Official BBR Tier List v6

[ADHD]

Ike can beat scrooging by just aethering MK while MK is beneath the stage.

Like, so can ivysaur by going beneath the stage and up b'ing him.

 

[Coney]

ddd can beat scrooging by just Super Dedede Jump'ing MK while MK is beneath the stage

EE-YOHP

 

[NO-IDea]

What's the difference between chilling on the platform on SV and chilling on a ledge?

You don't have invulnerability frames every time you touch it.

If you were trying to make a point about using sv platform as a method of stalling, it's reasonable to punish a character's landing lag. It would be no different than wario air camping on bf using the top platform.

Going under the stage though to get to that position? Only to not even camp on it but rather go back under stage again? Stalling IMO.

Why is it so unreasonable to just limit scrooging and planking?

 

[vVv Rapture]

G&W is a great character. one reason he is so good in my eyes is because all those people who have that advantage of at least one high priority move they can use to beat out other peoples moves (luigi: nair bair cyclone, pit: general moveset, kirby: bair etc.) can't rely on using that move to beat out any of G&W moves because like all of his moves beat that with even higher priority. i mean ya then there is the fact that he kills ridiculously early on all of his smashes on every character with weight only mattering for like an extra 10%-15% based on the stage at most. the only reason he isn't higher is because while he has great setups for his kill moves (dthrow, uair shenanigans, and his whole edgeguarding game), the fact that he doesn't really have an equivilent to foxes dair definately makes it hard to get those slower startup powerhouse moves in. hell i didn't even mention how good his bair and nair are, but i suppose i don't really have to either.

i mean ya he has some poor MUs in high tier but honestly i think some of his MUs in high tier-top tier may be a little under rated. like can someone explain to me why ICs of all top tier -2 when G&W's qualities seem more like the MU would be even to his favor (aerial character who is hard to grab and has moves that separate them and other moves that keep them separated)? also why he doesn't do so hot against olimar?

I think ICs are bad for him because he has lag on his aerials, so if he goes for a bair or fair, even if he does land it, he can potentially get grabbed once he hits the ground. Not to mention that his best kill options are primarily ground-based, which is clearly where he doesn't want to be. Then again, if he gets to play ICs on stages like BF or Lylat where he can camp on, around and under platforms, I think he'd be better off. I'm sure Vinnie knows more about that match-up considering we have Cheese in the area (assuming they've played tourny, of course; I think they have).

I'm also wondering how the Snake vs G&W MU looks these days.

 

[Seagull Joe]

can beat scrooging by up b'ing straight into him under the stage to cause a stage spike, which'll still kill both of us. Though I could go under stage and up b back on sv to get to the ledge...I've never tried it cause it's so risky~!

 

[Coney]

I think ICs are bad for him because he has lag on his aerials, so if he goes for a bair or fair, even if he does land it, he can potentially get grabbed once he hits the ground. Not to mention that his best kill options are primarily ground-based, which is clearly where he doesn't want to be. Then again, if he gets to play ICs on stages like BF or Lylat where he can camp on, around and under platforms, I think he'd be better off. I'm sure Vinnie knows more about that match-up considering we have Cheese in the area (assuming they've played tourny, of course; I think they have).

I'm also wondering how the Snake vs G&W MU looks these days.

also the easiness of the chaingrab

in a metagame where even the best ICs drop chaingrabs often, being the easiest character to CG in the game is a huge disadvantage

people say "one grab = death" a lot but it's not really true, but it is ABSOLUTELY true if you use

maybe, since everyone practices that one first

 

[Seagull Joe]

is the easiest character to cg? Why?

 

[Coney]

i don't know, it's just what i've heard! have you ever tried it though? piss-easy. must be the big nose.

also this thread is POPPIN RIGHT NOW YO WHAT UP EVERYONE VIEWING

 

[Seagull Joe]

I shall try it right now. I suck at cg though. I can only do Dthrow>Fair, desync blizzard wall, desync ice blocks, and Dthrow cg. I suck at Bthrow/Dthrow cg.

 

[san.]

Like, so can ivysaur by going beneath the stage and up b'ing him.

Hitbox as large as glide attack and super armor. All MK do is stop his glide and get away.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

@ the MK scrooging thing. it's only a problem when MK does it because he doesn't rely on it as a recovery method, he uses it to stall and can't be challenged in the air. if you limit my scrooging however as a pit player, you've doomed me to no reliable recovery option since i can actually be challenged in the air. seriously, don't limit those who don't need it, i can handle having a lgl, but if you restrict my greatest asset to getting on stage safely as pit then im done with this game. seriously noid, it's not broken with anyone but MK so only MK should get the limitation or no1 should because scrooging is the heart and soul of getting back onto the stage to do that last man standing stuff you were saying as pit.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Oh ****. is so easy to Fthrow cg LOL! You were right Zak.

