glide toss lengths. The one everyone knows which is very long. The other one, is much shorter, and very similar to Diddy's GT length. Marth can use many of the same banana tricks as Diddy, and has better moves to use out of them. Additionally, just as Diddy has his sideB mix-ups w/ a banana in hand, Marth's ability to use DB while holding a banana is highly useful. Especially considering DB routinely beats (or at worst trades) w/ diddy's flip. Overall, I agree with this, except the addition of ledge ****. I will admit though, outside of tipper fsmash, Diddy does have a better punish game on stage. (Oh yeah, Diddy gets 0-deathed off a grab @ 0 )


Ehh, mostly agree.


Uhhh, no. Definitely not the case. Diddy's ledge traps are alright, but, nothing close to what Marth can do on the ledge.


I agree w/ the skewing. Although, your last sentence is ********, rofl. Ganon can fairly easily stutterstep fsmash MK's nado and diddy's side B (will trade iirc) if they both want to just spam them stupidly. Every character has an option to beat everything in the game if they just do it in a manner as ******** as MK just nadoing @ Ike when Ike can fsmash.

As Shaya said, Diddy has multiple options -- both aerial and grounded -- that out-range Marth, and all of them are fairly safe.

The reason that I think that Diddy's ledge traps are better are simply because Diddy can usually bring out bananas while Marth is recovering, while Marth ledge trapping with bananas is much less common. Bananas are just that good against RCO characters.

Also, my last point wasn't ******** at all. My point was that Diddys tend to play a lot riskier against lower tier characters, even though DDK has plenty of safe options against them -- with or without bananas.

Imo both characters have trouble getting back from the ledge against each other. Marth has bad options in general here, and Diddy gets completely outzoned by Marth.

Also, inherent disjoint is Marths greatest strength over Diddy. When you start playing Marth players that catch your bananas as they attack you shiz becomes really difficult to avoid being juggled. Also, once Marth gets Diddy in the air killing him is only a matter of percent, landing the attack isn't the hard part.

Marth's juggles are very powerful and key to why he can compete against the top tier characters, however I think that it is often the case that the distinction between safe legitimate kill option mix-ups (e.g. banana>stuff) and a having safe attack that leads to a safe legitimate kill option mix-up is often under-emphasized, with this being one of those cases.

How can all of you continue to feel this way about matchups when the best Marth in the country repeatedly loses or does poorly at top level.

You should really be careful about generalizing, however there is more than just looking at a top player of a character when looking at a match-up. One of the reasons for why it's a bad idea to use tournament results to decided a tier list is because their players are far more important than the characters.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that Ally went Wario for a lot of his pro bracket matches and he only really went MK for the ditto and against ADHD (which was still really close).He also took a game off M2K with his Snake. People need to get better instead of complaining about MK

 

[Juushichi]

Guys. Ally only went MK for the ditto and for one of the best Diddies in the world.

Get better noobs.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Guys. Ally only went MK for the ditto and for one of the best Diddies in the world.

Get better noobs.

You say this like Ally is no where near ADHD's level. He also took a game of of M2K's MK with Snake. A broken character shouldn't be losing to anyone besides himself.

 

[Conviction]

IDK, I mean we limit MK so much, he start losing eventually, right??

 

[Ussi]

broken doesn't mean impossible to beat, it just means improbable

 

[Tesh]

So the fact that he used MK on the most important and most difficult matches is proof of.....

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So the fact that he used MK on the most important and most difficult matches is proof of.....

I don't see how his match against Gnes was less important than his match against ADHD

TKD was right when he said that players who are trying to get better with a character other than MK lack an example of a player at high level. If you look for videos of Snake at high level play in the past month, how many are you really going to find?

 

[Conviction]

TKD was right when he said that players who are trying to get better with a character other than MK lack an example of a player at high level. If you look for videos of Snake at high level play in the past month, how many are you really going to find?

I agree with this part.

 

[B.A.M.]

Second.


