Official BBR Tier List v6

[Ishiey]

The only ones that deserve to seperate themselves from pika imo are snake, diddy, olimar, and ICs with a simple stagelist. People harp on olimar vs pika, but its probably not as bad as ICs (which is probably pikas worst MU).

Idk, the main reason I put Olimar above is because of results, and Marth because of something resembling theorycraft lol. I can agree with that though.

Still wondering why Yoshi is still considered that low even though he outplaces most mid tiers, has lots of great rep, and has no MUs harder than a -2.

The whole tier of borderline viable, I'd count as not viable. Most of those characters, it's the opponent not abusing their massive flaws than the character actually being viable imo. Even Ike is pushing it, but it's definitely true for Earthbound, Yoshi, and Luigi. PT and Shiek are probably the exceptions, PT because of Squirtle being man mode and Shiek because she has a lot of potential when played extremely technical.

^ This, basically... don't know what else to say. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't, really :/

EDIT @ Gull: I second PT lol, have for quite some time, and getting back into him more as of late. IMO he falls into the category of characters that do well until you learn how to play against them. So basically, yeah I agree lol, hence the tier placement.

 

[BSP]

Do ICs deserve to be on diddy/snake/olimar level?

 

[Ishiey]

Depending on the CPs available, but either way their usage as a co-main has brought many players great success so I think it's justified enough.

 

[Doc King]

Doesn't lack the tourney results compared to those characters?

 

[Ishiey]

Not quite, or at least not from a money standpoint according to John#s' chart from last year.

 

[infiniteV115]

Solo ICs definitely lack results, and can't be too high on the list with the Unity Ruleset (Brinstar and RC **** them over pretty bad)

 

[DeLux]

It really depends how you define Solo ICs to be honest as well

 

[Chuee]

Im not saying yoshi is great, im just saying he IS viable, and should be classed as viable. He's not borderline viable, he's just plain viable.

Yoshi isn't viable unless you consider over half the cast viable.

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, I remember DeLux being kinda alsdkmvlsdfvkm about how ICs will always lose on their opponent's CP under Unity provided their opponent is competent in the MU. But when you have such solid neutrals and CPs yourself, idk, ICs are still a top-tier threat as a co-main for sure. Countering Olimar, Falco, and debatably Pikachu with no disadvantageous MU with the rest of the competitive tier is quite nice as well.

 

[DeLux]

If I had to place a Solo-IC, they'd be in the middle to lower part of your "viable" group.

 

[DMG]

Cuz, you know, Polt/Delta each having multiple Top 16 placings in Nationals going straight Yoshi obviously is non viable.

Ally Captain Falcon

 

[Doc King]

Yoshi isn't viable unless you consider over half the cast viable.

Chuee>Z'zgashi

 

[Cassio]

Idk, the main reason I put Olimar above is because of results, and Marth because of something resembling theorycraft lol. I can agree with that though.

Yeah Olimar is a beast. I was talking to the people earlier that brought up pika-oli.

(not to anyone in particular) Pikachu-ICs is reasonable as are his other disadvantages, but its one of the three non-negotiably not even MUs he has (ICs, Oli, Diddy). Thats really not bad when you consider the cast as a whole, what makes it bad is that those are also three of the top 5 characters in the game and ones youre likely to see at the end of a bracket. Its fortunate in that pikachu is likely at the tail-end of solo-viability, but as a result he also has the most difficult path.

Actually Marth is maybe solo-viable. His biggest problem is his entire bracket (or maybe a couple rounds in when about 50-60% of the entrants are eliminated) is one giant uphill climb, as opposed to just the end. Falcos hard to judge. He can reasonably avoid his bad MUs, but if he runs into them they wouldnt be considered reasonable.

 

[Luigi player]

Ally Captain Falcon

I dont think Ally went solo Falcon at any national... [ talking about normal singles ofc ]

 

[Dabuz]

Boredom, so I decided to make one of those personal tier list things in hopes that it'll stir up some discussion. Note that I'm not ordering characters within tiers, because that takes too much effort.


METAKNIGHT:
Well, duh.


COMPETITIVE:
All of these characters are pretty damn intimidating at high level play imo, and they all have great results to back it up. Only two outliers are Marth and maybe ICs (solo-main argument, but either way their value as a CP/secondary character is ridiculous). Marth at top-level play is freakin' horrifying, holy crap. And to be completely honest, there's a severe lack of Marths at this level. Once Marth gets to that top level, his crazy safety, ability to get low% kills with tippers, offstage harassment, and follow-up potential definitely place him in this tier. Not to mention his extremely solid MU spread. Also, none of the characters in this tier have anything worse than a -1 on the MU chart except for Falco.


