Official BBR Tier List v6

[Nicole]

O **** MY BAD xI

I forgot you mained peach LMAO ichu:

Edit: Not gonna lie, I was watching the stream where nicole got 2nd and I have my doubts about whether some players were really trying all that hard because they went from crushing their opponents the round before and when they got to her they were playing like the nexus I:

yeah they probably wanted me to win the money instead of them. most people in the midwest actually hate money, and hate placing well too. its a strange place that you're clearly not familiar with. oh plus they like losing to girls that play mid-tiers, it really boosts their egos. oh and i guess logic isnt from the midwest but he ESPECIALLY hates money and winning.

but nah i didnt get that 2nd place legit at all. i'm a very bad player and everyone felt sorry for me.

this is a silly post.

 

[NAKAT]

yeah they probably wanted me to win the money instead of them. most people in the midwest actually hate money, and hate placing well too. its a strange place that you're clearly not familiar with. oh plus they like losing to girls that play mid-tiers, it really boosts their egos. oh and i guess logic isnt from the midwest but he ESPECIALLY hates money and winning.

but nah i didnt get that 2nd place legit at all. i'm a very bad player and everyone felt sorry for me.

this is a silly post.

The sarcasm in this post is on point!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

EXCATLY!!!!!​

tee hee hee

I have nothing to add to this conversation, other than Peach is xtreme kool.

 

[Steam]

lucario's jumpsquat is 6 frames lol.

and to punish lucario's roll from a dair you're going to have to preemptively start floating towards him during/after Dair, if you can even make it there at all. I know there's no way she can punish it on reaction because of the distance she has to cover :I

but then again I'm probably being trolled.

@infinite- I think the part that makes it seem fast is how quick the entire animation is.

 

[zmx]

People still think icys isn't top tier? Lol.

They are definitively viable solo. Even with brinstar and RC legal. All it really means is you have to win game 1. Though Icys isn't completely horrible on RC either. Just ban brinstar.

They have extremely good results to show that they are top tier with or without MK. Vinnie places 1-3 consistently going mainly him. 9b has absolutely dominated Japan in the past with him. And the excuse that it's only because Japan is a weaker region no longer applies.

At Apex, 2 of the top 8 used Icys. Only MK was used more (3 of the top 8 iirc).

Also claiming that results don't matter if secondaries were used is logically flawed. If we were to believe this then many results from top players of characters should be ignored.

With MK legal at this point I'd say the top 5 in no order are:

MK, Icys, Olimar, Snake, Diddy

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol

Who even wants to play a game lik that?

MK, Icies, Oli, diddy top tier

most annoying game ever

 

[zmx]

I don't know about anyone else but there's really no character in this game I don't enjoy playing against. Maybe I'm an exception.

Keep in mind that's not to say I wouldn't get destroyed by top players of any of those characters. But I'd still enjoy it nonetheless and would focus on learning from it.

 

[Cassio]

After the last few pages, Ive decided Peach is the Marth of mid-tier.

 

[zmx]

There has been a lot of Peach hype lately and I'm unsure why.

Even on the AIB ladder, currently 2 of the top 8 are Peach players.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach stomps low tier.

Then again, so does Lucas. >_>

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't know about anyone else but there's really no character in this game I don't enjoy playing against. Maybe I'm an exception.

Keep in mind that's not to say I wouldn't get destroyed by top players of any of those characters. But I'd still enjoy it nonetheless and would focus on learning from it.

Maybe that's because people on Wifi aren't as willing to camp as people who have a good shot at making a lot of money.

I imagine you haven't really faced anybody on Wifi that was like M2K; scrooging on smashville to run out the timer, or running away on RC to run out the timer.

Or a campy Olimar.

(No disrespect intended toward M2K)

 

[zmx]

Maybe that's because people on Wifi aren't as willing to camp as people who have a good shot at making a lot of money.

I imagine you haven't really faced anybody on Wifi that was like M2K; scrooging on smashville to run out the timer, or running away on RC to run out the timer.

Or a campy Olimar.

(No disrespect intended toward M2K)

Oh believe me, Wifi has no shortage of players that play to win. Especially since most of the best players are strong offline players anyway.

I've played insanely campy players in the past. Pit in some ways is even worse than MK. They'll plank, they'll scrooge while constantly shooting arrows. This is a much bigger problem on wifi because it's extremely hard to PS arrows or approach while doing so.

