Official BBR Tier List v6

[zmx]

Okay, that's fine with me. Again I'm pretty skeptical. You have enough time to bair/fair?

Are we on for later today then?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Okay, that's fine with me. Again I'm pretty skeptical. You have enough time to bair/fair?

Are we on for later today then?

Fair works if I know for sure he will roll ahead of me. I actually have to move a lil towards that direction and buffer a fair after the dair. Bair not so much and a lil easier. Though I have a better option then both.

And yea I am.

 

[zmx]

Alright, be sure to record it. This is very interesting. If Peach is fast enough to even punish Lucario's roll on reaction I can only imagine how she fairs (no pun intended) against the rest of the cast's rolls.

 

[Kuro~]

Ike's DA will almost never kill unless their DI was awful. I think I've only ever killed with it once. To add to what San said from Jab cancels he can also bair iirc which works on some characters if they are put into a bad position. Likewise Jab cancelling them off stage could lead to spikes from dair or dtilt.

He also has ftilt but it's pretty bad. Very laggy for a tilt and hard to land but hey, if Ike players with godly reads can consistently land usmash at high level play, I don't see ftilt being completely out of the question.

Uair is an okay kill option in certain situations. It can even be used similar to fair and nair.

At extremely high percents (200+) lol downthrow also becomes a kill option.

Ftilt is great against ppl on the ledge.

SHFF upair is decent option to kill(san showed me that lol) as well it beating airdodges a bunch.

 

[Dark.Pch]

nvm. I got a friend who was able to get on wifi and help me with this. I made the Videos.

Punish a forward roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tACuzdJyfW8

if you float at the right height when you dair, you can pull away to a nair and hit lucario. Dash attacks works well if you cancel Dair a lil early. but Nair is better since you can instant cancel a Dair to a Nair, and you can keep your momentum with where lucario is gonna go. Bair can work too but I had trouble doing it on wifi. Closet thing I got to that was a phantom hit. Just barely missing lucario. When I play people offline I'mm make a vid with bair.

Back roll punish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plGl1ybKpyU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

cancel there then instant dash attack the other way. In the vid here when I did it the first time, I actually could have ran already and input a dash attack (again,it's wifi so timing is a lil screwed) but done correctly, you can hit lucario. I'm only gonna hit him with the first part of the dash attack. I can't hit him with the second part. if anything, he can power shield the second hit. the first part actually catches him out within the roll, so the player gets hit before they can gain control of lucario.

it's a lil similar to the grab release Peach has on meta knight. peach can grab release meta knight to a dash attack. the thing is, it only hits with the second part of it and only does 6%. meta hardly goes anywhere and you can't follow up after that. So it is a pretty useless grab release that deals weak damage, better to grab, get damage off of grab then throw him for more damage.

Now if I don't really feel like doing this and wanna keep more pressure. I don't have to go and punish your roll. I can easly land and run in the direction you roll. From there I can do her pesudo wave dash (her lil float hop) and start another mix up/reset. Kinda like melee tech chasing.

For those that dont know what this persudo wave dash is:

Wavedash

look at 7:34

People call it wasping, but i say persudo wavedash, cause it has the same uses and meaning as melee wavedashing. Now with this I can instantly stop in place from a dash. at any giving time. and do ANYTHING I want from it. So if I think Lucario will go behind me:

Pressure> Land>run backwards>PW (persudo wavedash)> Jab>etc..........

This allows me to keep up with you and then do as i please. So I have a good chance to reset the pressure once you roll away from me. Im in your face again, PW, and can do anything I want once your roll is over. its all mixups that can lead to a pressure reset if you try to run.

simply put, I can keep up with you and have 2 ways to deal with you if you roll and think you are safe.

