Official BBR Tier List v6

[GOofyGV]

I think IC are also really good just like Oli
imo it's
Diddy>Snake>Oli>IC>Falco
without mk

 

[SFA Smiley]

I don't see how people DON'T think Oli is top 3

He's got the results and the theory.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think is the 2nd best character with legal and banned. I think are the best with banned. 's only bad matchup is to be quite honest. Otherwise has a ton of positive matchups and few -1's like , maybe , possibly , and . has only 1 matchup of -2, which is . Every other matchup has is even or his favor except for and . Good thing is even vs both those characters . should be 3rd and 4th. I think this for both legal and banned. should be 5th with legal. just gets invalidated 3 positions because of lol.

 

[Dabuz]

Ah, I remember when was 18th on the tier list. How times have changed.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Then people learned how to play gay.

 

[lordhelmet]

Then Pearl Harbor happened.

Fixed .

 

[Doc King]

I think is the 2nd best character with legal and banned. I think are the best with banned. 's only bad matchup is to be quite honest. Otherwise has a ton of positive matchups and few -1's like , maybe , possibly , and . has only 1 matchup of -2, which is . Every other matchup has is even or his favor except for and . Good thing is even vs both those characters . should be 3rd and 4th. I think this for both legal and banned. should be 5th with legal. just gets invalidated 3 positions because of lol.

I actually think with banned, is the very best. has been getting a **** load of money, along with (Who I think is 2nd best without MK). gets owned too much by counterpicks.

Here's what I think the list should be like:

MK Banned

Top
A:
B:
C:

High
D:
E:

Middle
F:
G:

Low
H:
I:

Bottom
J:
K:

 

[Tesh]

How is Olimar not better than Snake? Who counters him as badly as pikachu counters snake?

 

[Doc King]

How is Olimar not better than Snake? Who counters him as badly as pikachu counters snake?

Doesn't like the climbers counter Olimar more than Pika counters snake? Because the chart says -2 for Olimar and -1 for Snake.

I also see that in John#'s money chart that Snake has been getting the most money and a noticable gap between the others with Diddy.

Although, Olimar is really good in this game. I think Oli going above Snake is a little too high for him.

 

[DMG]

Olimar not top 3, my job is done

 

[Flayl]

How is Olimar not better than Snake? Who counters him as badly as pikachu counters snake?

It turns out that dthrow chaingrab on Snake is pretty situational, I wouldn't call it a counter just yet

 

[Tesh]

Matchup seems to be all around bad for Snake regardless. The edgeguarding is pretty hard to watch.

 

[DiskaSM]

It turns out that dthrow chaingrab on Snake is pretty situational, I wouldn't call it a counter just yet

If you can get it off, it takes most of a stock for Snake.
The matchup is imo, Snake's worst. (I main Snake and have mained him since I unlocked him).
Pika's up close game, due to his grab and a few other things, beats Snake's. Pika totally wrecks Snake anytime Snake is in the air or offstage. Snake can die reasonably early from thunder or nair, especially from edgeguarding.
Pika's camping game is annoying to deal with, but long range Snake has the advantage.
If it weren't for the chaingrab, it would probably be close to even. But the chaingrab makes Pika a real counter to Snake, his worst (non MK) matchup. Imo. Also, cp stages generally favor Pika over Snake due to Snake being really bad in the air, especially in this matchup.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Can't you just blow yourself up to avoid the like 100% CG with the added bonus of putting Snake offstage?

 

[Doc King]

Man Pikachu is too good.

He seems to shut down pretty much everyone that has big gravity regardless of how good they are.

 

[Deleted member]

Doc King you shouldnt use the money chart as basis for your tier list claims.
Just saying.

 

[DiskaSM]

Can't you just blow yourself up to avoid the like 100% CG with the added bonus of putting Snake offstage?

Sometimes. You have to have a nade up close before he grabs though. at the edge, there's little you can do, and if pika gets a fthrow chaingrab on you, he can move you both out of the reach of the nade.

It's all situational. But it's still the most deadly lock/cg on Snake that can be performed, since it is so incredibly easy for the Pikachu. You can also be cg'd on walkoffs with his fthrow.

I've said what I wanted to. Me and a bunch of other Snake players think that Pika is Snake's worst non-MK matchup. -2.

 

[Doc King]

Doc King you shouldnt use the money chart as basis for your tier list claims.
Just saying.

Why not?

Tier list are supossed to be based off of tourney results/success/popularity. Not just matchups and theorycrafting.

Sometimes. You have to have a nade up close before he grabs though. at the edge, there's little you can do, and if pika gets a fthrow chaingrab on you, he can move you both out of the reach of the nade.

It's all situational. But it's still the most deadly lock/cg on Snake that can be performed, since it is so incredibly easy for the Pikachu. You can also be cg'd on walkoffs with his fthrow.

I've said what I wanted to. Me and a bunch of other Snake players think that Pika is Snake's worst non-MK matchup. -2.

I'm gonna try to play Pika vs. Snake from now on.