I don't see how either of these characters are on the same level as the above group, but at the same time they're definitely above the tier below them. I might be inclined to move Pikachu up if there were more top-level Pikachu mains (and unfortunately the top doesn't even go solo-Pika :/), but even from a tools-oriented standpoint I don't see him at the same level as the tier above. Wario... eh, more or less the same thing as Pika, except with even less dedicated mains at a high level. Still a clear cut above the tier below, but I don't think they quite belong with the tier above.


VIABLE:
I don't think there's a particularly large gap between these characters and the tier below tbh, or at least there's a larger gap with the bottom of top. Anyways, cue the start of viable characters. You can use them in tournament to pretty good success, even at top level, but you're going to have to put in a lot more work to get there.


The lower part of the current high-tier plus the better part of the current mid-tier, basically. ROB might arguably be in here too. Quite capable characters, few of which have really broken out hardcore as of late. Not really at the same threat level as the group above, but still a bit above the lower part of "viable" for sure.


The meh part of mid-tier. Not bad, but they don't have quite the results or niche MUs to boast about like the tier above. ROB might be an exception. DK is a lot easier once you figure him out and choose to do what you need to do imo. Sonic, idk, he's a close cut and will almost always be fighting uphill battles in tournament, but he has the tools to make it through most of those MUs provided you outplay your opponent by a not-ridiculous margin. I felt it was only fair to put Ike in here because of results, but I really don't know... he's capable, but clearly limited. Anyways, imo this group and the one below are the two that will be most likely to change around, provided the metagames of these characters develop.


BORDERLINE VIABLE:
The lower part of mid. Kinda capable characters, I guess, but you're not going to see them do much. A bunch of them could maybe eventually break into the group above, who knows. In a sense, these are the characters that get as far as they do because of "gimmicky" stuff, although they still have their fair share of solid tools. Sheilda suffers from next to no rep (), Yoshi from a limiting shield, Ness and Lucas (bumped up due to results) from a few death MUs and exploitable mechanics (as well as an extremely strong reliance on "gimmicks" in Lucas' case imo), Sheik is a slightly worse Sheilda with the same rep issue, Luigi has the horrendous problem of getting in, and PT, holy crap, PT's metagame is so underdeveloped it makes me cry. Not to mention there's only one PT player that gets noticed, and PT's basically his secondary at this point :/

NOT VIABLE:
As far as I'm concerned, all of these characters are essentially negligible. There's definitely a decent gap between the top and bottom of this tier, but either way you're not going to see any of them pose a reasonable threat in tournament at high levels. A severe lack of results and mediocre-at-best tools define this category. If you can recall any of these characters doing something worthwhile in the past year or so, please let me know, because I honestly can't remember anything :/


Thoughts?

I say borderline viable is the GW row. Everyone past that is completely unviable. (Assuming MK legal)

 

[DMG]

Ocean laughs at you

So do Yoshi mains apparently

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach doesn't really have any great matchups and lacks power and is kind of slow for a pretty weak character.

You know, I come here all the time and say in my head. "why do people in this community also speak about stuff they know nothing about? Do people love coming off as idiots?

 

[Doc King]

You know, I come here all the time and say in my head. "why do people in this community also speak about stuff they know nothing about? Do people love coming off as idiots?

I do know what I'm talking about. has 2 good matchups against the good characters, which are and . Although, she has poor matchups against , , , , , , and . She also has a complete disadvantage against and gets wrecked badly by . Overall, the majority of her good character and mid tier matchups are pretty disadvantaging.

What I really mean by matchups being bad is meaning not as good as D3/ZSS/Lucario.

I think she's high tier in the mk banned tier list and middle tier in the mk legal tier list.

 

[BMC]

I do know what I'm talking about. has 2 good matchups against the good characters, which are and . Although, she has poor matchups against , , , , , , and . She also has a complete disadvantage against and gets wrecked badly by . Overall, the majority of her good character and mid tier matchups are pretty disadvantaging.

What I really mean by matchups being bad is meaning not as good as D3/ZSS/Lucario.

I think she's high tier in the mk banned tier list and middle tier in the mk legal tier list.