 

[Steam]

lucario rolled later than he could have on the Broll punish.

and even on the F roll punish you had to preemptively move away and nair. the roll isn't completely safe, put peach cannot cover it while covering everything else he can do.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Broll if he moves on time he will still get hit. he Dash attack has good range and can keep up with rolls. The fact that lucario has a good one means that I can not get 2 hits of my dash attack. i just get just get one.

Froll, I move back cause I am thinking ahead of time. me knowing that pressure makes people make evasive action, I plan ahead. as I said before, if I feel he will roll back, I will Dair, them move back a lil to a dropping nair. if lucario rolls back, he will move into my nair. that's making a read/educated guess.

And as for covering what other tuff he can do, I just explained that. Again, I don't have to do for a roll punish. I just run in the direction I think you will go, and can reset the pressure you try to run from.

 

[Doc King]

imo Wolf and Fox are better than her, but I think the three of them should be in High tier, since they're pretty viable characters (generally).

I agree with this.

To fix what is in red first.

You fail at paying attention. What the hell did I just say to you?

This is a list of Peach good match ups.(even/+1)​

Even is not a complete win for of. It goes ether way. +1 states my chances of winning this match are a lil better then my opponent. Ether way these are good match ups.

And why I not mention her bad match match up.? Why did YOU not mention DDD bad match ups? You gonna come at me with this but not check yourself? Let me answer both those questions for you. Cause we here talking about good match ups and how the characters would fair in tourny. So is I am a Hypocrite, you the biggiest one around right now.

Also, keep it shut about snake and peach, you no knowing on that, just like everything else that comes out your mouth.



How stupid are you? And even match up does not count as a win for me. Or for the opponent. we gain no advantages or disadvantages. 50% chance I will win/lose. Same for the enemy. Thus an even fight and nothing is onesided.

Like......are you kidding me with this?



First off, you don't know a thing about me. I'm biased towards Peach? You have NO CLUE AT ALL I have hit these their list threads over the years with both her strengths and weakness. If people get info on Peach and knows what she can or cant do, it mostly came from me. if people say false stuff and they get corrected from the proper info, it came from me.

Im so bias that back then when praxis was beating lucarios and G&W left and right, I still said Peach still loses to them. Because in this community, if one loses to a character alot, people get hyped on that and create images and say they win. Im so bias, Peach has a higher win counter vs Top Pika players and while the rest thing Peach wins, I say it is an even match up. When I have every right to say Peach wins and have solid results for that.

Im so bias I refuse to give imput on Peach vs Wolf cause I don't know that match up fully and not use to play it.

And one thing you don't know. Im a Peach instructor for this side and AiB. And when I teach people I first have to brake down her flaws. And when I teach them match ups, I tell then everything a typical Peach gameplay would do and how they get **** for it. What they can not do and what the enemy can do to them to beat the hell out of them.

I spoke about Peach vs Marth here a while back, or on the Peach boards. Lots though that match up was even or Peach wins. I disagreed with that hard and broke down all that Marth could to do her and how he shuts down her good traits. Same time I mention What she can do to deal with marth. In the end, my mind not change while other thought otherwise. Peach does not beat marth or have an even match up.

So do me a favor, keep your mouth shut and don't speak so reckless about others when you know nothing about them. You make yourself look more stupid then you already are. And me not speaking about Peach weakness;

The community does it for me. All they do is ***** and cry about how peach can't kill, dies quick, etc. and people cause of this can't do match ups that she actually can do and wins. I been hearing this garbage since 2008. This is 2012. 4 years of people crying about peachs general flaws. So most of the time, I don't have to do it. You kids do it for me.

** When the hell I said she would be top of high tier? Really you just spitting stuff out.




......................What the hell does this has to do with what is going on here?

At this point, I don't even know what the argument is anymore. If it's Peach being high tier, than I can agree with that. But being better than Dedede, nope.

 

[-LzR-]

All hail the Doc King.

 

[Steam]

Broll if he moves on time he will still get hit. he Dash attack has good range and can keep up with rolls. The fact that lucario has a good one means that I can not get 2 hits of my dash attack. i just get just get one.