It seems like Olimar is pretty much like the best in the game. He doesn't get damaged by any chaingrab besides Pikas situational BF platform chaingrab and Falco, is the hardest character to approach, gives out a **** load of damage, has super great range, has a very small hurtbox, has good chaingrabs and combos, and kills early.

 

[C.J.]

@ DiskaSM He meant purposely use your explosives to deal damage to yourself in an attempt to get out of CG % ranges; not using an explosion from a nade to interrupt the CG

Lol @ the idea of Marth > IC post MK ban.

A: (Snake/Diddy) (Olimar/IC)
B: (Marth/Pika/Falco) Wario
the rest

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think MK beats Snake harder than Pikachu does. MK Snake is pretty close to even.

 

[DiskaSM]

I don't think MK beats Snake harder than Pikachu does. MK Snake is pretty close to even.

It's -1 or -2.

At the top level, Snake players usually lose to top MKs. Don't forget that the stage list helps MK a lot as well.

 

[Cassio]

I dont really think people are going to be picking up pika to counter snake, maybe its bad but its still a lot of effort to get that good with pika in the first place. Also people dont agree with me, but I really think how well pika does is dependent on port priority and stage.

IMO falco is still olimars worst MU. I used to watch this MU over and over again when I would make it to smashfests rich and larry would be the best players there, and over one summer in '10 there was a tournament series in my city where rich and larry were the only notable players that would make it and play each other in WFs and GFs every time for several tournaments. Even in friendlies this MU is depressing to watch. If snake has any -2's I dont think he has anything as bad as olimar vs falco.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I dont really think people are going to be picking up pika to counter snake, maybe its bad but its still a lot of effort to get that good with pika in the first place. Also people dont agree with me, but I really think how well pika does is dependent on port priority and stage.

IMO falco is still olimars worst MU. I used to watch this MU over and over again when I would make it to smashfests rich and larry would be the best players there, and over one summer in '10 there was a tournament series in my city where rich and larry were the only notable players that would make it and play each other in WFs and GFs every time for several tournaments. Even in friendlies this MU is depressing to watch. If snake has any -2's I dont think he has anything as bad as olimar vs falco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pubm6yZ2do

 

[Cassio]

I knew someone would post that, lol. Rich has also taken a few sets off larry. I think olimar can still win, its just bad.

 

[infiniteV115]

Wow
That was an amazing set.

Edit: Just watched that set and Larry vs Rain
Wtf, Larry must have ****ing evolved or something. He was playing ****ing amazingly, even though he lost to Nietono.
Damn, if I had known he was playing like this before Apex, I would have easily expected him to make top 6.

 

[C.J.]

Why did he keep recovering onto the stage =(

That was a really good set regardless.

I knew someone would post that, lol. Rich has also taken a few sets off larry. I think olimar can still win, its just bad.

Rich has taken like... 2 sets off of Larry, in over 2 years.
<3 Rich

 

[Doc King]

@ DiskaSM He meant purposely use your explosives to deal damage to yourself in an attempt to get out of CG % ranges; not using an explosion from a nade to interrupt the CG

Lol @ the idea of Marth > IC post MK ban.

A: (Snake/Diddy) (Olimar/IC)
B: (Marth/Pika/Falco) Wario
the rest

I actually like this list. Good job.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wow
That was an amazing set.

Did you not notice the bad decisions Larry did whenever he was off stage?
He continuously tried to Side-B back on it only to get read hard instead of mixing it up.

 

[Deleted member]

Why not?

Tier list are supossed to be based off of tourney results/success/popularity. Not just matchups .

Because money won is not about high level play. Money won includes tournaments without top players, which is not what a tier list is about. It's about how good a character is at the top level. Popularity is not what a tier list takes into account.

 

[Kuro~]

Ya lol. Larry was making terrible recovery options. His onstage game was up to snuff but he was making falcomaster1995 level mistakes....when it came to simple things.

Also, yes, snake can blow himself up to avoid the pika cg. However, he's actually good at avoiding the grab in the first place when you know the mu.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Did you not notice the bad decisions Larry did whenever he was off stage?
He continuously tried to Side-B back on it only to get read hard instead of mixing it up.

Its true side b'ing directly onto olimars F smash isn't a great idea, but even if Larry were to say go for the ledge, olimars F smash hitbox can drop below it and it could very well hit falco anyway.

Proper F smashes are solid edge guards against falco, it sucks lol. He could have done a little bit better though.




DEHF didn't exactly destroy him on the ground either.

Rich has taken like... 2 sets off of Larry, in over 2 years.
<3 Rich

I don't think that has as much to do with the match up as much as Larry beating rich.

Larry in their most recent set beat him with ic's (maybe mk?)

I don't think the falco oli mu helps rich by any means but I don't think its why he's losing.

 

[Doc King]

Because money won is not about high level play. Money won includes tournaments without top players, which is not what a tier list is about. It's about how good a character is at the top level. Popularity is not what a tier list takes into account.

That kind of makes sense. I should really look up the definition of a tier list.

Also, I haven't really seen any top level play in Brawl after the mk ban. Is there like any vids you guys can show me?