No, you don't. There is a difference between looking at a matchup chart and actually maining, and investing alot of time into a character. Most Peach mains, from what I've seen, don't fully agree with this MU chart. All of those matchups that you described as "poor" are -1 at worst for her(excluding Falco, he is a -2.) Most Peach mains have agreed on GW being even as well.

My main point is, don't assume you know about a character when you haven't put any time into them yourself.

 

[Steam]

lol Doc King, honestly solo peach is better than solo D3... a versatile character like peach can deal with bad matchups a lot better than simple ones like D3. and D3 has some **** matchups. D3 probably isn't even viable as a solo character because of how easy it is to CP him... he's a good secondary though.

and yeah don't always trust the MU chart, Marth is still horribly overrated on it... Lucario is overrated... MK is underrated etc.

 

[infiniteV115]

stuff

You should start insulting Doc King.

That way people can come in randomly and make puns about getting burned by Steam

 

[Steam]

You should start insulting Doc King.

That way people can come in randomly and make puns about getting burned by Steam

maybe if I insult him enough he'll need to go blow off some steam

 

[infiniteV115]

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Nice one

 

[ChocoNaner]

I'ma evaporape steam if he doesn't stop being a noob :I

o ho ho yes i did ichu:

 

[Doc King]

lol Doc King, honestly solo peach is better than solo D3... a versatile character like peach can deal with bad matchups a lot better than simple ones like D3. and D3 has some **** matchups. D3 probably isn't even viable as a solo character because of how easy it is to CP him... he's a good secondary though.

and yeah don't always trust the MU chart, Marth is still horribly overrated on it... Lucario is overrated... MK is underrated etc.

I would think a solo Dedede would be better because you get like more good matchups while they both get horrible matchups. You're making it sound like Fox, Wolf, and Falco are unviable because they got hard counters. You're also ignoring the fact that Peach actually gets hard countered. Big ****ing deal if Peach has less ****ed up negatives. You can like main D3 with pocket characters pretty well. At least, Dedede would be getting more use out of certain matchups (Peach doesn't have a solid advantage while D3 does). There's nothing wrong with pocketing and using more than one character. I mean look where Falco is at? He has like 2 hard *** matchups, but yet still does well because he does great in other matchups. I admit solo maining D3 would be pretty hard, but it doesn't really matter because people can just pocket and change characters. You can go Dedede against Snake (Surprising since he's like 3rd best), Marth (Doesn't have many bad matchups, Wario (Matchup is like super easy, especially with stage abusing. Just ban sv), and Lucario.

D3 and Peach have it pretty much the same, but D3 has more and better good matchups and Peach has less (Only in negative amount) painful matchups. The use of pocketing and secondarying would make D3 more viable.

 

[Coney]

Honestly, I would put DDD in the unviable category, and here's why:

Out of Ishy's list, DDD has a bad matchup with 6 of the 9 characters above him. It also stands to reason that these characters will be the most popular, since they're, well, the best. While it's not impossible that a DDD will be unable to overcome the -2 (Diddy, Falco, Olimar) and -3 (MK, ICs) matchups, it's very, very difficult to do so at any consistent level. And consistency, really, should be a pretty big determinant of whether a character is viable or not.

I don't think it's bad for him to be that high on the tier list, because he mangles so many below him. But in a question not of character comparison, but of pure viability in the metagame, he's actually much lower than that, I think.

 

[Doc King]

Honestly, I would put DDD in the unviable category, and here's why:

Out of Ishy's list, DDD has a bad matchup with 6 of the 9 characters above him. It also stands to reason that these characters will be the most popular, since they're, well, the best. While it's not impossible that a DDD will be unable to overcome the -2 (Diddy, Falco, Olimar) and -3 (MK, ICs) matchups, it's very, very difficult to do so at any consistent level. And consistency, really, should be a pretty big determinant of whether a character is viable or not.

I don't think it's bad for him to be that high on the tier list, because he mangles so many below him. But in a question not of character comparison, but of pure viability in the metagame, he's actually much lower than that, I think.

I think should be a semi viable character, as in he's viable but needs a pocket character or is only good as a secondary. I would agree though that those hard *** matchups against Oli, Falco, Diddy, MK, Pika, and Climbers will make a huge threat as a main.

