Official BBR Tier List v6

[Ussi]

Pikachu beats falco but is lower than him

 

[Doc King]

Well, I can probably agree with Lucas being higher than them. I just think it should be low tier because they aren't really viable at all (Except very rare occasions).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

and should be in the same tier near each other.

Fox has better match ups than Wolf and even though Wolf is supposed to do well against MK, results don't really show it

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I think the entire f tier should just be put into low tier. I mean every dam list 1 low tier character comes out of the low tier because -insert person doing well-. Sooner or later the only characters in low tier will be ****ing Zelda, Ganon, Jiggs, Link and Falcon like wtf.

 

[da K.I.D.]

From what I remember, Lucas, Luigi, Ness, and PT (Excluding Reflex) haven't made it to bracket at Apex.

There are some ppl who do good with low tiers, but the characters aren't good themselves like Mango's Mario (Scorpion Master). I mean if ur losing badly to Donkey Kong, then you shouldn't be considered in his tier. I mean do you really think that Pit and Rob are about the same as Lucas, Ness, Luigi, and PT? Seriously, mid tier is way too big.

I try to reason with you but you are beyond logic, and beyond salvation. I was going to pick this post apart and try to make you understand but Ive had enough of this.

I wish you came here as a sonic main, because this mindset of yours would have been squashed REAL quick.

From now on, I blame every single one of your ******** ignorant posts on Tech Chase because he was too much of a ***** to tell you to shut the hell up when he needed to. And since he wants to be all lovey dovey and crap on the DDD boards, he doesnt deal with your nonsense the way it should have been handled from jump street, with contempt and disdain.

Well, I can probably agree with Lucas being higher than them. I just think it should be low tier because they aren't really viable at all (Except very rare occasions).

This post contradicts itself.

I think the entire f tier should just be put into low tier. I mean every dam list 1 low tier character comes out of the low tier because -insert person doing well-. Sooner or later the only characters in low tier will be ****ing Zelda, Ganon, Jiggs, Link and Falcon like wtf.

If those turn out to be the only bad characters in the game then they are the only bad characters in the game.

If you created a fighting game where one character was super turbo akuma tier, and one character was mvc2 roll tier, and there was 50 other characters that were all just as good as each other, you would tier those characters accordingly. There is no rule that exactly X percent of character in a game have to be high tier and X % of character have to be low tier.

I personally believe that pretty much 2/3rds of Umvc3 is mid tier, and the last third is either high tier or low. if thats how the game plays out, than yea, you have a tier that might be bigger than the others, but thats not inherently a bad thing. On the contrary, its actually a very good thing in most cases because that means that the game is decently balanced

and to anyone else (moron Doc) that says that a game is imbalanced because there are some polarising matchups. The most balanced current fighter thats been out for more than a month is Blazblue and that game has Tager vs Nu, which is basically a 10-0 matchup. But just because that one matchup is stupid, doesnt take away from the fact that the vast majority of matchups in the game are typically close to even.

 

[Doc King]

I think the entire f tier should just be put into low tier. I mean every dam list 1 low tier character comes out of the low tier because -insert person doing well-. Sooner or later the only characters in low tier will be ****ing Zelda, Ganon, Jiggs, Link and Falcon like wtf.

I know right? tbh those characters you mentioned at the end are bottom tier.

I mean Lucas has some options, but he gets hard countered way too much to be considered middle tier. Luigi has like the worst approaching ever and can't reach anything for crap. Ness gets grab release infinited by Marth, DK, Charizard, and Dedede. PT's physics are just horrible for this game, you have to be forced to use certain characters and can't change properly and the characters are pretty lame.

I mean low tiers have some good options, but they have a lot of weaknesses and bad points to them. Characters like Zelda and Falcon have extremely limited options and extremely limited strengths.

It seems like the low tier mains think that everyone will improve and things will be all completely balanced and low tiers will improve. I really don't think so because they won't be able to compete against like Olimar, Snake, Diddy, Climbers, Marth, and Falco. Some of them can't even fight like high tiers like Dedede or even mid tiers like DK.