Froll, I move back cause I am thinking ahead of time. me knowing that pressure makes people make evasive action, I plan ahead. as I said before, if I feel he will roll back, I will Dair, them move back a lil to a dropping nair. if lucario rolls back, he will move into my nair. that's making a read/educated guess.

And as for covering what other tuff he can do, I just explained that. Again, I don't have to do for a roll punish. I just run in the direction I think you will go, and can reset the pressure you try to run from.

the fact is you still have to predict what lucario does in order to get damage. you retreat a nair to punish forward roll and lucario stays in shield then at worst it'll reset for lucario because even if the nair doesn't whiff lucario will be able to easily reset the situation if he wants.

my point this entire time has been that it's not just ggs once peach gets in, she does actually have to do work to get the damage.

 

[Doc King]

I agree with Steam.

 

[-LzR-]

Back when I actually mained Peach I couldn't deal with Lucarios throws. I had to guess where he was going, when I had reacted, he had already went far away. The best I could do was throw turnips.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ike's DA will almost never kill unless their DI was awful. I think I've only ever killed with it once. To add to what San said from Jab cancels he can also bair iirc which works on some characters if they are put into a bad position. Likewise Jab cancelling them off stage could lead to spikes from dair or dtilt.

He also has ftilt but it's pretty bad. Very laggy for a tilt and hard to land but hey, if Ike players with godly reads can consistently land usmash at high level play, I don't see ftilt being completely out of the question.

Uair is an okay kill option in certain situations. It can even be used similar to fair and nair.

At extremely high percents (200+) lol downthrow also becomes a kill option.

its really not hard to call an airdodge and up smash it with ike. I did that mess consistently the first day I picked up the character.

At this point, I don't even know what the argument is anymore. If it's Peach being high tier, than I can agree with that. But being better than Dedede, nope.

If I was going to the national smash tournament, and someone told me I had to play either ddd or peach solo, and I was at an equal skill level with both of them, I would pick peach since she is more likely to place higher when fighting different characters across the board.

I agree with Steam.

Im going to call you Nova from now on, because all you are is a massive **** Rider.

 

[Doc King]

its really not hard to call an airdodge and up smash it with ike. I did that mess consistently the first day I picked up the character.


If I was going to the national smash tournament, and someone told me I had to play either ddd or peach solo, and I was at an equal skill level with both of them, I would pick peach since she is more likely to place higher when fighting different characters across the board.


Im going to call you Nova from now on, because all you are is a massive **** Rider.

When the hell is someone gonna force you to solo a character? That was the dumbest **** I've ever heard. It sounds like an excuse to make D3 look bad. You fan boys make me laugh sometimes.

Ally goes many characters and he's pretty successful. He uses a lot of MK, Snake, and climbers. Sometimes it can be good to main more than one character or have like a few characters that you play sometimes.

 

[BMC]

When the hell is someone gonna force you to solo a character? That was the dumbest **** I've ever heard. It sounds like an excuse to make D3 look bad. You fan boys make me laugh.

Doc King, it's called a hypothetical situation. Character viability determines how well a character would do at high level, tournament setting play without the aid of secondaries. You've been saying D3 is viable, but you're also saying D3 is viable only with secondaries.

 

[Conviction]

Hahahahaha Doc King had the audacity to call not only someone but a group of people fanboys. Oh god I'm going to get fired at work if I keep laughing like this.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Forreal though, I feel half the time you dont understand what you are saying so when people like D.Pch come through you get lost.

 

[archer.]

Saying a character is viable with a secondary doesn't mean ****. Otherwise every character is viable at a high level of play because suddenly you can use a top tier character for all of, say, Ganon's bad match-ups.

... OH WAIT.

 

[Conviction]

Dat DKing logic doe

 

[DMG]

But I only have to use ONE secondary guize!!!!11!!!!!!