Although, what will really makes him semi viable is Wario, Snake, Marth, and Lucario. Wario is a really good one because it is a super easy matchup for Dedede. Wario gets wrecked by every chaingrab, his bair, stage stuff (Like wall infinites, slope infinites (Mainly Halberd and Frigate), halberd edge infinite, ps1 edge infinite when on a special stage, etc. And which gives him great cps), and air release for early kills (SV is autoban). You can just give massive damage and kill him off very early. Wario also only has 4 bad matchups. Snake and Marth are pretty even, but slightly in D3's favor. But, not many characters really beat these guys, so it's a pretty decent gift. Lucario, it just gives you another pretty easy matchup.

We should really have it so it's the top tiers that are viable, the high tiers that are semiviable, the mid tiers which are hardly viable (Peach, Fox, and Wolf count as high tiers), and the low tiers which are garbage.

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah... in all honesty, "viable" isn't really that viable lol. Assuming MK legal, he's by far the most dominating force in the metagame (at least here in the US), so everyone that goes worse than -1 with him is out, leaving us with the following characters for solo-main viability:



Fox and Wolf have at least one -3 and one -2 in this category, so they're basically not viable either at top levels where the metagame is limited to primarily these characters.



Of the following, ICs aren't really viable due to the stage CP argument, and then ZSS loses viability because she has no advantageous MUs left (mostly -1s):



At this point, we have our list of viable characters (according to the MU chart, kinda, idk):

MK - beats everyone lol, obvious first
Marth - beats Pikachu, Olimar, and Snake, total +1
Pikachu - beats Falco and Snake, total 0
Diddy - beats Marth and Pikachu, total 0
Olimar - beats Pikachu and Snake, total 0
Falco - beats Olimar, total -3
Snake - beats Diddy, total -3


So overall solo-main viability kinda looks like:


> >
>
:everyone else:

Of course, I completely bull****ted this whole thing lol. Just a possible interpretation of viability. Man, I really will do whatever I can to procrastinate on hw

 

[Dabuz]

I have to disagree about the ICs part. Their two horrible stages are RC and brinstar, which are now banned pretty commonly in mk legal environments. After that they have a few bad stages such as halberd and delfino, but they are DEFINITELY viable solo mains. Vinnie pretty much solo mains ICs now, I rarely see his G&W or other characters in tourney.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I do know what I'm talking about. has 2 good matchups against the good characters, which are and . Although, she has poor matchups against , , , , , , and . She also has a complete disadvantage against and gets wrecked badly by . Overall, the majority of her good character and mid tier matchups are pretty disadvantaging.

What I really mean by matchups being bad is meaning not as good as D3/ZSS/Lucario.

I think she's high tier in the mk banned tier list and middle tier in the mk legal tier list.

is only +1 vs . I wouldn't call that a poor matchup for her. +1 is like 45-55/55-45.

 

[Dabuz]

Also, why does no one say Lucario is viable? IIRC he has a good MU spread.

 

[Ishiey]

I have to disagree about the ICs part. Their two horrible stages are RC and brinstar, which are now banned pretty commonly in mk legal environments. After that they have a few bad stages such as halberd and delfino, but they are DEFINITELY viable solo mains. Vinnie pretty much solo mains ICs now, I rarely see his G&W or other characters in tourney.

Fair enough, I'll do the same thing with ICs back in lol, and by extension ZSS:

MK - beats everyone lol, obvious first
ICs - beats Olimar, Falco, and Diddy, total +4
Marth - beats Pikachu, Olimar, and Snake, total +1
Diddy - beats Marth and Pikachu, total 0
Pikachu - beats Falco and Snake, total -1
Olimar - beats Pikachu and Snake, total -2
Snake - beats Diddy, total -3
Falco - beats Olimar, total -5
ZSS - beats ICs, total -5.
Wario (because I can) - beats no one, goes -2 with MK but has -3 total against the above list.


So another bs verall solo-main viability thing:






:everyone else:

Also, why does no one say Lucario is viable? IIRC he has a good MU spread.

According to the chart, he goes -2 with MK, +1 with Pika, 0 with ICs, Falco, and ZSS, and -1 with everyone else in that list. Doable imo, but quite uphill and not really what you'd want from a truly viable character :/

 

[Sunnysunny]

Cus
ya know.
Metaknight. =w=

Its just a -2, but a -2 to against him of all characters can make a break a characters viability by alot. Its hard to safely get anything going against him. Lucario relies on his ability to bait character into taking huge damage. but its hard to safely pressure metaknight shield at all. Up-b's so rediculous good against us.
Were also very vulnerable to gimp. Early killls really hurt lucario. It feels like one of those match ups where you need to take the first stock.