Just get over it low tier mains, ur character is crap. I'm not saying they will never ever win a tourney, but they will rarely any chances in placing well.

 

[Deleted member]

No doc king, nobody thinks that. And what you are saying is stupid.
and guess what. You will never place in a tourney. Why are you even talking about tourneys, you dont play them. You dont understand this game.
You base your opinions off what bad randoms you play on wifi tell you :/

losing to a mid tier has nothing to do with where you should be on a tier list.

 

[Doc King]

I try to reason with you but you are beyond logic, and beyond salvation. I was going to pick this post apart and try to make you understand but Ive had enough of this.

I wish you came here as a sonic main, because this mindset of yours would have been squashed REAL quick.

From now on, I blame every single one of your ******** ignorant posts on Tech Chase because he was too much of a ***** to tell you to shut the hell up when he needed to. And since he wants to be all lovey dovey and crap on the DDD boards, he doesnt deal with your nonsense the way it should have been handled from jump street, with contempt and disdain.

This post contradicts itself.


If those turn out to be the only bad characters in the game then they are the only bad characters in the game.

If you created a fighting game where one character was super turbo akuma tier, and one character was mvc2 roll tier, and there was 50 other characters that were all just as good as each other, you would tier those characters accordingly. There is no rule that exactly X percent of character in a game have to be high tier and X % of character have to be low tier.

I personally believe that pretty much 2/3rds of Umvc3 is mid tier, and the last third is either high tier or low. if thats how the game plays out, than yea, you have a tier that might be bigger than the others, but thats not inherently a bad thing. On the contrary, its actually a very good thing in most cases because that means that the game is decently balanced

and to anyone else (moron Doc) that says that a game is imbalanced because there are some polarising matchups. The most balanced current fighter thats been out for more than a month is Blazblue and that game has Tager vs Nu, which is basically a 10-0 matchup. But just because that one matchup is stupid, doesnt take away from the fact that the vast majority of matchups in the game are typically close to even.

Well, Tech chase doesn't want to provoke ppl that are new on the d3 boards and/or look bad on the D3 boards. You also need to calm down man. I'm not raging on anything I'm just debating and talking about my opinions.

Like I said, Low tiers have some good qualities, but they have very notable weaknesses like Ness and Lucas grab release and recovery (Ness mostly), Luigi approaching and getting in on opponents, and PT having poor recoveries and not able to adapt to them well and air release and charizard getting comboed.

They are pretty bad characters. If they lose to mid tiers (Badly) like Donkey Kong and Sheik, then you should definitely be a low tier. They are not in the same spot as characters like Pit and Rob should be.

Brawl is not a balanced game. MK was one big reason why this game has very poor balance. I would laugh if someone like Olimar or the Ice Climbers got banned. This game basically has 8 viable characters our of 38 characters. It could even be like 4 out of 38, but 8 out of 38 sounds like it.

Also, like I said, low tiers sometimes win tourneys.

 

[Fuujin]

 

[da K.I.D.]

They are pretty bad characters. If they lose to mid tiers (Badly) like Donkey Kong and Sheik, then you should definitely be a low tier. They are not in the same spot as characters like Pit and Rob should

You heard it here first guys.

Fox is Low tier.

 

[zmx]

Most viable characters without a secondary considering the current ruleset imo:

MK, Marth, Wario, Diddy, Lucario, Olimar

I am not sure about Wario as he does get hard countered by DDD. However the fact that he has no bad stages helps him a lot.

Interested to here what other people think.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You heard it here first guys.

Fox is Low tier.

He is kinda garbs compared to DDD .

Got dat Buuman Trap yo.

(Good Lord that hurt to even say jokingly.)

Smooth Criminal

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox has better match ups than Wolf and even though Wolf is supposed to do well against MK, results don't really show it

Results kind of show it.

 

[Doc King]

You heard it here first guys.

Fox is Low tier.

The thing with Fox though is that he can do well against Dedede and Lucario. Lucas doesn't have **** and his bad matchups are so much bigger and more painful than Fox. Fox can do alright vs. someone like Falco or Snake. Lucas gets his *** whooped.