Ive been saying this from the beginning; a ton of characters were shafted in the American metagame due to our MK invincibility complex. If people would just take a look and characters rising at what not, they would realize as higher skilled players begin to utilize certain characters, the characters do better. Which is a simple logical progress, in that sense. I dont understand why people cant see that? Its the same reason why Japanese MKs have only recently been improving, its the reason why Euro Marths were able to blossom. So many people in this game have immediately flocked to MK. There are so many brilliant players that would probably own with other characters but simply go the way of MK.

Hes definitely the best; it just sucks other characters have been stunted in that manner.

@Jebus that is your most intellectual post. Then again it started with 'TKD is right' so lol.

 

[san.]

I really just want to see what the game will be like if all of the stages that should be legal are legal.


Here's the thing. Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that MK is broken on Japes, Pirate Ship, Norfair, etc, and can't prove that the stage is broken all by itself, there's no use worrying about MK on those stages anyways.

Chances are, MK is probably really good on there anyways. I doubt it would be that much better on those controversial stages than any of the currently legal stages.

I think more stages would have a positive effect on many characters, and they would be able to test a wider array of skills.


A lot of those stages already inherently prevent many of MK's specifically limited qualities- planking and scrooging.

 

[M@v]

San I know ******** good ike is on pirate ship; if its legal I won't get duped into letting ikes take me there

 

[OverLade]

TKD was right when he said that players who are trying to get better with a character other than MK lack an example of a player at high level. If you look for videos of Snake at high level play in the past month, how many are you really going to find?

Coming from someone who has been watching youtube videos since the game came out and has literally learned every character I use through youtube videos, I COMPLETELY disagree.

There have ALWAYS been good examples of almost every character at high level. In the beginning they weren't necessarily even by players in North America but using "Oh I don't have enough good people to watch" is the most bull**** john I've ever heard.

There are TONS of good Snake videos out in the last couple months. Calzorz, Japanese Snakes, tons of Razer videos. No ****ing johns...

 

[san.]

He's good there, but he's probably just as good/better on other stages.

People thought Ike was great on Brinstar, but he's merely good there, too.

 

[DMG]

There are also older videos that are somewhat or still relevant to today's metagame. Me timing out Razer on Brinstar is old, but not outdated or "incorrect" per se match. The basic principles and strengths behind that strategy still hold up today, even if how you specifically do it nowadays has more finesse and gameplay. You can still learn that kind of stuff from older videos, and there are plenty of those floating around.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Coming from someone who has been watching youtube videos since the game came out and has literally learned every character I use through youtube videos, I COMPLETELY disagree.

There have ALWAYS been good examples of almost every character at high level. In the beginning they weren't necessarily even by players in North America but using "Oh I don't have enough good people to watch" is the most bull**** john I've ever heard.

There are TONS of good Snake videos out in the last couple months. Calzorz, Japanese Snakes, tons of Razer videos. No ****ing johns...

http://www.youtube.com/results?suggested_categories=20&search_query=ssbb+calzorz,+this+month

http://www.youtube.com/results?suggested_categories=20&search_query=ssbb+shu,+this+month

http://www.youtube.com/results?suggested_categories=20,22&search_query=ssbb+razor,+this+month

even less pops out when you put snake next to their name

MK on the other hand

http://www.youtube.com/results?suggested_categories=22,20&search_query=ssbb+mew2king,+this+month

 

[Seagull Joe]

@san: Whenever Norfair has been legal it has been a primarily Mk stage. I've never seen someone beat a good Mk on Norfair. Pirate ship, PTAD, and Green greens I haven't seen enough use in tournament to have a judgement about whether they are Mk OP'd or not.

 

[Exdeath]

I really just want to see what the game will be like if all of the stages that should be legal are legal.


Here's the thing. Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that MK is broken on Japes, Pirate Ship, Norfair, etc, and can't prove that the stage is broken all by itself, there's no use worrying about MK on those stages anyways.

Chances are, MK is probably really good on there anyways. I doubt it would be that much better on those controversial stages than any of the currently legal stages.