 

[DMG]

Mmm, that depends. Wario might have 55:45 on Oli Pika Snake. He hands down loses to Marth MK, the rest aren't played much in tournament to really know for sure how Wario does vs them. Wario vs IC's is fairly rare and you have disagreement with whether IC's win, Wario win, or neutral. Falco vs Wario is probably even more rare in tournament, especially at a high level. Could argue for either side winning that one.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I do know what I'm talking about. has 2 good matchups against the good characters, which are and . Although, she has poor matchups against , , , , , , and . She also has a complete disadvantage against and gets wrecked badly by . Overall, the majority of her good character and mid tier matchups are pretty disadvantaging.

What I really mean by matchups being bad is meaning not as good as D3/ZSS/Lucario.

I think she's high tier in the mk banned tier list and middle tier in the mk legal tier list.

Are you insane?

Peach vs fox is even.

Peach vs G&W is -1 for up. praxis has beating ever top G7W player but Vinnie, who he barely lost too.

Lucario is -1. Praxis has beaten the **** out of top lucarios.

Peach goes in on olimar, diddy, IC and pika. (Kos-Mos gone whooped every top diddy we played. No diddy beat him.)



Snake is not that serious anymore. Thanks to the help of one dude, snake to me now is a -1 Same with falco.

Wolf I am not gonna speak on as of right now cause I hardly play this character and when I do, I am lost with fighting him. I do alot of basic Peach stuff people gone seen for years. And that makes wolf have just an easy time to win. Fool does not need to try vs me. So like a smart player, I am gonna sit down, play this match up alot, learn what I am getting so much damage from and fix it. Then when I play the match up right and know what to do, I will THEN speak on it. something people like you fail to do before you speak on something you know nothing of.

TL is -1 Only character that shuts her down hard is Marth. Marth is the only character that can just stop her pressure and mix ups no problem when she gets in. G&W has that too with his up-P but i am not eating damge for it. And if I hit his shield to a Jab and he Up-B, I just get pushed back a lil. Which marth It is way more serious. Best aspects Peach as in the game and Marth chooses where I can have it or take it away.

Peach is in the same tier with Wolf and Fox. Peach actually has better match ups with the character above then they do. and unlike them, I don't have to worry about dumb infinites by them or getting chain grabbed to death.

Better yet. out of mid tiers, Peach has the best match up ratios

You call -1 bad match ups? You talk nonsesne about your own main. Why would you step it to someone elses.

So really, no. No have no clue what you are talking about.

Against the important characters, Peach does better then zss/ddd/lucario.

is only +1 vs . I wouldn't call that a poor matchup for her. +1 is like 45-55/55-45.

You can't be serious. All the times I hear you get all hyped and giigles when it comes to Peach and wolf and I hear you say this? you gotta be trolling.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Mmm, that depends. Wario might have 55:45 on Oli Pika Snake. He hands down loses to Marth MK, the rest aren't played much in tournament to really know for sure how Wario does vs them. Wario vs IC's is fairly rare and you have disagreement with whether IC's win, Wario win, or neutral. Falco vs Wario is probably even more rare in tournament, especially at a high level. Could argue for either side winning that one.

Wario goes even against Oli and Snake. Snake destroys Wario with grab releases and Oli camps Wario better than any other character

 

[Ishiey]

@ DMG: Yeah, I honestly know very little about Wario's MUs because I've seen so little of him at top-level play compared to all the other "competitive" characters :/

@ Dark Peach: I'm down if you ever want to work on the Peach/Wolf MU ;D

 

[Dark.Pch]

@ DMG: Yeah, I honestly know very little about Wario's MUs because I've seen so little of him at top-level play compared to all the other "competitive" characters :/

@ Dark Peach: I'm down if you ever want to work on the Peach/Wolf MU ;D

OMG dude yes. I would love you for that. Once it get this down, its over.

 

[Steam]

Also, why does no one say Lucario is viable? IIRC he has a good MU spread.

IMO his matchup spread is way too good for him on the chart.

he should be -2 with D3, snake, and fox. and possibly -3 with MK.

though marth should be even and maybe GW too.

@dark.pch- didn't some top lucario **** on him at some national? I also don't know of him beating any trelabugs... but yeah the matchup is +1 for luc.

 

[z00ted]

Dark Pch, why are you bringing Praxis into this? Matchups change a lot over time.
Btw, last time he played a top level Lucario (Trela) he lost solidly.