Most viable characters without a secondary considering the current ruleset imo:

MK, Marth, Wario, Diddy, Lucario, Olimar

I am not sure about Wario as he does get hard countered by DDD. However the fact that he has no bad stages helps him a lot.

Interested to here what other people think.

Wouldn't the climbers be one of them along with Pikachu and Snake and Falco?

Wario actually has a lot of bad stages because of DDD's slope chaingrab on Wario which makes stages like Halberd and Frigate really bad for him. He can also do this on the edge of Ps1 special stages and Halberd 2nd stage edge. You can either walk off chaingrab or dash forward and back of a dash dance and pivot grab him.

Wario is good on Smashville, but it's autoban. DDD can actually do good on BF because you can control where your finisher is so the platforms don't interrupt it.

 

[zmx]

Ice Climbers and falco get hard countered via stages. So no.

Pikachu loses pretty badly to Olimar.

Snake again is not the most versatile stage-wise (looks at RC and brinstar) and he either goes even with or loses to most top tiers. He has far more exploitable weaknesses imo than the others on my list.

 

[Doc King]

Man, there really isn't too much viability in this game even with mk gone.

 

[C.J.]

Ice Climbers and falco get hard countered via stages. So no.

Pikachu loses pretty badly to Olimar.

Snake again is not the most versatile stage-wise (looks at RC and brinstar) and he either goes even with or loses to most top tiers. He has far more exploitable weaknesses imo than the others on my list.

IC/Falco still have an amazing stage for them game 1, so even if they get CP gayed game 2, they have 2 games out of three where they're guaranteed to have a really good stage to play on. That seems viable to me.

Pika probably loses worse to IC than Olimar, but both MUs are definitely winnable- still seems viable.

Snake is actually pretty amazing on RC... Brinstar he's bad on. So, he bans that. Okay, now he has a bad stage vs... Marth in battlefield? That's about it. Looking at his MUs vs the top tiers:
Diddy- even/slight Snake advantage
Snake- 55:45 4th port
Falco- even/Snake wins
Marth- Even/incredibly small Marth advantage.
Wario- wins
IC- even/snake wins
Olimar- I've heard everything from slight Olimar advantage from American players to that Japan thinks that Snake wins.
Pika- yeah, he loses this one.
DDD (not top tier, but, whatever)- Low/mid/high level Snake probably loses. Top level, Snake wins.

Still seems viable to me.

 

[zmx]

It really depends on how you define it.

A LOT of characters are viable, they are just not 100% solo viable. That doesn't mean they don't help you win. I personally don't find too much wrong with that. All it means is players are encouraged to use more than just one character which adds variability. Isn't this one of the major reasons MK was banned in the first place?

For instance, I once saw Vinnie counter icys with Peach. It won him the tournament. So of course she can be useful even in the highest levels of play.

 

[C.J.]

I'm aware, and I'm saying that Pika/Snake/IC are all definitely solo viable. Falco may not be with regard to his IC/Pika MU though.

 

[zmx]

IC/Falco still have an amazing stage for them game 1, so even if they get CP gayed game 2, they have 2 games out of three where they're guaranteed to have a really good stage to play on. That seems viable to me.

Pika probably loses worse to IC than Olimar, but both MUs are definitely winnable- still seems viable.

Snake is actually pretty amazing on RC... Brinstar he's bad on. So, he bans that. Okay, now he has a bad stage vs... Marth in battlefield? That's about it. Looking at his MUs vs the top tiers:
Diddy- even/slight Snake advantage
Snake- 55:45 4th port
Falco- even/Snake wins
Marth- Even/incredibly small Marth advantage.
Wario- wins
IC- even/snake wins
Olimar- I've heard everything from slight Olimar advantage from American players to that Japan thinks that Snake wins.
Pika- yeah, he loses this one.
DDD (not top tier, but, whatever)- Low/mid/high level Snake probably loses. Top level, Snake wins.

Still seems viable to me.

My last post was directed to Doc King.

Wario/Falco are considered even. Marth/Oli are -1 for snake.

