Official BBR Tier List v6

[Seagull Joe]

I'd agree with Pikachu right afterwords, but I feel Fox > Marth. Fox can run away from many top characters and laser, which FORCES approaches. Fox also has good air mixups, with fast fall air dodges into shield or up tilt, mixed with drill, mixed with shinestalls, means it is very hard to "trap" him. Marth is easier to trap and a lot of times you can have a 50% chance of covering his landing with something like powershield -> down smash depending on what you think he can do. It's hard to even 50/50 vs Fox because Fox has much more mixup options, which may not seem like much at first, but at top level play it means you have a counter mixup to any situation the enemy throws at you based on their habits (example Rain likes to sit in shield and block an attack, while Otori likes to overspace Uair, and other MKs like to go for shuttle loop right away, etc.)

Marth on the other hand suffers the weakness of being FORCED to approach in many matchups, because of no projectile and blocking being good against him.

This may seem small, but I honestly feel Fox is a better character, and the only thing that really holds him back is stupid dumb things like Pikachu/Sheik? 0-deathing him. Without that, I think Fox is clearly the better character, and very underrated in America.

I think > cause has no death matchups. He's very well rounded and has reliably safe options on shield. Their results are similar (Mikehaze, Neo, Kadaj, etc. vs TKD, Zeton, Trevonte), but I see more mains going alts to cover a ton of bad matchups. is bad vs , , and has a TON of -1 matchups like himself, , , , , , and .

has a clear less amount of bad matchups. CP'ing isn't hard, but people just don't for some reason (Probably because a lot of mains just go ).

actually has a better spread then .

That's not stopping Falco from being on top, though (both Fox and Falco share pretty much the same bad match ups). I feel that Fox is a great character, but has way too many slight disadvantages/even match ups. he has a slight disadvantage against Olimar, loses to ICs and has a slight disadvantage against Diddy and Snake. Not too sure about Falco. The match up seems even, though.

Agree with Jebus.

 

[PSI Nexus]

This may seem small, but I honestly feel Fox is a better character, and the only thing that really holds him back is stupid dumb things like Pikachu/Sheik? 0-deathing him. Without that, I think Fox is clearly the better character, and very underrated in America.

I think the same could be said for Wolf as well. The Space Animals are turning out to be better than expected. Although, Falco always seems to be hanging by a thread: his tournament results, representation, and simply the number of characters doesn't match his tier list placing.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think the same could be said for Wolf as well. The Space Animals are turning out to be better than expect. Although, Falco always seems to be hanging by a thread: his tournament results, representation, and simply the number of characters doesn't match his tier list placing.

has less bad matchups and his moveset is ultimately safer and better then /.

Space animals are definitely top 15 in the game. and should always be next to each other in my opinion. And should be top 7 at least.

and could be above /. is currently 16th and is 15th, but I feel each of them could only move up if those two I mentioned move below them.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Falco, Fox and Wolf should all be in separate tiers. Falco should be a tier or two above Fox and Fox should be a tier above Wolf

 

[Doc King]

Depends on the ruleset for Jason. I agree with you except I think should be above based on tourney performances. also loses to in the head to head, which should matter somewhat.

In my opinion (Which is close to Jason's lol):
S TIER:
1.

A TIER:
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

B TIER:
7.
8/9. /

I think that should be A Tier. He has a very good matchup spread and has some good tools, range, and legit non DIable combos and moves.

That's not stopping Falco from being on top, though (both Fox and Falco share pretty much the same bad match ups). I feel that Fox is a great character, but has way too many slight disadvantages/even match ups. he has a slight disadvantage against Olimar, loses to ICs and has a slight disadvantage against Diddy and Snake. Not too sure about Falco. The match up seems even, though.

I actually agree with this. only has like a couple of -2's while has a few -3 matchups. 's options are also better like chaingrab, dacus, side b, recovery (Like is actually good at edge guarding ), and lazers.

Falco, Fox and Wolf should all be in separate tiers. Falco should be a tier or two above Fox and Fox should be a tier above Wolf

and should be in the same tier near each other.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I think Peach, Fox, Wolf, and Gdubs are all in the same tier. I think that with Brinstar and RC Gdubs is the bottom of the next highest tier though.