*The tune of MK*

 

[Doc King]

Then again, this is kind of like saying Falco is not viable because of his -3 on Pika and -2 on climbers. I think that if a character like Dedede has solid +2 advantages on Wario and Lucario and has a +1 matchup aainst Snake and Marth, that makes a character viable in a tournament. You also never mention Peach with her horrible -3 MK matchup and her -2 matchup on Snake.

A secondary would matter because they can help you overcome their bad matchups. As long as someone can do good stuff, they should be considered viable. If you consider Peach viable, then Dedede has another good +1 matchup and moves higher in rankings.

Also, what I mean by a character being viable with a secondary is that you can play certain matchups to wreck certain characters (Most of them don't really get countered by many characters) although, you will have to use a pocket character for certain matchups. As for Peach, you have the same thing but with less powerful good matchups and less painful bad matchups. You can't always expect to overplay matchups and claim it's a win for that character. Sometimes they will be wins and sometimes they will be losses.

Also, lets talk about strengths and weaknesses. Dedede has good power, great range, good and rather broken chain/grab game, good edge guarding, pretty well dodging tools, amazing cp system, and opponents not being able to DI or SDI out of chaingrab combos. His 3 main weaknesses which are pretty big ones are speed, recovery, huge hurtbox, and lack of camping except slow *** characters like Ike. Peach has the strength of floating powers, little lag attacks, decent combos (But nowhere near as good as D3's), and recovery (Which D3 actually is actually good at punishing). Her weaknesses are poor power, kind of crappy approaching (Although D3 is a lot worse), the ability of SDIing and DIing of opponents, Dedede's chaingrab (The high traction, the ability for D3 to up smash combo on every upward slope while being easy to kill (Unlike Lucario, you can up smash it stale and is easier to do unstale), and one of the better frame advantages), easy to kill, and certain air combos like marth's fair and D3's bair.

 

[Conviction]

Maybe this will make understand why we keep laughing at you...the tier is based on SOLO viability not WITH A SUPPORTING SECONDARY viability.

Somethings wrong people use my concept but in different words and you still don't get it?

People want consistency not hit and miss? You do well against Snake, Diddy, and MK all you want but if you get ***** or bodiede by random mid and low tiers that cuts your solo viability but makes you a viable secondary.

 

[Doc King]

Maybe this will make understand why we keep laughing at you...the tier is based on SOLO viability not WITH A SUPPORTING SECONDARY viability.

Somethings wrong people use my concept but in different words and you still don't get it?

People want consistency not hit and miss? You do well against Snake, Diddy, and MK all you want but if you get ***** or bodiede by random mid and low tiers that cuts your solo viability but makes you a viable secondary.

The thing with you guys is that you make it sound like Peach has like no bad matchups at all. Peach will still have hard *** matchups against mk, snake, dedede, and marth. Peach doesn't have as many good matchups and they're not that huge. I mean you won't be able to beat the best players who mainly use like mk and snake. D3 actually beats snake (Slightly, but pretty good for 3rd best in the game) and snake is one of the most dominating characters in this game. Peach will lose badly to Snakes and can't tolerate his up tilt and grenades. We got Marth which D3 actually beats and doesn't have many bad matchups. While peach gets wrecked by Marth with his fair. Peach also losses to Dedede. Dedede can chaingrab her (And is the only good one (I know Climbers can literally do this )), edge guard her well since she a floaty, and has a nice killing advantage.

While both lose very badly to mk, D3 does better because he has options out of mach tornado and can deal with counterpicks well. He also has a nice killing advantage (Although killing can be kind of hard).

Do you guys really think that Peach is better than Dedede? Also if you're counting Peach as viable, then D3 has a hard counter matchup against Wolf while Peach losses to him.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Do you guys really think that Peach is better than Dedede? Also if you're counting Peach as viable, then D3 has a hard counter matchup against Wolf while Peach losses to him.