This is going by the MU chart+various tourny results at high level play.

Though I admit I'm not sure about Wario/Snake in regards to if they can be considered among the most viable solo. Despite these drawbacks snake still seems possibly up there.

Edit:

Icys is not viable solo with the current ruleset. There is a reason every notable icy player with top results has a very strong secondary/main for CPs. The same goes for Pikachu. I don't think a top Olimar has lost to a pikachu at all recently.

 

[C.J.]

The Marth one is just as easily accurate as not accurate. You say high level play, but Mike has a losing record vs Razer iirc (and Ramin's Snake <3 Mike). Everyone's beaten Ally's Snake with Marth. Then outside of those, sets between top level Snakes and Marth go back and forth pretty evenly.

Olimar I believe has a losing record vs Snake in Japan. I may be wrong on that however. Like I said, I've heard from -1 to +1.

Solo IC is certainly viable, imo. Let's just assume that IC loses every game on their CP. IC still has 2 great stages for them per set. Just because someone uses a secondary to enhance their chances of winning on a CP, doesn't mean that the main isn't solo-viable when the main has 2 good stages for them to preform on. All the secondary does is enhance their chances on a CP. I believe that it is reasonable for an IC to win game 1 and 3 often enough for them to be viable.

As far as Pika vs Oli, no doubt it's a difficult match-up. I still believe it to certainly be winnable. (Also, when do top Pikas beat top ICs?)

 

[zmx]

Hmm, now that you mention it I don't think top Pika's win against icys either. That only further shows he is not viable solo though. That's one of those MUs that doesn't really make sense imo. In theory with all his approach options and followups, not to mention thunder gimps, Pika seems like he should be winning in that MU or at least going even.

Last time I saw Mike vs Razer/Havok he won. Pretty sure he has a winning record against snakes.
As for Mr. R those were friendlies weren't they?

And I know it's still possible for icys to win but they point is they are at a major disadvantage. They almost have to win game 1. That's not the same for the rest of our list. 9b is the only icys player that consistently wins tournys going pretty much all icys but again that's with an extremely conservative stagelist. I would agree that he's among the most viable solo with such a ruleset.

Edit:

As a side note I just noticed that DDD is actually one of the best counter characters in the game. He beats Snake, Marth and Wario not to mention destroys Wolf and DK.

 

[C.J.]

Hmm, now that you mention it I don't think top Pika's win against icys either. That only further shows he is not viable solo though. That's one of those MUs that doesn't really make sense imo. In theory with all his approach options and followups, not to mention thunder gimps, Pika seems like he should be winning in that MU or at least going even.

Last time I saw Mike vs Razer/Havok he won. Pretty sure he has a winning record against snakes.
As for Mr. R those were friendlies weren't they?

And I know it's still possible for icys to win but they point is they are at a major disadvantage. They almost have to win game 1. That's not the same for the rest of our list. 9b is the only icys player that consistently wins tournys going pretty much all icys but again that's with an extremely conservative stagelist. I would agree that he's among the most viable solo with such a ruleset.

It offers credibility to the idea that Pika may not be solo-viable, however I believe the MUs to still be winnable- just hard. For reference, when do Marth players beat DDD? It's a hard MU, but it's still winnable.

Mike has a winning record vs Havok and Ally. An overall losing record vs Razer. NEO has a losing record vs Ally/other Snakes. Ramin has a very slight winning record over Calzorz (iirc) but Ramin is also a god-tier player so it's more than reasonable that he won because of a skill difference- something indicative of an even MU. I was corrected in that Calz has a winning record over Ramin but Leon has a winning record over Calz. MikeNeko goes pretty even with Snakes in Japan as well. Results lend to the idea of it being an even MU. And the Mike vs Ramin mention was a joke.

Also, with regard to 9B winning on a conservative stage list, he doesn't just win. He wins by a LARGE margin- 3-0 or 3-1 a lot. Even with a larger stage list, he's still obviously winning game one and many other stages decisively. So instead of 3-0s, he'll be winning 3-1. Kakera also showed similar wins, although not as dominant over a long period of time. But yes, they pretty much have to win game 1, luckily they get one of their stronger stages for game 1 so it is a reasonable conclusion to come to that a top IC player will win game 1 on a regular basis.

