Official BBR Tier List v6

[Laem]

Gheb - in what galaxy does fox have a high tier ftilt lol. One of the most pointless and unused ftilts in the game.
Actually looking at all the chars most chars have garbage ftilts. and fox is one of them xD

As for ddk vs peach: banana & fair > peach. For all time (:

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy doesn't have that much of an advantage over Peach. It's closer to even than it is to being a slight disadvantage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Gheb - in what galaxy does fox have a high tier ftilt lol. One of the most pointless and unused ftilts in the game.
Actually looking at all the chars most chars have garbage ftilts. and fox is one of them xD

As for ddk vs peach: banana & fair > peach. For all time (:

His ftilt is a very good zoning tool. Like Falco's but a little slower iirc.

 

[Dark.Pch]

As for ddk vs peach: banana & fair > peach. For all time (:

I see your post goes along with your avatar. This is too easy.

 

[BSP]

Actually looking at all the chars most chars have garbage ftilts.

Yeah, IKR? Most Ftilts suck >.>

And if they don't completely suck, they've got some ridiculous drawback.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy should be below Snake and maybe ICs

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox has a top-tier combo of walk, dash + grab. A top tier usmash. A high tier OoS jump. A high tier recovery. A high tier ftilt. A top tier nair. A high tier utilt. A high tier dair. A top tier uair. A top tier bair. A very high tier projectile. A high tier fair. A top tier anti-juggle trap game. A high tier anti ledge trap game. Very high tier spacing / zoning game.

Character's broken.

Somethings to consider.

His airspeed is bad, yeah he has great vertical movement up and down but he lacks the ability to move horizontally.

His fallspeed gets him into a lot of trouble, not just Pikachu and Sheik. Some characters get silly CGs on him due to this, Pit, Lucario, Olimar, Peach, etc.

Why are some of these moves super high tier and such? I can think of some characters with better Ftilts, Fairs, etc. Yeah some of his moves are good, but they aren't top tier moves like his Ftilt, wut.

His recovery isn't that great, it's very linear and the lack of airspeed makes it easier to intercept him horizontally since his options to fix this, SideB and UpB, tend to be more punishable.

Not in the slightest. Fox loses 2 match-ups for being a fast-faller - Pikachu and Sheik.

He loses a third just as bad because he lacks range and his cross up game gets stuffed out, Ice Climbers.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dosent olimar get at fox?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not sure what that means.

Olimar has a 0-60% CG or something along with a solid keep out game on him.

 

[BSP]

His fallspeed gets him into a lot of trouble, not just Pikachu and Sheik. Some characters get silly CGs on him due to this, Pit, Lucario, Olimar, Peach, etc.

Mario gets an Fthrow to Fsmash from 0%

I don't remember if the the Fthrow has to be stale though.

Also, since you're listing Fox's cons, remember that he is very light. I was just watching a vid and he died from Oli's purple Usmash at 89%, which means he got hit at around...idk,70ish. Point: He's light.

 

[Dark.Pch]

In other words, isnt olimar a bad match up for fox. I would assume he does but I know nothing of that match up from both sides. So I am asking to know for sure.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mario gets an Fthrow to Fsmash from 0%

I don't remember if the the Fthrow has to be stale though.

Also, remember that Fox is very light. I was just watching a vid and he died from Oli's purple Usmash at 89%, which means he got hit at around...idk,70ish. Point: He's light.

Nope, doesnt have to be stale, but I bet if it WAS stale you could land an up angled fsmash for the extra 2%ish lol

 

[infiniteV115]

To me a high tier character is a character that can't be realistically expected to do well in tourney all by itself but only needs one secondary [not necessarily MK] to cover all his bad match-ups. It really depends though; if that one character has to be used for most of the "important" match-ups then you can't really call it a high tier match-up.

Like, realistically GW can't beat Diddy, IC, Olimar and is much better off with a second against Snake and Marth too. At that point, whatever character you use for these match-ups you can't even call it a "secondary" anymore because that list includes like the entire top 5 minus MK. Similar cases are Peach, ROB or Kirby - like GW, there's no way they will ever be high tier unless you ban like the entire top tier minus one or two characters.

I'd call Pit or Fox high tier because their two or three really bad match-ups can be covered with one secondary character. And I mean an actual "secondary" character - not pocket top tier char that's supposed to deal with all that character's garbage MUs.

If this is your definition of a high-tier character then I'd have to argue that ZSS is top tier. None of her MUs are worse than -1 and she only has 7 of them (all of them are top tier), so I wouldn't say she 'needs' a secondary to cover her losing MUs because they're all manageable with ZSS.

Though I think she goes even with Snake and maybe Wario, and with the MK ban she has a better chance of performing well, but she's still left in a really weird spot. She loses to almost all of top tier but all of the losing MUs are manageable in and of themselves. It's just the fact that to do well in tourney she would have to win -1 after -1 after -1...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In other words, isnt olimar a bad match up for fox. I would assume he does but I know nothing of that match up from both sides. So I am asking to know for sure.

He is, but a lot of people tend to forget Fox has a few -1 MUs as well like Olimar.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If this is your definition of a high-tier character then I'd have to argue that ZSS is top tier. None of her MUs are worse than -1 and she only has 7 of them (all of them are top tier), so I wouldn't say she 'needs' a secondary to cover her losing MUs because they're all manageable with ZSS.