There are not nearly as many Wolves as there are Olimars, Diddies, and Falcos, who Peach does arguably better than Dedede at. So Peach's appeal swings right back.

 

[popsofctown]

There are not nearly as many Wolves as there are Olimars, Diddies, and Falcos, who Peach does arguably better than Dedede at. So Peach's appeal swings right back.

You only get to choose one.


Pure, unrealistic, abstract theorycrafting where D3 mains aren't using secondaries and have no choice but hold down B and charge Diddies in the face exactly 1/38th of the time.

Or realistic evaluation of how the character tends to actually perform in a tournament environment when used well, keeping in mind how frequently his counters are played and how easily a secondary can cover his counters.


You can't have both, that's silly. If you want to say "The wolf vs. D3 matchup comes up rarely in tournament because no one plays wolf", an incredibly legitimate counter is that "The Olimar vs. D3 matchup doesn't come up in tournament because whenever d3's come up against Olimar, they don't pick <censored> D3"

 

[Doc King]

^This!

Also there are a lot of Snake's in tournaments and D3 is one of the few counters and Peach losses to Snake.

 

[DMG]

You only get to choose one.


Pure, unrealistic, abstract theorycrafting where D3 mains aren't using secondaries and have no choice but hold down B and charge Diddies in the face exactly 1/38th of the time.

Or realistic evaluation of how the character tends to actually perform in a tournament environment when used well, keeping in mind how frequently his counters are played and how easily a secondary can cover his counters.


You can't have both, that's silly. If you want to say "The wolf vs. D3 matchup comes up rarely in tournament because no one plays wolf", an incredibly legitimate counter is that "The Olimar vs. D3 matchup doesn't come up in tournament because whenever d3's come up against Olimar, they don't pick <censored> D3"

But then you're not looking at how viable the character really is if you're just picking and choosing when to use him. If I only use D3 vs DK, that doesn't mean D3 is viable because I'm opting out of his bad MU's in tournament.

Anyone in the world can avoid their bad MU's by not picking that character in that scenario lol. That doesn't change the character's actual viability unless you're analyzing specific shifts and patterns in the metagame that say hey people are using less D3 counter and more D3 good MU's.

 

[Coney]

^This!

Also there are a lot of Snake's in tournaments and D3 is one of the few counters and Peach losses to Snake.

Except at the top level, DDD doesn't even beat Snake...

 

[Chuee]

^This!

Also there are a lot of Snake's in tournaments and D3 is one of the few counters and Peach losses to Snake.

You really just said D3 counters Snake.
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

 

[Doc King]

But then you're not looking at how viable the character really is if you're just picking and choosing when to use him. If I only use D3 vs DK, that doesn't mean D3 is viable because I'm opting out of his bad MU's in tournament.

Anyone in the world can avoid their bad MU's by not picking that character in that scenario lol. That doesn't change the character's actual viability unless you're analyzing specific shifts and patterns in the metagame that say hey people are using less D3 counter and more D3 good MU's.

Use D3 for Wario, Snake, Lucario, and Marth.

Except at the top level, DDD doesn't even beat Snake...

Really? It's still pretty good though for 3rd best. A lot ****ing better than that ***** Peach ***** can do against him.

Peach really only has a couple of things better which are Olimar (Meh), Pikachu (Meh), climbers (Amazing one), and Diddy (meh, top level play Diddy's can out beat it).

Dedede has like Wario (They both do good, but D3 is very solid and much better with control of air release, chaingrab, and slope infinites), Snake (The one I think largely matters), MK (MK legalness, Peach has to be less viable), Marth (Another good one like Snake), Lucario (Not as important as Marth and Snake, but an alright one), Game and Watch (Alright), Wolf (Amazing one), Peach (lol ), and toonlink (Alright).

I would pretty much count Falco and Fox the same because they both suck at fighting them. Zero Suit Samus is basically even for both.

