Official BBR Tier List v6

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Azen immediately destroys that claim if I used old results.

Newer ones, June might have.

Trela hasn't broken top8 I think, regional wise they have it's nationals I'm not sure they have.

 

[DMG]

Lucario and Wario both have MUs as bad as (and maybe worse than) anyone else in top tier except for probably falco. And at least snake deserves to be on before Marth. Find me any two nationals in America since brawls release where these three characters have placed top 8 as the primary character and Ill reconsider their solo viability.

And if youre going to use esams set vs nietono while ignoring the context of MU experience on both sides and the fact that ESAM entirely relies on his ICs for the MU, then remember that when he did use ICs he lost even worse than he did with pika. I know how good the top olimars are here, Im in the same region as 2 of the top 3 in the US. The MU is bad, but its not as bad as youre claiming it to be.

I wouldn't count old tournaments, but Wario would also pass that test. As of recent, no he wouldn't.

 

[Chuee]

And if youre going to use esams set vs nietono while ignoring the context of MU experience on both sides and the fact that ESAM entirely relies on his ICs for the MU, then remember that when he did use ICs he lost even worse than he did with pika. I know how good the top olimars are here, Im in the same region as 2 of the top 3 in the US. The MU is bad, but its not as bad as youre claiming it to be.

To be fair, Dabuz 2 stocked ESAM on the same stage and MU.

 

[Mr. Anon]

Re:that Doc King guy a few pages back

Hi, I'm a friend of Doc from off site.
Now, I'm no pro-Brawl expert, and I know he can seem rather unintelligent at times, but he did seem to have good points. Regarding matchups against high tiers by DDD and Peach, looking at the SmashWiki (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBB)), DDD appears to have four good matchups against characters above him, while Peach, who is lower than DDD and therefore has more characters above her, has only two good matchups against high tiers.

It may be that SmashWiki's matchups are outdated, but just looking at averages, DDD and Peach seem just about the same, having an average matchup of 0.4 against characters higher tiered than them.

Am I using a measurement that isn't used much, or am I using outdated info? If I am, please tell me, but as it appears the numbers seem to be at least equal between DDD and Peach, if not in DDD's favor..

 

[Z'zgashi]

Obvious alt account is obvious. And really Doc? You're going to resort to this? Just when I thought you couldnt get any worse...

 

[infiniteV115]

It's not an alt, Doc King writes walls of text that consist of nothing but reciting the MUs found on the MU chart. I don't think I've ever seen him reference the MU spread on ssbbwiki, it's always been the MU chart 2.0.

 

[Orion*]

Hi, I'm a friend of Doc from off site.

immediate rage inducing moment atm
im already sick, and this is like the first thing i read in a while coming back to SWF.

leaving now jesus

 

[fkacyan]

immediate rage inducing moment atm
im already sick, and this is like the first thing i read in a while coming back to SWF.

leaving now jesus

you booty negro

get back here

also check what max wrote on my wall and eriks wall, lmao

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's not an alt for one.

And two, while that is true is also matters with general spread even if doing better against the tops matters more.

 

[Strong Badam]

I feel so bad for the Brawl community. You guys have like 80 million times the amount of terrible, awful, horrible, ****ing ******** posters.

Also Olimar Pika is a -4 MU for Pikachu.

 

[MJG]

I agree with the first part, disagree with second. Toon link can space safely with projectiles and wait for an opponents mistake, but he can't make his own openings against top level players with good timing. His keep away game is only good until he is forced to the ledge, then he has NO good options.


Toon link's keep away game is worse than: Falco, olimar, snake, mk, diddy, maybe pit

I agree with this 100%

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Naruto is probs a lot worse with it's competitively gaming community.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Hi, I'm a friend of Doc from off site.
Now, I'm no pro-Brawl expert, and I know he can seem rather unintelligent at times, but he did seem to have good points. Regarding matchups against high tiers by DDD and Peach, looking at the SmashWiki (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBB)), DDD appears to have four good matchups against characters above him, while Peach, who is lower than DDD and therefore has more characters above her, has only two good matchups against high tiers.

It may be that SmashWiki's matchups are outdated, but just looking at averages, DDD and Peach seem just about the same, having an average matchup of 0.4 against characters higher tiered than them.

Am I using a measurement that isn't used much, or am I using outdated info? If I am, please tell me, but as it appears the numbers seem to be at least equal between DDD and Peach, if not in DDD's favor..

No way......This guy would go this far just to out class a debate he already lost and proven wrong about? Man this community, unreal.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Naruto is probs a lot worse with it's competitively gaming community.

Extreme understatement.

 

[Steam]

Lucario isn't top 5 viability. Snake, D3, and fox are all probably -2 for him. especially snake.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I feel so bad for the Brawl community. You guys have like 80 million times the amount of terrible, awful, horrible, ****ing ******** posters.

Also Olimar Pika is a -4 MU for Pikachu.

I feel bad for the melee community because you guys are stuck playing an outdated game, bitterly trolling a community of players who are happily enjoying a newer one instead of reverse engineering it because it didn't meet their standards.

Someone should make a video on Youtube, like, "**** melee hipsters say," followed by clips of the same **** hapening in melee, by the way.

"Brawl has so much gay ****."
"Brawl has too much camping."
"Brawl is so slow."