EDIT- Snake doesn't lose to DDD at top level. Coney/Atomsk/Japan/a few top level Snakes are my references for that.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing with Fox though is that he can do well against Dedede and Lucario.

no thats not the thing with fox. just stoppp. that has nothing to do with why fox is not a low tier.

 

[Dabuz]

no thats not the thing with fox. just stoppp. that has nothing to do with why fox is not a low tier.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL l

 

[Doc King]

no thats not the thing with fox. just stoppp. that has nothing to do with why fox is not a low tier.

Fox can do alright vs. someone like Falco or Snake. Lucas gets his *** whooped.

Can you please sir just take 3 ****ing seconds to carefully read my whole post before bashing me for stupid stuff?

You guys seem to just like bashing on me without actually knowing what I'm talking about.

 

[Cassio]

ZMX you seemed to build your list of misconceptions. Not even sure how Wario and Lucario made the list of solo viable before almost every other top tier.

Olimar being a bit easier and ICs being a bit tougher than is commonly percieved is what makes ICs tougher than olimar for pika. The issue is that ESAM not only has no experience against olimar, but hasn't even bother to play the MU with pikachu since he has ICs, and its rarely played otherwise aside from when Anther used to play (and had no issue with the MU). I think there was also an issue with the scaling on the MU chart since its not inaccurate to call olimar a -2, but pikachu is more in line with other -1s on olimars spread.

Using the scale of the BBR MU chart heres my opinion. Some of the +1/+2's Im unsure about

-1 |
0 |
+1 |
+2 |
+3 |

if I was using my preferred scaled it would look like this:

-2 |
-1 |
0 |
+1 |
+2 |
+3 |
+4 |

 

[z00ted]

Pikachu definitely loses to Peach.

 

[ChocoNaner]

Pikachu definitely loses to Peach.

**** your character :I

pika has better buns than peach anyway ichu:

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ChocoNana da bess.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

ZMX you seemed to build your list of misconceptions. Not even sure how Wario and Lucario made the list of solo viable before almost every other top tier.

Depends on the top tier.

 

[phi1ny3]

ZMX you seemed to build your list of misconceptions. Not even sure how Wario and Lucario made the list of solo viable before almost every other top tier.

Olimar being a bit easier and ICs being a bit tougher than is commonly percieved is what makes ICs tougher than olimar for pika. The issue is that ESAM not only has no experience against olimar, but hasn't even bother to play the MU with pikachu since he has ICs, and its rarely played otherwise aside from when Anther used to play (and had no issue with the MU). I think there was also an issue with the scaling on the MU chart since its not inaccurate to call olimar a -2, but pikachu is more in line with other -1s on olimars spread.

Using the scale of the BBR MU chart heres my opinion. Some of the +1/+2's Im unsure about

-1 |
0 |
+1 |
+2 |
+3 |

How did the consensus for Solo Sheik v. Pika become only +2? That MU is ridiculous as Sheik.

And wolf too, I don't really know that one, but I'd think it would be easier for Pika.

btw, autocorrect keeps trying to rewrite "Pika" as Pilates lol.

 

[DiskaSM]

Can you please sir just take 3 ****ing seconds to carefully read my whole post before bashing me for stupid stuff?

You guys seem to just like bashing on me without actually knowing what I'm talking about.

I don't say much here... but if you're complaining about people not reading your stuff or trying to understand exactly what you mean, then think about this: I feel like a lot of people are tired of seeing you constantly post ideas about every matchup and character; it makes it even harder for them to take you serious because you have no results. Like, 1 out of every 3 or 4 posts the past who knows how many pages has been from you.

If you really want people to take you more serious, I feel like you should stop posting so extremely often. And for the most part, limit what you say to things that are easy to understand, are well-founded, that don't contradict other things you've said, and that you've (hopefully) had some experience with.