You really just said D3 counters Snake.
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Him along with Olimar, Pika, and Marth do pretty well against him compared to others.

 

[C.J.]

You only get to choose one.


Pure, unrealistic, abstract theorycrafting where D3 mains aren't using secondaries and have no choice but hold down B and charge Diddies in the face exactly 1/38th of the time.

Or realistic evaluation of how the character tends to actually perform in a tournament environment when used well, keeping in mind how frequently his counters are played and how easily a secondary can cover his counters.


You can't have both, that's silly. If you want to say "The wolf vs. D3 matchup comes up rarely in tournament because no one plays wolf", an incredibly legitimate counter is that "The Olimar vs. D3 matchup doesn't come up in tournament because whenever d3's come up against Olimar, they don't pick <censored> D3"

Yeah, no.
The tier list is a measure of how any given single character can be expected to preform in the current metagame (at least, that is my estimation of what a tier list is). Given this, the idea that nobody plays wolf is a very relevant fact. Since few people play Wolf, any given character's MU with Wolf is significantly less important and shouldn't be held in as high of a regard. Now, since Olimar is a common character to see in tournament, how an individual character does against Olimar is highly relevant. If a main of a character "is forced" off of their main (in this case, DDD) in the MU, that fact is highly important to a character's placing on the tier list. It's called a weighted tier list. You see them all the time, usually in a different way (typically judging off of a character's overall MU spread being weighted based on how important a given MU is).

Really? It's still pretty good though for 3rd best. A lot ****ing better than that ***** Peach ***** can do against him.

Peach really only has a couple of things better which are Olimar (Good one), Pikachu (Meh), climbers (Amazing one), and Diddy (meh, top level play Diddy's can out beat it).

Dedede has like Wario (They both do good, but D3 is very solid and much better with control of air release, chaingrab, and slope infinites), Snake (The one I think largely matters).

After Zak directly tell Doc that Snake beats DDD, Doc reasserts that DDD beats Snake. I'm confused.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Yeah, no.
The tier list is a measure of how any given single character can be expected to preform in the current metagame (at least, that is my estimation of what a tier list is). Given this, the idea that nobody plays wolf is a very relevant fact. Since few people play Wolf, any given character's MU with Wolf is significantly less important and shouldn't be held in as high of a regard. Now, since Olimar is a common character to see in tournament, how an individual character does against Olimar is highly relevant. If a main of a character "is forced" off of their main (in this case, DDD) in the MU, that fact is highly important to a character's placing on the tier list. It's called a weighted tier list. You see them all the time, usually in a different way (typically judging off of a character's overall MU spread being weighted based on how important a given MU is).

Only time I'm forced off of is vs , which is every local because of "The King" (This person should be easy to figure out. A rival of mine and a person I look up to in the smash world). Every other time I use is just cause I'd prefer an advantageous matchup to an even one (Like vs is 's advantage and easier then vs , which is an even matchup).

 

[allshort17]

Doc King, let me try to put it in mathematical terms on why Peach is a more viable character than Dedede. Keep in mind my numbers come from John#'s 2012 popularity section. This is also not factoring in MK.

So, right now I am only considering high tiers because they consist of the majority of the metagame. According to his numbers, high tiers are 165 of the 348 people chosen in tournament this year. That is also 165/348 or .4741. Now out of the high tier or above, Dedede has 5 match-ups that are -2 or a counters to Dedede (they are Diddy, Falco, Ics, Olimar, and Pika) while Peach has one -2 in the high tier or above (Snake). That means Dedede's -2's in high tier and above compared to all the characters in high tier and above are 5/8 or .625. Peach's is 1/8 or .125.