I regularly play an MK that loves to plank to no end. And since it's just friendlies there isn't exactly a LGL. I have to wait patiently while the timer is running out........

But none of that stuff really bothers me anymore, I think I might have developed much more patience. The only thing that annoys me is lag (such as not being able to shield projectiles because of it) especially if it heavily decides outcomes because that's an external factor that shouldn't exist.

Edit:

As for Olimar, I've played Anour in the past. I lost because he's a really good, much better player, not because of any "lame" tactics.

 

[DeLux]

@Zmx - Using Vinnie as an example as to why Solo-ICs is top tier is a bad example (as much as I love Vinnie). The fact that he has an elite Game and Watch is a HUGE deterrent in the counter picking game. He's the best ICs atm, but even still, why would someone counter pick to RC just to face the best GnW in the nation as well? 9B also plays on the Japanese stage list with six stages, meaning the WORST he might see is Delfino. He's also amazing, but again he doesn't have to practically forfeit 1/3rd of his games by stage alone.

The highest placings for ICs that are only Solo ICs recently is either Smoom 13/139 at Whobo3 or myself (33/405 Apex 2012). I don't think the Apex thing really counts for why ICs aren't top tiered because it didn't have RC/Brinstar legal.

Saying RC isn't horrible for ICs is an absolute joke. There's a reason why the elite IC players (save the two exceptions) have a strong secondary, and it's called necessity. If the person is anywhere competent at the matchup, I will forfeit the RC game in tournament and just go straight to game 3 assuming I win game 1 because it's that bad. If an IC beats someone on RC, it's because their opponent played a character that doesn't matter or they are horrendous at the matchup and are bad and should feel bad.

If ICs were so amazing assuming the standard stagelist with RC/Brinstar legal, they wouldn't have solo results consistent with the lower high tier to upper mid tier.

 

[zmx]

@Zmx - Using Vinnie as an example as to why Solo-ICs is top tier is a bad example (as much as I love Vinnie). The fact that he has an elite Game and Watch is a HUGE deterrent in the counter picking game. He's the best ICs atm, but even still, why would someone counter pick to RC just to face the best GnW in the nation as well? 9B also plays on the Japanese stage list with six stages, meaning the WORST he might see is Delfino. He's also amazing, but again he doesn't have to practically forfeit 1/3rd of his games by stage alone.

The highest placings for ICs that are only Solo ICs recently is either Smoom 13/139 at Whobo3 or myself (33/405 Apex 2012). I don't think the Apex thing really counts for why ICs aren't top tiered because it didn't have RC/Brinstar legal.

Saying RC isn't horrible for ICs is an absolute joke. There's a reason why the elite IC players (save the two exceptions) have a strong secondary, and it's called necessity. If the person is anywhere competent at the matchup, I will forfeit the RC game in tournament and just go straight to game 3 assuming I win game 1 because it's that bad. If an IC beats someone on RC, it's because their opponent played a character that doesn't matter or they are horrendous at the matchup and are bad and should feel bad.

If ICs were so amazing assuming the standard stagelist with RC/Brinstar legal, they wouldn't have solo results consistent with the lower high tier to upper mid tier.

I have seen players like Ally play successfully on RC while going Icys. I don't consider it undo-able. And IIRC it was against decent-top level players. Not randoms. But I understand your point.

At any rate more and more tournys are being played with both stages banned so it's not as a big factor as it used to be.

Vinnie recently got second at a major Canadian tourny going from the looks of it, all Ice Climbers. Yes Brinstar and RC was banned but still.

I think you agree at least that with a conservative stage list Icys is top tier.

 

[DeLux]

Show me Ally beating people good at the MU on RC via video please. I say it in earnest because forfeiting that game gets old after awhile.

Otherwise I definitely agree.

You remove those stages, (meaning they ban delfino and the worst they play on is something like Halberd/Frigate) and they are absurd. Vinnie/ESAM/lain have definitely shown that for some time now. But as long as those stages are legal, ICs without a secondary to cover those stages every set isn't higher than low high/upper mid.

 

[zmx]

Can't access youtube atm. I will post a link a couple of hours from now if find it.