 

[Tesh]

No one is going to limit Pit or Charizard scrooging, or ROB or Puff, Maharba. Those characters don't really have the oppressive air game to beat everyone offstage anyway.

 

[NO-IDea]

Woulf you really need to go under the stage more than 3 times a match? Can you even find a replay of yourself on yt right now wher you did it? I don't think so.

The limit shouldn't adversely affect you at all... Unless you were aiming to just go from ledge to ledge repeatedly... Aka stall?

 

[Thebest1pj]

I was asking a question you stupid ****.

and that didn't answer it.

 

[san.]

If it only affects one character, why put it there for others?

Some characters have poor options from getting up from the ledge.


DK may be good at keeping some people from hurting him when he's using his upB and ledge invincibility, but he has so few safe getup options at and above 100%, he's pressured to stay at the ledge sometimes.

If I was a DK stuck on the ledge >=100, I would not want to face a nanner wall+peanut spam, grenade/c4/mine setups all over the stage, aerial pressure, etc.

 

[Thebest1pj]

o and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opkgf7SLB5A

this is what happens when you use g&w against ics

 

[vVv Rapture]

Yeah, forgot about that. Game&Watch gets ****ed up by ICs chaingrab. And because of the nature of his attacks, he really isn't like *the best* at avoiding grabs.

Though I'm still under the impression that stages like Lylat or namely BF would help him out.

Regardless, G&W really just has to look out for MK, Snake, and those other few high tier MUs that aren't particularly good for him. I really would like to see a good Snake vs G&W match to look at that matchup, I'm interested to see how that is played out (can't think of any instances at the moment).

 

[Thebest1pj]

>

 

[NO-IDea]

If it only affects one character, why put it there for others?

Some characters have poor options from getting up from the ledge.


DK may be good at keeping some people from hurting him when he's using his upB and ledge invincibility, but he has so few safe getup options at and above 100%, he's pressured to stay at the ledge sometimes.

If I was a DK stuck on the ledge >=100, I would not want to face a nanner wall+peanut spam, grenade/c4/mine setups all over the stage, aerial pressure, etc.

The DK was in an unfavorable position for the majority of the match and you don't think the other player deserves the victory if it goes to time?

Again, the win condition of smash is last man on stage. We implement a timer because we can't feasibly run a tournament if matches take too long. And if timer runs out, we have to determine a victor. In boxing, they go by points. If there's a tie, they typically do another few rounds.

We somewhat resemble that. But we also need to consider who had better control of the match, since even percentages can be subjectiver due to different characters and their respective damage output and weights.

Which is why we should go back to the primary win condition. There should be a breaking point where if you've been able to control your opponent's positioning so that he's fighting to get back on stage for the majority of the match, you should be the victor if it goes to time.

The point is, the ledge is never a good position to be in if the win condition is to be on stage. We need our rules to reflect that win condition. Since we cannot remove the timer, a lgl suffices.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

yes noid, sometimes against peach, mk, and wario it can take as many as 3 times in a row to get back on stage safely with pit, sometimes more based on the stage/situation.

edit:
im not against a lgl in general, im against your terrible scrooging ban idea on non mks.

and yes, more than 3 times in a stock can be required to get onstage with pit. but you play luckay, so you should already know this

 

[Chuee]

Scrooging ban is needed tho

 

[SFA Smiley]

Yeah, forgot about that. Game&Watch gets ****ed up by ICs chaingrab. And because of the nature of his attacks, he really isn't like *the best* at avoiding grabs.

Though I'm still under the impression that stages like Lylat or namely BF would help him out.

Regardless, G&W really just has to look out for MK, Snake, and those other few high tier MUs that aren't particularly good for him. I really would like to see a good Snake vs G&W match to look at that matchup, I'm interested to see how that is played out (can't think of any instances at the moment).

Marth is worse than MK =(

And snake vs gdubs involves gw getting ***** on the ground and snake getting ***** in the air. Its actually really close except that snake punishes count a lot more. Thats where the advantage come from.

 

[Seagull Joe]

>

and x death you're saying we should hop offstage and try to footstool mk out of glide?