So far the math we have is:
*# of times character used in high tier or above versus # of times all characters have been used= 165/348= .4741
*The ratio of Dedede's -2 or higher MU's in high tier or above= 5/8= .625
*Ratio of Peach's -2 or higher MU's in high tier or above= 1/8= .125

Now, what you do to find out the probability of encountering a -2 or higher match-up in the higher tier or above is multiply the percent of high tiers used versus all characters used times the percent of bad MU's in the high tier. For Dedede, this would be (165/348) times (5/8). That equals .2963. For Peach that would be (165/348) times (1/8) which equals .0593. Multiply both those by 100 to get the percent on average at which each character will encounter a -2 or higher MU in the high tier. For Dedede it would be 29.63% and for Peach it would be 5.93%.

The math we have so far:
*Probability that Dedede would meet a bad high tier MU=(165/348)x(5/8)=.2963
*Probability that Peach would meet a bad high tier MU=(165/348)x(1/8)=.0593
*Percent that either character will meet a bad high tier MU= multiply each answer above by 100.

If you choose to give the argument that if you just pocket another character, then consider the fact that Dedede has 6 -2 MU's to worry about verses Peach's one. That means you have to put in six times the work to pocket a character with Dedede compared to with Peach.

tl;dr version

*The percent that Dedede will meet a bad high tier MU is 29.63%
*The percent that Peach will meet a bad high tier MU is 5.93%
*It takes more work to pocket a character with Dedede compared to pocketing a character with Peach.

Doc King, if you don't understand my math then I will gladly help you through PM's. This goes for anyone who is confused about me write-up. However with my math and everybody's arguments against you, if you can't comprehend that Peach is a better character than Dedede then either you don't understand the concept of "solo viability" or you very much over hype Dedede's potential.

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, let me try to put it in mathematical terms on why Peach is a more viable character than Dedede. Keep in mind my numbers come from John#'s 2012 popularity section. This is also not factoring in MK.

So, right now I am only considering high tiers because they consist of the majority of the metagame. According to his numbers, high tiers are 165 of the 348 people chosen in tournament this year. That is also 165/348 or .4741. Now out of the high tier or above, Dedede has 5 match-ups that are -2 or a counters to Dedede (they are Diddy, Falco, Ics, Olimar, and Pika) while Peach has one -2 in the high tier or above (Snake). That means Dedede's -2's in high tier and above compared to all the characters in high tier and above are 5/8 or .625. Peach's is 1/8 or .125.

So far the math we have is:
*# of times character used in high tier or above versus # of times all characters have been used= 165/348= .4741
*The ratio of Dedede's -2 or higher MU's in high tier or above= 5/8= .625
*Ratio of Peach's -2 or higher MU's in high tier or above= 1/8= .125

Now, what you do to find out the probability of encountering a -2 or higher match-up in the higher tier or above is multiply the percent of high tiers used versus all characters used times the percent of bad MU's in the high tier. For Dedede, this would be (165/348) times (5/8). That equals .2963. For Peach that would be (165/348) times (1/8) which equals .0593. Multiply both those by 100 to get the percent on average at which each character will encounter a -2 or higher MU in the high tier. For Dedede it would be 29.63% and for Peach it would be 5.93%.

The math we have so far:
*Probability that Dedede would meet a bad high tier MU=(165/348)x(5/8)=.2963
*Probability that Peach would meet a bad high tier MU=(165/348)x(1/8)=.0593
*Percent that either character will meet a bad high tier MU= multiply each answer above by 100.

If you choose to give the argument that if you just pocket another character, then consider the fact that Dedede has 6 -2 MU's to worry about verses Peach's one. That means you have to put in six times the work to pocket a character with Dedede compared to with Peach.

tl;dr version

*The percent that Dedede will meet a bad high tier MU is 29.63%
*The percent that Peach will meet a bad high tier MU is 5.93%
*It takes more work to pocket a character with Dedede compared to pocketing a character with Peach.

Doc King, if you don't understand my math then I will gladly help you through PM's. This goes for anyone who is confused about me write-up. However with my math and everybody's arguments against you, if you can't comprehend that Peach is a better character than Dedede then either you don't understand the concept of "solo viability" or you very much over hype Dedede's potential.