 

[FEFIZ]

Tier list 7? This number 6 is old now xD. Next tier list is without MK or the borth (with and without him)?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

\

All Snake gets is Utilt Uair and Bair. At least thats all that's worthy: Nair isn't worth it if you SDI. Grabbing him with Snake besides pivot grabbing is also hard. He's better off trying to outright punish Wario OOS with tilts or Utilt immediately as Wario comes in than try to grab/shield grab him.


Olimar... there's a side of it I think you may not know about. The Wario camping Olimar side. Go look at recent vids of Bassem vs Denti.

That's all Snake really needs as far as grab release options go. Those Three moves fresh kill Wario at like 140%. I could see this match being even since Wario is one of the best characters at killing Snake and his great aerial mobility really helps him in the match up, but with everything Snake has against him, I don't see Wario having even the slightest advantage

I haven't seen any recent videos of Bassem vs. Denti, but from what I've seen in this match up, not only is it hard for Wario to outcamp Olimar, but it's also just as hard or maybe even harder to approach him. Pivot grab and U-smash OOS destroy Wario and Olimar isn't one of those characters that struggle with killing either.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Id expect the next one will not be out for at least another few months. The announcement for unity ruleset banning of MK was made about 4-5 months before January. BBR is likely giving it another 4 months or so for a solid 6 months worth of tournaments without meta knight.

Besides, we have gone through 6 tier lists within 4 years. Melee has only had about 9 or so?

 

[Praxis]

Peach vs G&W is -1 for up. praxis has beating ever top G7W player but Vinnie, who he barely lost too.

Just to clarify, I went 1-1 with Vinnie over two sets.

Lucario is -1. Praxis has beaten the **** out of top lucarios.

lmfao

Leon doesn't prance around claiming he's a Diddy slayer unlike Praxis and the Lucario matchup.

I trolololol to get free MM monies

Peach:Lucario is 45:55/-1 IMO. Nothing's changed my opinion on that.

 

[Praxis]

...so like no disrespect, but how the hell does peach beat lucario?!

in theory it shouldn't work. Trouble getting kills, low priority, light weight. These are traits that lucario thrive offa.

She doesn't "beat" Lucario, but Peach as a very surprising level of manueverability advantage on him. She can dance around his hitboxes very well if she understands them. The second jump spaces them perfectly. She's faster and has that pretty jab too, and can edgeguard him very well (not really for gimps, but juggling for damage offstage).

Most people really don't get where his hitboxes are.

Also, if Lucario gets the first kill, Peach loses, GG HF.

 

[z00ted]

She doesn't "beat" Lucario, but Peach as a very surprising level of manueverability advantage on him. She can dance around his hitboxes very well if she understands them. The second jump spaces them perfectly. She's faster and has that pretty jab too, and can edgeguard him very well (not really for gimps, but juggling for damage offstage).

Most people really don't get where his hitboxes are.

Also, if Lucario gets the first kill, Peach loses, GG HF.

This entire post is spot on.
If Lucario gets any sort of kill lead, 90% of the time he will win.

 

[Steam]

yeah... peach's DJ is really lame to deal with while trying to space aerials on her. it's soooo perfect.

 

[Sunnysunny]

How could that .gif be anything but an indicator of trolling?

*shudders.* ToS2 doesn't exist, ToS2 doesn't exist...

Smooth Criminal

Uhhhg I know right? I bought this game on accident thinking it was Tos1 ._. Went threw like half the game going "When the **** do I play as Lloyd!" before I realized it was a totally diffrent game. Eat a **** emile!

Welp.
Nice to know what to do against peach pressure now I guess. Other then not being ******** enough to get stuck in it. I've never played one before, but we do have a pretty decent peach in our area I might have to go up against in tourney one day. Thanks~

 

[Doc King]

Mmm, that depends. Wario might have 55:45 on Oli Pika Snake. He hands down loses to Marth MK, the rest aren't played much in tournament to really know for sure how Wario does vs them. Wario vs IC's is fairly rare and you have disagreement with whether IC's win, Wario win, or neutral. Falco vs Wario is probably even more rare in tournament, especially at a high level. Could argue for either side winning that one.

vs. is really bad for . I think it's his worst matchup.

Are you insane?

Peach vs fox is even.

Peach vs G&W is -1 for up. praxis has beating ever top G7W player but Vinnie, who he barely lost too.

Lucario is -1. Praxis has beaten the **** out of top lucarios.