 

[Conviction]

Fox has a better recovery than Falco...

 

[zmx]

Doesn't like the climbers counter Olimar more than Pika counters snake? Because the chart says -2 for Olimar and -1 for Snake.

I also see that in John#'s money chart that Snake has been getting the most money and a noticable gap between the others with Diddy.

Although, Olimar is really good in this game. I think Oli going above Snake is a little too high for him.

No they don't. According to top icys/Oli players the MU is now considered even.

Pikachu vs Snake on the other hand is definitely in Pika's favor by a lot. Snake also loses to characters like Olimar(which seems to have become a darn popular character lately), and DDD (which many people like to secondary).

 

[Kuro~]

Lol i disagree about pika vs snake. -1 when done right imo. And i still think oli is even or -1. So do a few other top snakes. Most of the snakes(and dededes) felt dedede ranged from 0 to -1. Only a few thought -2...


Fox should be even with diddy and/or snake imo.

But diddy doesn't and hasn't happened enough to tell.

Fox vs marth is close enough that the better player will win.

 

[Fuujin]

So can we discuss how Lucas has better and more consistent results than Sheik, Luigi, Pokeman Trainer and Pit BUT he's still considered low tier?

 

[Doc King]

Fox has a better recovery than Falco...

I don't know about other matchups, but for the Dedede matchup, Falco recovers much better than Fox unless D3 is planking but planking is banned because of the ledge grab limit.

No they don't. According to top icys/Oli players the MU is now considered even.

Pikachu vs Snake on the other hand is definitely in Pika's favor by a lot. Snake also loses to characters like Olimar(which seems to have become a darn popular character lately), and DDD (which many people like to secondary).

Well climbers vs. Olimar being even makes sense because Olimar has the best keep away game. I'm actually starting to think that Olimar is like the best character right now along with climbers.

Lol i disagree about pika vs snake. -1 when done right imo. And i still think oli is even or -1. So do a few other top snakes. Most of the snakes(and dededes) felt dedede ranged from 0 to -1. Only a few thought -2...


Fox should be even with diddy and/or snake imo.

But diddy doesn't and hasn't happened enough to tell.

Fox vs marth is close enough that the better player will win.

Dedede vs. Snake is pretty much even, but Dedede gets the slight advantage cause of counterpicks like Halberd with the chaingrab infinite and other ridiculous stages.

So can we discuss how Lucas has better and more consistent results than Sheik, Luigi, Pokeman Trainer and Pit BUT he's still considered low tier?

Nah, I'd rather talk about characters that matter than characters that don't matter.

I think that the middle tier is way too big and the low mids should move down to low tier and some low tiers move down to bottom tier. Also, have some top mids move up to high tier. I think the mid tiers should be Pit, Rob, Kirby, DK, Sonic, and Ike.

 

[Fuujin]

Well climbers vs. Olimar being even makes sense because Olimar has the best keep away game.

Toon Link tho...

 

[Conviction]

When I die from DDD, it's not from a gimp

 

[Doc King]

Toon Link tho...

Toon Link is not that great at keep away. His projectiles are too slow and aren't huge range for such small hurtbox.

When I die from DDD, it's not from a gimp

Doesn't like Fox rely a lot on his fair? Dedede can just jump and bair it to punish it.

 

[Dabuz]

Sorry guys, but ics/ olis is not even. -1 for oli at best

 

[Conviction]

Doesn't like Fox rely a lot on his fair? Dedede can just jump and bair it to punish it.

Yeah, but look Fair gives Fox a boost hoirzontal air mobility. DDD's air mobility isn't that great. Fox just needs to move back. Second, when is Fox going to be put below the ledge by DDD, there is no move that should be DI'd down and there isn't a move that naturally has a strong downward angle from DDD or at least my experience that will put me in such an angle.

So nah, Fox shouldn't be getting gimped a lot.

EDIT: That doesn't mean it can't happen though.