You can't just look at bad matchups, you need to look at good matchups. Dedede has 2/13 good matchups. Peach has nothing. Chance you're actually gonna be using this ***** is ZERO! D3 will have a little viability.

Why would you wanna play a killless piece of **** that can't beat **** over an alright character with a few counters?

Dedede>Peach

Edit: I would honestly put Falco, Marth, and Dedede as -2 for Peach. Marth will have a fun time fairing Peach, D3 can chaingrab and bair and survive and has stage abusing. Falco can lazer and play keep away pretty well on Peach.

Also, Lucario has a handful of -2 matchups against D3, Fox, and Snake. Is he unviable then?

Wario has the same thing with Dedede and Marth. Is he unviable?

Falco has a hard counter and a -2.

Fox and Wolf has 2 freaking -3's.

 

[Conviction]

Lol he is getting so tight! Having even mus def counts as a plus though.

That saltttttttt

 

[allshort17]

Ok, I will look at their positive MU's. Assume that all -1 through +1 MU's are all practically even and that any MU over -1 or +1 is a counter. Also, I am only talking about all the characters high tier and up.

How is having 1 good counter and 6 bad counters better than having 0 good counters but only 1 bad counter?

 

[Chuee]

Peach really only has a couple of things better which are Olimar (Meh), Pikachu (Meh), climbers (Amazing one), and Diddy (meh, top level play Diddy's can out beat it).

Dedede has like Wario (They both do good, but D3 is very solid and much better with control of air release, chaingrab, and slope infinites), Snake (The one I think largely matters), MK (MK legalness, Peach has to be less viable), Marth (Another good one like Snake), Lucario (Not as important as Marth and Snake, but an alright one), Game and Watch (Alright), Wolf (Amazing one), Peach (lol ), and toonlink (Alright).

I can't even seriously reply to you anymore.
I could honestly point out like 20 reasons why this one measly paragraph is ridiculous. It's just so awful that I can't even force myself to list anything because that would be wasting time I could use doing something else that actually mattered.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im mad because im stupid, ignorant, and my character isnt as good as I want him to/think he should be.

If you arent willing to be convinced of an opinion other than your own, why do you even bother posting?

Can you just go away please? I used to like coming here because there was interesting discussion happening. Than you showed up, and I still enjoyed it because you were stupid and watching you make a fool of yourself was amusing, but now its annoying, and quite frankly, its sad. Even coney says youre wrong and need to shut the hell up.

Theres a reason you feel like EVERYONE is against you. Its because you are stupid, and wrong in just about everything you say.

 

[z00ted]

> in terms of viability.

You can tell from just looking at John#'s chart or looking at the amount of high level/placing mains of both characters. Peach has a lot more than DDD.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You can't just look at bad matchups, you need to look at good matchups. Dedede has 2/13 good matchups. Peach has nothing. Chance you're actually gonna be using this ***** is ZERO! D3 will have a little viability.

Why would you wanna play a killless piece of **** that can't beat **** over an alright character with a few counters?

Dedede>Peach

Edit: I would honestly put Falco, Marth, and Dedede as -2 for Peach. Marth will have a fun time fairing Peach, D3 can chaingrab and bair and survive and has stage abusing. Falco can lazer and play keep away pretty well on Peach.

Also, Lucario has a handful of -2 matchups against D3, Fox, and Snake. Is he unviable then?

Wario has the same thing with Dedede and Marth. Is he unviable?

Falco has a hard counter and a -2.

Fox and Wolf has 2 freaking -3's.

should be only -2 vs , but meh...

This whole post is gonna summon a WoT from Dark Peach. INCOMINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

 

[z00ted]

Yeah, I'm not even going to respond to Doc King.. because it's pretty apparent that he doesn't follow Peach's success in tournaments as compared to Dedede's.

I'll let my boy Dark Pch handle him, lmao.