Peach goes in on olimar, diddy, IC and pika. (Kos-Mos gone whooped every top diddy we played. No diddy beat him.)



Snake is not that serious anymore. Thanks to the help of one dude, snake to me now is a -1 Same with falco.

Wolf I am not gonna speak on as of right now cause I hardly play this character and when I do, I am lost with fighting him. I do alot of basic Peach stuff people gone seen for years. And that makes wolf have just an easy time to win. Fool does not need to try vs me. So like a smart player, I am gonna sit down, play this match up alot, learn what I am getting so much damage from and fix it. Then when I play the match up right and know what to do, I will THEN speak on it. something people like you fail to do before you speak on something you know nothing of.

TL is -1 Only character that shuts her down hard is Marth. Marth is the only character that can just stop her pressure and mix ups no problem when she gets in. G&W has that too with his up-P but i am not eating damge for it. And if I hit his shield to a Jab and he Up-B, I just get pushed back a lil. Which marth It is way more serious. Best aspects Peach as in the game and Marth chooses where I can have it or take it away.

Peach is in the same tier with Wolf and Fox. Peach actually has better match ups with the character above then they do. and unlike them, I don't have to worry about dumb infinites by them or getting chain grabbed to death.

Better yet. out of mid tiers, Peach has the best match up ratios

You call -1 bad match ups? You talk nonsesne about your own main. Why would you step it to someone elses.

So really, no. No have no clue what you are talking about.

Against the important characters, Peach does better then zss/ddd/lucario.



You can't be serious. All the times I hear you get all hyped and giigles when it comes to Peach and wolf and I hear you say this? you gotta be trolling.

ZSS/D3/Lucario is better than Peach. If ur just gonna point out how she has less ****ed up matchups, then I can say for her good matchups that they don't matter because they are only +1 and are close to even, while Dedede has a solid advantage on Wario and Lucario.

 

[z00ted]

Peach has a +2 against Wario without a doubt in my mind.
If anyone saw me vs Yukhoe at Apex, I think they would understand.

I think Peach is his worst matchup, but everyone will probably disagree.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id rather play a character that slightly beats and loses/goes even with most Top characters over one that gets butt ***** by a handful Top characters, but that's just me.

 

[z00ted]

I don't think DDD is more viable than Peach.

He's a really good character for counters. But other than that... he can't ward off the entire cast with MK gone as well as Peach can. There are just too many people maining his bad matchups.

Not to mention his results aren't as consistent as Peach's.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I don't think DDD is more viable than Peach.

He's a really good character for counters. But other than that... he can't ward off the entire cast with MK gone as well as Peach can. There are just too many people maining his bad matchups.

Not to mention his results aren't as consistent as Peach's.

4God is a pretty consistent player. He gets top 4 in GA pretty much everytime. Coney was too when he played at his peak. He's just big and heavy, and probably harder to use since most people know how to get around his stuff. I think he's still viable, and a little more viable than Peach since he can kill and space really well + the chaingrab. I still think he can be a solo character, it's just that you have to put in mad work to learn the matchups and think of creative ways to get around character gimmicks.

 

[Doc King]

Id rather play a character that slightly beats/goes even with most Top characters over one that gets butt ***** by some Top characters, but that's just me.

She slightly losses/goes even with characters. The majority of good characters beat her. I'd rather play a character who can like beat characters solidly and losses to characters solidly than play a character with like all -1 matchups because I will actually make use out of the character with solid matchups and can just pocket characters against my bad matchups.

I think that Dedede vs. Wario is Wario's worst matchup. Unlike Marth and Peach, Dedede has the ability to set up his air release finishers and can combo to that finisher. Dedede also has a nice bair that can like bair wall of pain to an air release. You have like amazing counterpicks with the abuse of slope, walls, halberd and ps1 platforms.

Overall, D3 is just giving out huge damage on this guy while killing this guy early. Along with that, you are also completely outranging this guy and completely wrecking him on the ground and in the air. Now Wario has a couple of strengths which are timing out and edge guarding, however, they are extremely risky. To be able to time out you will have to get damage before D3 does or get a stock lead. D3 and his chaingrab will make it very hard to get the damage along with range. He will also be getting a good killing advantage, while Wario would need to get in good and need to build up damage to kill D3. The other one is actually quite nice, however, with D3's strengths, it would be hard to actually send D3 off stage and his range isn't that great. Bite is another alright strength. It can punish swallow, however D3's bair outranges it.