 

[Fuujin]

Toon Link is not that great at keep away. His projectiles are too slow and aren't huge range for such small hurtbox.

Not sure if serious...

 

[Dabuz]

Im surprised it wasn't mentioned that EVERY projectile TL has can be PSed easily.

 

[Doc King]

Yeah, but look Fair gives Fox a boost hoirzontal air mobility. DDD's air mobility isn't that great. Fox just needs to move back. Second, when is Fox going to be put below the ledge by DDD, there is no move that should be DI'd down and there isn't a move that naturally has a strong downward angle from DDD or at least my experience that will put me in such an angle.

So nah, Fox shouldn't be getting gimped a lot.

EDIT: That doesn't mean it can't happen though.

Doesn't like air releasing put Fox down and down throw and grab release. Also some stuff like bair (2nd hitbox) could put Fox in these situations. Fox falls very fast so like a small hit can put fox downward. Also, if u move back, you will have to use ur predictable recoveries and D3 can easily read it and punish it.

Not sure if serious...

I am serious. Why do you think Olimar is so freaking hard for D3 while Toon Link is even?

Im surprised it wasn't mentioned that EVERY projectile TL has can be PSed easily.

Fuujin, read this. Also, you can regrab the bombs and Olimar can punish shields. TL's projectiles are just too slow and can be easily read compared to Olimar.

 

[Conviction]

Doesn't like air releasing put Fox down and down throw and grab release. Also some stuff like bair (2nd hitbox) could put Fox in these situations. Fox falls very fast so like a small hit can put fox downward. Also, if u move back, you will have to use ur predictable recoveries and D3 can easily read it and punish it.

Predictable recoveries...?

• Shine***************************
• Fair

Those are the two things that make it not predictable. I'm above the ledge. I shine, you try to attack, I make it on stage.

Or I just Fair so I'm recovering high and just FF AD back on stage.

Grab release doesn't send Fox that far.

Oh fun fact, if you shine out of hitstun it gives you a vertical jump.

So, what Foxes have you played?

 

[Fuujin]

Idt you guys have played a good TL with this mentality....
It's not as simple as "PS all of TL projectiles, catch his bombs and he's free".
No player is good enough to constantly power shield all of his projectiles.

Toon Link has arguably the best(or at least 2nd best) keep away game out of the entire roster.

Also Iblis this whole Dedede Vs Fox discussion should probly be in the MU thread...

 

[Conviction]

LOL you have a point, but I think I've already been through this with him.

 

[Fuujin]

I think everyone has been through a Dedede VS _____ at some point with Doc King.
Which is why I propose we change the subject to Lucas totally not being low tier.

 

[| Big D |]

DDD should be higher, he goes even with Diddy and people underestimate him as they see him as all shield grab, when he has great maneuverability through the air vertically with a grait fair/bair which frametraps.

 

[Dabuz]

Idt you guys have played a good TL with this mentality....
It's not as simple as "PS all of TL projectiles, catch his bombs and he's free".
No player is good enough to constantly power shield all of his projectiles.

Toon Link has arguably the best(or at least 2nd best) keep away game out of the entire roster.

I agree with the first part, disagree with second. Toon link can space safely with projectiles and wait for an opponents mistake, but he can't make his own openings against top level players with good timing. His keep away game is only good until he is forced to the ledge, then he has NO good options.


Toon link's keep away game is worse than: Falco, olimar, snake, mk, diddy, maybe pit

 

[Conviction]

Wtf is up with your sig?? Especially the left side LOL

 

[Doc King]

Predictable recoveries...?

• Shine***************************
• Fair

Those are the two things that make it not predictable. I'm above the ledge. I shine, you try to attack, I make it on stage.

Or I just Fair so I'm recovering high and just FF AD back on stage.

Grab release doesn't send Fox that far.

Oh fun fact, if you shine out of hitstun it gives you a vertical jump.

So, what Foxes have you played?

One day on ladder, I've played this Fox guy and he actually agreed with me that D3 is actually good at edge guarding Fox.

Well if you keep shining, you have to eventually use ur easily punishable side b or up b and D3 can interrupt Fox's fair in the air or with a waddle dee or something.