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario isn't top 5 viability. Snake, D3, and fox are all probably -2 for him. especially snake.

I will never understand this.

Never.

 

[Conviction]

Do you live near any Foxes?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I do.

Even going OoS and losing to Zeton never made me see -2.

 

[Steam]

honestly... if you stretch it it's possibly even -3. on paper it's awful and the matchup has never happened... soooo...

and after playing coney it made me think the D3 matchup wasn't bad lol, but that didn't happen when I played zeton.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I feel bad for the melee community because you guys are stuck playing an outdated game, bitterly trolling a community of players who are happily enjoying a newer one instead of reverse engineering it because it didn't meet their standards.

Someone should make a video on Youtube, like, "**** melee hipsters say," followed by clips of the same **** hapening in melee, by the way.

"Brawl has so much gay ****."
"Brawl has too much camping."
"Brawl is so slow."

hahahaha, I love this

 

[da K.I.D.]

I play fox against a lucario in my area.

I main sonic.

its like night and day lol. i go from playing my hardest matchup to his hardest. comparitively, its INCREDIBLY free.

 

[DMG]

Why does Fox **** Lucario? I'd figure it would be closer to even???

 

[Hylian]

Why does Fox **** Lucario? I'd figure it would be closer to even???

Probably something silly like Lucario not being able to make use of his aura because fox can upsmash him lol.

 

[Doc King]

I actually used to play the Fox vs. Lucario matchup with Fox and it's actually pretty easy. Not to mention how Fox can shine Lucario's aura balls so Lucario's damage strength actually can harm him more in the matchup.

Fox for high tier. Who agrees with me?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's more that Fox camping + outmaneuvering Lucario is annoying enough to deal with but he can also punish almost all of Lucario's approach options [including cross-ups] on block and Lucario's slow fall speed gives Fox room for some nasty juggles.

Fox ... has a very powerful character design [loses almost only if a CG is involved and even then it's rare] design and Lucario's design ... is kind of whack in comparison. Fox outmatches Lucario in a lot of ways ...

Edit: Fox def high tier.

 

[Conviction]

You know things are bad if I can punish your Fsmash off block and whiff.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox doesn't juggle Lucario, he lacks the range to do that.

It's slightly bad because his Usmash is gay, he has a reflector, and good movespeed. He still dies pretty close to the % Luc does due to his weight, it's almost kirby light. His fallspeed gets him into trouble, he falls into a lot of strings and gets CG' at low %.

It's nowhere near free.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I mean, its free to me because im comparing playing sonic against lucario to playing fox against him...

he also out camps lucario... I shouldnt have to tell you how big of a boon that is.

 

[Conviction]

Fox dies early against Lucario? That's news to me, cause it's never happened to me O.o

Either way though, I feel like arguing with you is going to be like a brick wall. I'll just play the MU the way it's been working for me when it comes around.

We out.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I dont think Fox is High Tier. I think he has High Tier tools, but gets gayed way too hard by the game's physics. If he were in a game with physics that worked around is stupid fast falling speed and super light weight, then I could see him High Tier no problem, but in this game where he gets combo'd and chain'd to oblivion due to the physics... I dont see High Tier.

 

[Doc King]

couldn't like Fox DI upwards and his gravity will help him survive moves?

Z'zgashi, Falco has the same thing and look where he's at. Fox's moves really aren't that different from Falco's.

He also does good against Dedede and Lucario.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Can you leave D3 out of at least the next 5 posts you make?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Falco doesnt get gayed anywhere near as hard as Fox, Falco has a better camping game, Falco has one of the gayest things in the game (dthrow CG), Falco has better options over Fox for the most part, Falco has his LASERS which are ridiculous, etc.

 

[Meru.]

Fox high tier yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa right

Fox's moves really aren't that different from Falco's.

lol?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Fox high tier yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa right



lol?

Diss Doc King bandwagon much? What character has a moveset that more closely resembles Fox's then Falco?

 

[Doc King]

Well of course Falco is better than Fox, but their movesets and even metagames are pretty similar. Just like Ness and Lucas and Mario and Luigi are. Basically semi clones.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Mario and Luigi are completely different characters. All of the characters are different.

 

[Mr. Anon]

I just want to clear things up here: I am not Doc King. I am a friend of his off-site, on the SmashWiki (http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Mr._Anon).
I'm not trying to start a debate here, I'm literally trying to have some questions answered that I am confused about, in response to the discussion that went on. Again, I'm no expert on Smash, so I'm not going to claim any tactical knowledge over the users here. However, the statistics seem to be in favor of DDD in terms of matchups against high tiers.

 

[infiniteV115]

DDD loses badly against MK, ICs, Oli Diddy and Falco (top 5 on the japanese tier list btw, in that order). He also loses pretty badly to Pikachu. So those are DDD's top tier MUs for you, getting beaten hard (-2 or worse) by 6/9 of the top tiers, winning slightly/going even with Snake and Marth and winning (solidly?) against Wario.

If you're talking solely about high tier, ZSS is the only one in high tier that doesn't lose to a high tier character. I'd say the statistics are in her favour XD

This is, of course, following the MU chart. If you want to make a case for ZSS losing to Lucario/Fox, go ahead.
If you want to make a case for ZSS losing to DDD, go away.