 

[Conviction]

Reflex vs. Esamn and Reflex vs. 4God should be uploaded sometime this week.

 

[Kuro~]

Hype.

10hypes.

Did he go pt or wario? Or mixture?

 

[Conviction]

Against 4God he did a mix and vs. Esam I pretty sure he went all PT.

 

[Mew2King]

ICs are broken except Snake counters them

ICs are pretty good against MK. Vinnie has 3-0d me before, almost 3 stocked nairo in friendly before apex, and bodied ally's MK really badly in crews in canada recently (3 vs 2 stock, and vinnie took the 2 stock only taking 25% from 2 0-death chain grabs). 0-death grabs are really powerful, which makes them strong vs every character except Snake can get around the 0-death grab really well by having grenades on him when they are nearby, making the chain grab significantly worse. 9b also has won sets vs every top MK in Japan (perfect record maybe? Not sure). I do not know if SLS or Rain have even taken a set off of him before. I think I heard Rain did only one time, I am unsure, but he beats everybody by walking around until he can get a grab then CGing people to death. A fully mastered ICs is/would be the best character if not for Snake MU imo.

Top 4 in some order imo are ICs/MK/Olimar/Diddy, with Snake/Falco at 5th/6th, Wario 7th (mikehaze thinks 3rd, but I am unsure of him being better than those characters). Something like that is my opinion. It of course depends the stages/ruleset allowed, but I feel the list should be close to that at top level play. I feel like they could all be the top tier (Wario borderline).

I've said olimar was top tier in 2008 <.< but no one took me seriously. Then again, I didn't understand how good wario/ICs were back then either.

 

[Seagull Joe]

ICs are broken except Snake counters them

ICs are pretty good against MK. Vinnie has 3-0d me before, almost 3 stocked nairo in friendly before apex, and bodied ally's MK really badly in crews (3 vs 2 stock, and won only taking 25% from 2 0-death chain grabs). 0-death grabs are really powerful, which makes them strong vs every character except Snake can get around the 0-death really well by having grenades on him when they are nearby. 9b also has won sets vs every top MK in Japan. I do not know if SLS or Rain have even taken a set off of him before. I heard Rain did one time, I am unsure, but he beats everybody by walking around until he can get a grab then CGing people to death. A fully mastered ICs is/would be the best character if not for Snake MU imo.

Top 4 in some order imo are ICs/MK/Olimar/Diddy, with Snake/Falco at 5th/6th Wario 7th (mikehaze thinks 3rd, but I am unsure of him being better than those characters). Something like that is my opinion. It of course depends the stages/ruleset allowed, but I feel the list should be close to that.

Depends on the ruleset for Jason. I agree with you except I think should be above based on tourney performances. also loses to in the head to head, which should matter somewhat.

In my opinion (Which is close to Jason's lol):
S TIER:
1.

A TIER:
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

B TIER:
7.
8/9. /

 

[Mew2King]

I'd agree with Pikachu right afterwords, but I feel Fox > Marth. Fox can run away from many top characters and laser, which FORCES approaches. Fox also has good air mixups, with fast fall air dodges into shield or up tilt, mixed with drill, mixed with shinestalls, means it is very hard to "trap" him. Marth is easier to trap and a lot of times you can have a 50% chance of covering his landing with something like powershield -> down smash depending on what you think he can do. It's hard to even 50/50 vs Fox because Fox has much more mixup options, which may not seem like much at first, but at top level play it means you have a counter mixup to any situation the enemy throws at you based on their habits (example Rain likes to sit in shield and block an attack, while Otori likes to overspace Uair, and other MKs like to go for shuttle loop right away, etc.)

Marth on the other hand suffers the weakness of being FORCED to approach in many matchups, because of no projectile and blocking being good against him.

This may seem small, but I honestly feel Fox is a better character, and the only thing that really holds him back is stupid dumb things like Pikachu/Sheik? 0-deathing him. Without that, I think Fox is clearly the better character, and very underrated in America.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's not stopping Falco from being on top, though (both Fox and Falco share pretty much the same bad match ups). I feel that Fox is a great character, but has way too many slight disadvantages/even match ups. he has a slight disadvantage against Olimar, loses to ICs and has a slight disadvantage against Diddy and Snake. Not too sure about Falco. The match up seems even, though.

 

[PSI Nexus]

With his magnificent electric abilities he can totally destroy water characters like Squirtle...

Not sure if you know but for the pokemon in this game, only the elements Fire, Water, and Grass count for anything. Charizard is weak to Water, resists Grass. Ivysaur is weak to Fire, resists Water.

Squirtle is weak to Grass and resists Fire. Therefore, Pikachu's attacks do no stronger to Squirtle than any other character. If Electric did do well against him, then Ness, Lucas, and Zelda would do good as well - their PSI/Magic attacks all count as electric (as proven when attacking a Yellow Pikmin).

The bottom line is, Electric attacks is for show and for continuity in the Pokemon series. They don't really mean anything, except when fighting an Olimar.