And tl is mid tier

>

O.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

only on MK tho

edit:

aside from tesh's metagay joke with pit on frigate, pit doesn't scrooge to stall. he scrooges to get to the safer ledge so he can get back on stage

 

[vVv Rapture]

Marth is worse than MK =(

And snake vs gdubs involves gw getting ***** on the ground and snake getting ***** in the air. Its actually really close except that snake punishes count a lot more. Thats where the advantage come from.

Yeah Marth does suck.

Ah, I see. Well, yeah that makes sense, now that I think about it. Thanks.

 

[NO-IDea]

3 times in a row? I think you need to work on your recovery as a player. It's not as if it improved your position to go from one ledge to the other. And luckay has never done it 3 times in a row. And maybe once over 3 times.

If it was just to test their patience, you could have done that while staying on one side of the stage. Sure, it will increase your ledge grabs but as long it doesn't go to time, what do you care?

And on that note, what if you go over the lgl and the other player doesn't and aims for a time out? I would argue the other player was better for forcing you into that position for so long into the match.

An lgl on all characters enforces what should already be practiced: play to stay on stage.

 

[Thebest1pj]

O.

ok but

So you agree with me?

brb mid tier tourneys cuz tier list is wrong

 

[san.]

The DK was in an unfavorable position for the majority of the match and you don't think the other player deserves the victory if it goes to time?

If the DK has no options to get onstage without getting *****, why go onstage to get *****? Even so, sometimes he may need to grab the ledge 5-6+ times before even being able to get back. If that happens a few times, that's already a lot of ledge grabs.

Again, the win condition of smash is last man on stage.

Can you direct me where "on stage" came from? I don't recall those two words.

We implement a timer because we can't feasibly run a tournament if matches take too long. And if timer runs out, we have to determine a victor. In boxing, they go by points. If there's a tie, they typically do another few rounds.

Yep. I do believe % is somewhat flawed, but it's the best we have, a necessary evil.

We somewhat resemble that. But we also need to consider who had better control of the match, since even percentages can be subjectiver due to different characters and their respective damage output and weights.

I agree, but it depends on our interpretation of "control."

Which is why we should go back to the primary win condition. There should be a breaking point where if you've been able to control your opponent's positioning so that he's fighting to get back on stage for the majority of the match, you should be the victor if it goes to time.

Where did the whole onstage thing come from?
Against Ice climbers, a lot of characters' metagames revolves around camping the platforms while the ICs usually keep center stage.

Heck, some characters rely heavily on that kind of gameplay, such as Toon Link.

DK on the ledge is safer than DK getting hit by the opponent's traps when he gets back on.

DK, and almost everyone else's ledgeplay are also not that difficult to hit. It just evens out the risk/reward for both players instead of highly in the opponent's favor.

Offstage is an essential part of gameplay, just like onstage and high in the air. If you suck at playing offstage, there shouldn't be rules to help you walk around this.


I asked about the ledge and platforms, because some characters' platform camping are also pretty strong. They are definitely reachable, and there are ways to beat it out.

You're not fully invincible at the ledge. Most characters can't even throw out an aerial without losing invincibility halfway through.

Taking the ledge away also prevents this, and it may cost the opponent or give them a free way to get back to the stage.

The point is, the ledge is never a good position to be in if the win condition is to be on stage. We need our rules to reflect that win condition. Since we cannot remove the timer, a lgl suffices.

I never heard of this win condition. You win if you're on stage? What the heck?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i think you need to play ultimate razer and gnes before you tell me i shouldn't go under to the side of the stage that doesn't have a c4 2 nades utilt or 2 bananas and a peanut gun waiting on it. pit can move faster with WOI than most character's can run so switching sides until i can get the safer get up is perfectly reasonable. and it's not like i can't just start a glide one way and then WOI back to the same ledge in order to get up. seriously, use pit against razer and gnes and see how many times you switch sides until you feel you've gotten to a safe position. you have no clue what you would do otherwise

edit:

i ain't testing their patience, they are testing mine. you're clueless on the pit metagame sir

 

[Seagull Joe]

ok but

So you agree with me?

brb mid tier tourneys cuz tier list is wrong

's win every mid tier tourney. was never a threat in Mid tiers to begin with.

I think < in their matchup, but is a better character overall. Only difference is suffers a horrid matchup with , but otherwise, his matches aren't too bad. has 3 bad matchups. should be above and on the tier list for lack of death matchups like is to and is to . Dunno if he deserves to be high tier, but results are consistent with that trait as far as his current position shows.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Here's the thing. Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that MK is broken on Japes, Pirate Ship, Norfair, etc, and can't prove that the stage is broken all by itself, there's no use worrying about MK on those stages anyways.