I think Falco is better at recovering in the matchup because his side b is less predictable.

I think everyone has been through a Dedede VS _____ at some point with Doc King.
Which is why I propose we change the subject to Lucas totally not being low tier.

Lucas can't be middle tier. He gets his *** whooped by DK, Sheik, and Sheilda.

Ness, Luigi, and PT should be low tiers.

I'm actually getting sick of Dedede vs. arguments. It just seems like so much fanboying (Myself included) and it never gets anywhere. It just makes this site look stupid and that's why I'm pretty much done with talking about them.

DDD should be higher, he goes even with Diddy and people underestimate him as they see him as all shield grab, when he has great maneuverability through the air vertically with a grait fair/bair which frametraps.

Dedede gets his *** whooped by Diddy. Chaingrab don't mean **** if you can't do ****ing nothing with the bananas. Dedede's poor speed is just such a huge pain for him.

Although I do find him underrated. He does do great vs. Wario and his broken chaingrabs and infinites on him. He also does alright on Snake, Marth, and Lucario.

The main problem though is that he has painful matchups against Olimar, Climbers, and Diddy and they're very commen in tourney. He's also pretty bad against Falco and Pika (But they're aren't painful).

I find him high tier. He has some good matchups and viability, but he has some poor matchups and unviability. (Against Top and high tiers)

 

[Dabuz]

Wtf is up with your sig?? Especially the left side LOL

Ah, you like the awesomeness of it? Its from the anime "Highschool DxD"

 

[Conviction]

Ah, you like the awesomeness of it? Its from the anime "Highschool DxD"

Hmmm...I might be...

One day on ladder, I've played this Fox guy and he actually agreed with me that D3 is actually good at edge guarding Fox.

Well if you keep shining, you have to eventually use ur easily punishable side b or up b and D3 can interrupt Fox's fair in the air or with a waddle dee or something.

I think Falco is better at recovering in the matchup because his side b is less predictable.

So a wifi Fox...

and no, waddle dee doesn't beat fair. LOL if it was that easy I wouldn't bother recovering.

You are wrong and refuse to understand why you are wrong LOL the only times side B and Up B are predictable are when

1) Fox has no double jump
2) Is FAR below stage

I'll let you continue to believe what you believe though as it won't affect me and the DDDs I play won't magically start gimping me with...Waddle Dee............

 

[Fuujin]

They make animu characters that booty dance now, didn't you know?

Toon link's keep away game is worse than: Falco, olimar, snake, mk, diddy, maybe pit

If this is true why do all of those characters bar Snake and Diddy lose to ICs?
Yet TL goes +1/+2 on them.
IC's is probably the single most important MU where having a solid keep away game is vital and none of the characters you listed do anywhere near as well as TL does.

I think people have mistaken what I've said about TL.
All I said was that he has a better keep away game, I never said TL was better than Olimar.
Or that TL kills better than Olimar, or that he should be higher on the tier list.
All I said was that TL has an arguably better keep away game.
Olimar's keep away game deals more damage and is much more obnoxious than TLs but it isn't nearly as versatile as TLs.

but he can't make his own openings against top level players with good timing. His keep away game is only good until he is forced to the ledge, then he has NO good options.

Again, this has nothing to do with keep away game.
You aren't trying to create an opening while you're playing keep away, you're trying to keep them away lol.

Lucas can't be middle tier. He gets his *** whooped by DK, Sheik, and Sheilda.

Fox can't be upper middle tier. He gets his *** whooped by Pikachu, ICs, Sheik, and Sheilda.

 

[Doc King]

Hmmm...I might be...



So a wifi Fox...

and no, waddle dee doesn't beat fair. LOL if it was that easy I wouldn't bother recovering.

You are wrong and refuse to understand why you are wrong LOL the only times side B and Up B are predictable are when

1) Fox has no double jump
2) Is FAR below stage

I'll let you continue to believe what you believe though as it won't affect me and the DDDs I play won't magically start gimping me with...Waddle Dee............

Well I guess I can see what you mean about Fox being able to get in without any trouble. Although I should probably see more about this.