This matchup I feel is like Dedede vs. Falco, but it's Dedede's advantage. Dedede has a decent strength of planking and air camping, but it would be hard to get the lead and Falco's chaingrab, lazer camping, and great range would make it hard for D3 to win.

I feel like this should be the writeup for the D3 vs. Wario matchup.

 

[Steam]

I like how you didn't even mention that wario is the most mobile character in the game and D3 is the least mobile character... it's in D3's favor but it's also hugely stage dependent.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I wouldnt say Wario is the MOST mobile *cough*Sonic*cough* but he's no doubt top 3 (or 5 at the very worst).

 

[Conviction]

Read what you are saying Doc King.

You in a nutshell just said, I rather play a character with polarizing MUs instead of a character with a more consistent spread.

Both pilots pass flying school. Choose the one you'd trust to give you a safe flight. With seen grades:

Pilot A: 23, 98, 54, 89, 55, 78, 48, 99
Pilot B: 78, 80, 78, 78, 71, 74, 81, 70

From reading what you said, you'd choose Pilot A. GOOD LUCK better hope he is having a good day!

 

[DMG]

Peach has a +2 against Wario without a doubt in my mind.
If anyone saw me vs Yukhoe at Apex, I think they would understand.

I think Peach is his worst matchup, but everyone will probably disagree.

I think MK is his worst MU, but you know what bells and whistles that sets off in the non Wario headquarters.

Marth is also hands down worse for Wario than Peach. There's no possible way Peach does better than Marth can. In that MU, Marth is basically a superior clone to Peach for what you need to do to win the MU.

I like how you didn't even mention that wario is the most mobile character in the game and D3 is the least mobile character... it's in D3's favor but it's also hugely stage dependent.

Yeah, except there's no Game 1 stage that favors Wario besides arguably BF (since you can run around his girthy self)

 

[Cassio]

I think Pikachu is Warios worst MU. Eh chaingrabs and doesnt afraid of anything.

 

[Doc King]

I like how you didn't even mention that wario is the most mobile character in the game and D3 is the least mobile character... it's in D3's favor but it's also hugely stage dependent.

Well timing out is part of speed. D3 isn't the worst and Wario isn't the best, but Wario definitely has a speed advantage. Only thing though is that he can't really make any use out of it because D3 will just outrange him with bair and grabs and will most likely get the advantage (Which the only main strength of Wario's speed is to time him out).

Pretty much Wario get wrecked by every stage. Although FD and BF are not like one grab = slope or other stage type infinite (However still good for D3). SV is a good stage for Wario like seige is good for D3 vs. Diddy. Only problem is that it's an autoban like seige is an autoban for D3 vs. Diddy. Making that stage useless for Wario.

 

[DMG]

I think Pikachu is Warios worst MU. Eh chaingrabs and doesnt afraid of anything.

AFRAID OF WAFT KISS THE DECK

No gusta

 

[Cassio]

 

[Doc King]

Read what you are saying Doc King.

You in a nutshell just said, I rather play a character with polarizing MUs instead of a character with a more consistent spread.

Both pilots pass flying school. Choose the one you'd trust to give you a safe flight. With seen grades:

Pilot A: 23, 98, 54, 89, 55, 78, 48, 99
Pilot B: 78, 80, 78, 78, 71, 74, 81, 70

From reading what you said, you'd choose Pilot A. GOOD LUCK better hope he is having a good day!

Peach's grades would be like a bunch of D's with a couple of F's and with a couple of C's and B's. Not a bunch of C's and a couple of B's.

Also, theres something in this game called pocketing and changing characters.

I think Pikachu is Warios worst MU. Eh chaingrabs and doesnt afraid of anything.

If you're referring to the platform zero death, can you do anything to chain Wario to there like D3 can do with his slope infinites on Halberd and Frigate, edge infinites on ps1 and halberd, and air release on BF?

 

[Conviction]

Peach's grades would be like a bunch of D's with a couple of F's and with a couple of C's and B's. Not a bunch of C's and a couple of B's.

Also, theres something in this game called pocketing and changing characters.

Pause.

No.

Peach's Match-up does not resemble one of a low-tier. Stop the nonsense. Mid-tier mid-results mid grades. DERP

Obv there's no correlation though.

We out.