This is just a friendly word of advice from me, take it as you wish. I do notice you've gotten a good deal of negative words here lately from a lot of people. You should listen a bit to what people are saying, and if you take my advice, don't post anywhere near as much as you have been. Let others talk.

Let's keep this discussion useful, happy and positive. I was quite pleased to see M2K post some a while back, I found his posts interesting to read. Hopefully we can get some input from Ally here as well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

hay diska,

m2k thinks Zelda is the worst character in the game

 

[Cassio]

How did the consensus for Solo Sheik v. Pika become only +2? That MU is ridiculous as Sheik.

And wolf too, I don't really know that one, but I'd think it would be easier for Pika.

btw, autocorrect keeps trying to rewrite "Pika" as Pilates lol.

Its not consensus. Sheik is fairly mobile, but the big thing is that she has a grab release upsmash on pika that can kill him fairly early. Theres been a lot of debate about wolf, both can be argued to be between +2 and +3, but with that chart +2s could be said to have a broad inclusive range. By the end of the project that seemed to be the trend on the BBR chart, where MUs were interpreted more broadly downward.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK guys, so I'm bored of trolling Peach, Wolf and Lucas players. Who should I troll in the future?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach isn't better than Sonic let alone Dedede

..................................................too easy, next!

 

[zmx]

ZMX you seemed to build your list of misconceptions. Not even sure how Wario and Lucario made the list of solo viable before almost every other top tier.

Olimar being a bit easier and ICs being a bit tougher than is commonly percieved is what makes ICs tougher than olimar for pika. The issue is that ESAM not only has no experience against olimar, but hasn't even bother to play the MU with pikachu since he has ICs, and its rarely played otherwise aside from when Anther used to play (and had no issue with the MU). I think there was also an issue with the scaling on the MU chart since its not inaccurate to call olimar a -2, but pikachu is more in line with other -1s on olimars spread.

Using the scale of the BBR MU chart heres my opinion. Some of the +1/+2's Im unsure about

-1 |
0 |
+1 |
+2 |
+3 |

if I was using my preferred scaled it would look like this:

-2 |
-1 |
0 |
+1 |
+2 |
+3 |
+4 |

I explained why they made the list before other top tiers in the following posts. Going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read them.

Falco/Icys get hard countered via stages (for falco it's characters as well).

Wario has one hard counter (DDD) and that MU actually seems doable going by recent results. And I feel he makes up for this by being one of the most stage versatile characters in the game.

Lucario doesn't destroy anyone but he doesn't get destroyed by anyone either. With the possible exception of MK but tbh I was thinking more of after the ban. So he doesn't get hard countered and thus is more solo viable.

Oh and ESAM has tried the olimar MU with Pikachu. I have seen it twice, he's probably tried it more and both ended badly for him and he had to switch to icys. I think you are underestimating just how good top Olimars have gotten lately especially with the ban.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lucario's worst matchup with MK gone is DDD. It's still a pretty doable matchup, but it's a great deal harder than anyone else. Personally it's my worst one, but that doesn't say a whole lot considering my matchup experience overall is pretty limited. I pretty much only play against DDD, Diddy, Mario, Luigi, Falco and ROB, and my friends agree they aren't quite as good as I am. The fact that I still lose to his DDD says something about the MU in general.

It isn't Top level play though, so I guess take it how you will. From what I've read, however, a lot of ppl feel the Lucario-DDD matchup is worse for Luca than the chart says it is. Some would call that a hard counter.

 

[Cassio]

Lucario and Wario both have MUs as bad as (and maybe worse than) anyone else in top tier except for probably falco. And at least snake deserves to be on before Marth. Find me any two nationals in America since brawls release where these three characters have placed top 8 as the primary character and Ill reconsider their solo viability.

And if youre going to use esams set vs nietono while ignoring the context of MU experience on both sides and the fact that ESAM entirely relies on his ICs for the MU, then remember that when he did use ICs he lost even worse than he did with pika. I know how good the top olimars are here, Im in the same region as 2 of the top 3 in the US. The MU is bad, but its not as bad as youre claiming it to be.