 

[| Big D |]

DDD is amazing with nanas, if you manage to get a hold of one, you can place one at the ledge, and frametrap him with forward smash. I

DDD can edgeguard Olimar like there is no tomorrow.

I 2 stocked the best Olimar and Diddty in my region, I know the mu.

IIRC Coney beat Vinnie at apex.

DDD is invincible.

 

[Doc King]

They make animu characters that booty dance now, didn't you know?



If this is true why do all of those characters bar Snake and Diddy lose to ICs?
Yet TL goes +1/+2 on them.
IC's is probably the single most important MU where having a solid keep away game is vital and none of the characters you listed do anywhere near as well as TL does.

I think people have mistaken what I've said about TL.
All I said was that he has a better keep away game, I never said TL was better than Olimar.
Or that TL kills better than Olimar, or that he should be higher on the tier list.
All I said was that TL has an arguably better keep away game.
Olimar's keep away game deals more damage and is much more obnoxious than TLs but it isn't nearly as versatile as TLs.


Again, this has nothing to do with keep away game.
You aren't trying to create an opening while you're playing keep away, you're trying to keep them away lol.



Fox can't be upper middle tier. He gets his *** whooped by Pikachu, ICs, Sheik, and Sheilda.

Fox has a couple of good high tier matchups which are Dedede and Lucario and tbh, those are Fox's real only bad matchups.

I also forgot to mention Marth and Snake.

Do you really crap characters to be mediocre like Lucas, Luigi, Ness, PT to be successful in tourney? (Reflex doesn't count)

They just have way too many hard counters to be considered viable at all. (Even against mid tiers like Donkey Kong) They just get whooped by stuff like grab locks, approaching, limited options, etc.

I'm sorry, but without mk this game is still pretty unbalanced. The only viable characters are Olimar, Climbers, Snake, Diddy, Marth, and Falco.

 

[allshort17]

Do you really crap characters to be mediocre like Lucas, Luigi, Ness, PT to be successful in tourney? (Reflex doesn't count)

Looks like FOW, Mekos, Shaky, Boss, and Biglou have never been successful.

 

[Doc King]

DDD is amazing with nanas, if you manage to get a hold of one, you can place one at the ledge, and frametrap him with forward smash. I

DDD can edgeguard Olimar like there is no tomorrow.

I 2 stocked the best Olimar and Diddty in my region, I know the mu.

IIRC Coney beat Vinnie at apex.

DDD is invincible.

That's kind of cool how you can do that with bananas. The main problem with the matchup is that Dedede it too slow and Diddy will be getting the traps a lot faster and before Dedede will.

Dedede is good at edge guarding Olimar, but Olimar can camp him really hard and combo him a lot.

Coney lost to Gnes at Apex.

Dedede is high tier.

 

[Fuujin]

Doc King no one wants to talk about Dedede anymore.

 

[Doc King]

Looks like FOW, Mekos, Shaky, Boss, and Biglou have never been successful.

From what I remember, Lucas, Luigi, Ness, and PT (Excluding Reflex) haven't made it to bracket at Apex.

There are some ppl who do good with low tiers, but the characters aren't good themselves like Mango's Mario (Scorpion Master). I mean if ur losing badly to Donkey Kong, then you shouldn't be considered in his tier. I mean do you really think that Pit and Rob are about the same as Lucas, Ness, Luigi, and PT? Seriously, mid tier is way too big.

 

[allshort17]

FOW did make it.

 

[Fuujin]

No one said Lucas should be 10 spaces up to where Pit and ROB are.
All I said is that Lucas has more consistent and better results than Sheik, Sheilda(lol) PT, Luigi, and Pit.

No one in his current tier has results anywhere near Lucas, his results are significantly better than everyone else in low tier.

 

[Fuujin]

Btw Doc King Mid Tier actually consist of 3 different tiers.
Just like how Low tier and Top tier have 2 different tiers.

Putting Lucas in mid tier would not make him the same tier as Donkey Kong.
Then the whole logic of, "_____ beats ______ very badly so they can't be in the same tier" is very flawed.