Can you give an example of how that could be proven?

It seems to me youre simply setting the bar of what passes of as evidence so high it can't be reached. We know in theory MK wins. We know from statistics he wins. The question is whether we ''think'' he wins so hard and so much that it just makes the game worse than without him.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Obviously we need to take off the percentage make it invisible...easy solution

 

[BSP]

MK has RC and Brinstar.

He doesn't need anything else

 

[DMG]

Woulf you really need to go under the stage more than 3 times a match? Can you even find a replay of yourself on yt right now wher you did it? I don't think so.

The limit shouldn't adversely affect you at all... Unless you were aiming to just go from ledge to ledge repeatedly... Aka stall?

We don't punish people for trying to stall. We punish people for excessively trying to stall.

The question though then becomes, well what's excessive? 35 edge grabs? 30? 15? 50?

Also, if you truly want people to play onstage, get rid of a LGL and implement an air time limit. That way Wario can't run from people and has to fight.

ok but

So you agree with me?

brb mid tier tourneys cuz tier list is wrong

 

[vVv Rapture]

obviously we need to take off the percentage make it invisible...easy solution

this man is genius

 

[Tesh]

I agree with Noid about what the objective is "supposed to be", but I don't think its fair to place global rules on all character because of MK. If I am playing Ganondorf, or Mario or some other RCO character, its not the same as grabbing the ledge with MK. If we were to limit each character, it would need to be fair and the limits need to be set high for characters with weak weak stalling games. If you give MK 20 ledge grabs, Ganondorf should be allowed 100+.

Or you know, we could just play 1 stock with food on, then anyone planking is just stupid.

 

[san.]

Can you give an example of how that could be proven?

It seems to me youre simply setting the bar of what passes of as evidence so high it can't be reached. We know in theory MK wins. We know from statistics he wins. The question is whether we ''think'' he wins so hard and so much that it just makes the game worse than without him.

Easy infinites, CGs (USUALLY permanent walls, but I'm somewhat skeptical of this), or timeout material (ex. circle camping).

Basically, anything that suggests MK is better on those other stages than our current stages (bar RC and Brinstar I guess, because a lot of people have it banned) by a good amount.

Usually, it's a group of characters or something that seemed like an overcentralizing tactic that got it banned.

Japes- DK and Falco, run away and camp games. A mixture of all that plus the klaptrap and water shenanigans. I have played DKs, Falcos, and at times Sonics and Lucarios on here, and have been camped here by Xyro's Samus, so I have a pretty strong opinion on how powerful these camping tactics really are.

Not MK

Pirate Ship- Water Shenanigans and rudder camping shock brought this down. Also some of the stage hazards.
Rudder camping, you get offstage %, have a chance to die, and 2/3 transformations forces you to move or die.

Being in the water is also very laggy. There is a SET jump height when you jump in the water, that decreases each time. Characters are too floaty, so they'll usually be in the air a while if they want to get in the water again. The only thing they can really do is drift forward and away from the opponent but you get quite a bit of lag from jumping back in the water until after a while.

Stage hazards also prevent water camping, and are only temporary. The bombs are powerful if and only if you're near the center hitbox. There is a radius hitbox that gives a good amount of percent, but doesn't even kill you at 120-140.

Norfair-
The original MK problem stage BEFORE LGL. I think LGL actually fixes a lot of the problems MK will have abusing shuttle loop and running away. MK is slow in the air unless he's using a B move.
I believe stage hazards decrease camping opportunities. I think only the flares (and maybe lava from below) from the background really help camping at all. The lava wall and lava floor both decrease the amount of room to fight the opponent, forcing confrontation. The lava wave forces you to commit to a vulnerable action to avoid getting hit for a lot of knockback.

GGs I'll hold back on for now since I am unsure about how much camping you can do. I WILL say that every character is capable of hitting a bomb block without getting hit if spaced correctly.

Really, the burden of proof at the moment is on people who want them to be legalized. That doesn't mean that others should just ignore these arguments, also.

I threw MK in there because I believe that the stages were primarily banned for other reasons (except Norfair I suppose)

EDIT: I don't think MK is that much better on these stages than what we already have.

In addition, I think the qualities of these stages by themselves are reason enough to warrant them being legal.

 

[Tesh]

I don't agree with San at all, but at this point I am inclined to believe him. He is pretty good.

 

[san.]

You don't have to believe if you don't agree.