I think more stages would have a positive effect on many characters, and they would be able to test a wider array of skills.


A lot of those stages already inherently prevent many of MK's specifically limited qualities- planking and scrooging.

I don't understand what your point is.

http://www.youtube.com/results?suggested_categories=20&search_query=ssbb+shu,+this+month

You can't just type in Shu for Shu's videos. You often have to dig through Japanese language, or in some cases there are unlabled videos.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/user/FloridaMeister There are several sets of Shu in there, but most of the videos are unlabled.

Most of the really good Japanese sets require actual effort to find.

 

[Conviction]

I'm subscribed to Yui's channel.

 

[TheMarioFinale1.0]

Are you kidding me? That is the opposite of what I think!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't understand what your point is.



You can't just type in Shu for Shu's videos. You often have to dig through Japanese language, or in some cases there are unlabled videos.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/user/FloridaMeister There are several sets of Shu in there, but most of the videos are unlabled.

Most of the really good Japanese sets require actual effort to find.

The point I was trying to make is that it is a hell of a lot easier to find videos of top level MKs than it is for any other character.

 

[Exdeath]

The point I was trying to make is that it is a hell of a lot easier to find videos of top level MKs than it is for any other character.

There's a difference between "It's easier to find examples of high level MK" and "there are few examples of high level Snake." The evidence could be used to make a case for MK growing quickly, however it does not work as evidence to other characters growing slowly.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

The only match I watched him on the streamwas when he went Marth vs sk92 and did some serious work. I think he went mk game 3, but game 1 his Marth was damn impressive.

Did you pay attention to the fact that SK sd his first match and still made it very close. Second game SK beat his marth on a neutral (no SDs happened I recalled) then instead of staying Marth to finish the set off like a marth main...he took falco to RC then switched leading to his win. Now if he didn't have that MK choice who knows what the outcome of that match would have been?

@Savemejebus

How many Mks did ally have to fight? How many of those went for a time out?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There's a difference between "It's easier to find examples of high level MK" and "there are few examples of high level Snake." The evidence could be used to make a case for MK growing quickly, however it does not work as evidence to other characters growing slowly.

Not really. How is the fact that TKD is a top level Fox going to help other players improve if there aren't any recent videos of him playing (just an example. there might be some recent videos out there of his fox)?

@ HRNUT, SK92 mains Falco. Falco is bad on Rainbow Cruise. MK is good on Rainbow Cruise so that was a good stage choice by Zex. If SK92 mained G&W instead, do you think Zex would have still taken him to RC?
I also don't know how many MKs he had to fight and how many of those matches went to time out.

 

[Yikarur]

people need to improve themselves by themselves

 

[Exdeath]

Now if he didn't have that MK choice who knows what the outcome of that match would have been?

Marth vs. Falco on RC?

Not really. How is the fact that TKD is a top level Fox going to help other players improve if there aren't any recent videos of him playing (just an example. there might be some recent videos out there of his fox)?

There may not be many TKD videos, but there are many videos of Yui, who is arguably better than TKD.

 

[Tesh]

The reason you are finding more videos of high level MKs is because its easier to become "high level" with MK. The same amount of skill wouldn't get them nearly as far with other characters.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

I said outcome...not matchup they would play...read bro...

Because (marth is not equal to mk on that level)...I personally believe marth has way better levels to fight falco on than RC

 

[Gnes]

For the record
Ally went mk against me in Losers Semis last 2 games. He beat me 3-2.
He beat wyatt in LFS 3-2 i believe also.

I'm not saying he couldn't beat us with other chrs.(snake for wyatt, wario for me), but he choose mk. Think about that for yourself.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Gnes with dat truth

 

[Exdeath]

The reason you are finding more videos of high level MKs is because its easier to become "high level" with MK. The same amount of skill wouldn't get them nearly as far with other characters.

It's not easier to become high level with MK. It's easier to play at high level with MK. There's a big difference.