Not sure what to think about that. I'm not an expert on ZSS but I'd put MK, Falco and Olimar as -2 for her tbh.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If this is your definition of a high-tier character then I'd have to argue that ZSS is top tier. None of her MUs are worse than -1 and she only has 7 of them (all of them are top tier), so I wouldn't say she 'needs' a secondary to cover her losing MUs because they're all manageable with ZSS.

Though I think she goes even with Snake and maybe Wario, and with the MK ban she has a better chance of performing well, but she's still left in a really weird spot. She loses to almost all of top tier but all of the losing MUs are manageable in and of themselves. It's just the fact that to do well in tourney she would have to win -1 after -1 after -1...

Also under that logic Yoshi is technically High Tier, all his MUs are winnable and solo Yoshi players have placed Top 16 in Nationals multiple times, which is better than most High Tiers

But seriously, High Tiers shouldnt have any auto-loss MUs or terribly huge flaws, and Fox has multiple in both of those ares.

 

[Steam]

So yeah, Fox kills early, but he kinda gets the same treatment back.

how's lucario going to hit fox with a kill move? all of luc's kill moves are unsafe on fox and also pretty much impossible to land. luc can't punish fox with fsmash unless fox misspaces and whiffs something in front of him. meanwhile fox can upsmash pretty much everything Lucario does on reaction.

 

[infiniteV115]

Not sure what to think about that. I'm not an expert on ZSS but I'd put MK, Falco and Olimar as -2 for her tbh.

Falco is definitely not -2.
MK being -2 is more likely than Oli being -2, and even that's a stretch.

 

[Doc King]

Also under that logic Yoshi is technically High Tier, all his MUs are winnable and solo Yoshi players have placed Top 16 in Nationals multiple times, which is better than most High Tiers

But seriously, High Tiers shouldnt have any auto-loss MUs or terribly huge flaws, and Fox has multiple in both of those ares.

has , , , and .

Why do you guys always make tier list look like a -2 matchup contest? There's a lot more to tier list than bad counter matchups.

Z'zgashi, that's basically saying tiers are for queers because everyone can win a matchup. Nothing is unwinnable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dunno why Diddy is on that list ... Yoshi's not an easy MU for Diddy. MK needs to be up there though.

 

[phi1ny3]

Fox has a top-tier combo of walk, dash + grab. A top tier usmash. A high tier OoS jump. A high tier recovery. A high tier ftilt. A top tier nair. A high tier utilt. A high tier dair. A top tier uair. A top tier bair. A very high tier projectile. A high tier fair. A top tier anti-juggle trap game. A high tier anti ledge trap game. Very high tier spacing / zoning game.

Character's broken.



Not in the slightest. Fox loses 2 match-ups for being a fast-faller - Pikachu and Sheik.

Not that this is a huge MU changer, but his fallspeed makes it so that even sopo is dangerous haha. 0-80 -> fsmash/dtilt is pretty ridiculous if you get grabbed lol

Amen to all the fox points though. I just wish there were more smarter foxes around. Most of the ones barring Nakat, TKD, and Yui are pretty brain-dead in their gameplay lol, it's like they forget half of smash 101 because they just rely on how good fox's autopilot is to breeze with, and then once they get on a stumbling block...

 

[Kuro~]

Lol there's a good fox in like every region. The fox community is just really...err...separate.

 

[Espy Rose]

It does have some ending lag and that's punishable if you shield/spotdodge (but you shouldn't get that much off of a shield. IIRC the shield pushback from the move is rather large), but if Fox uses the move correctly (combo'ing into it, punishing your mistakes at high %), I don't think he should get punished for Usmash much.

Sonic can shield, then drop the shield from a Fox Usmash into his Fsmash.
Fox's usmash has a TON of ending lag that's easily punishable. It just comes out ridiculously fast.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Fox upsmash hits on frame 8. its not really fast. Just looks like it. And he is open for 31 frames.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy is not -2, I don't even get why it's on the chart. I think that was the thing that bothered me the most in Yoshis MU spread.
well I know that the Item Game of every US Yoshi suck and most think it's -2 for that very reason. Step it up :/

 

[PSI Nexus]

Well of course Falco is better than Fox, but their movesets and even metagames are pretty similar. Just like Ness and Lucas and Mario and Luigi are. Basically semi clones.

Holy crap, what? None of those characters play similarly to each other. Their recovery methods are similar but that's about it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dunno why Diddy is on that list ... Yoshi's not an easy MU for Diddy. MK needs to be up there though.

I can only imagine how focused the Yoshi's were on making MK -1 while forgetting about Diddy Kong.

Diddy is not -2, I don't even get why it's on the chart. I think that was the thing that bothered me the most in Yoshis MU spread.
well I know that the Item Game of every US Yoshi suck and most think it's -2 for that very reason. Step it up :/

I've played enough Diddy Kongs tournament and friendlies to know it's not -2, only reason i've lost to some in tournament is cause they've counterpicked Diddy and FD. (magik Pj etc.)
I think my item game is just fine, my problem is getting the kill on them and I die before them cause of my impatience.

 

[PSI Nexus]

hay diska,

m2k thinks Zelda is the worst character in the game

Hmm...Maybe. I always thought Jiggs was worse than Link and Zelda though. Not sure about Ganon being worst anymore.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy racks damage very fast on Yoshi.
in exchange YOshi lives until 200% every stock. (NO EXCEPTIONS! don't get killed by fair)
and in my opinion FD is overrated as a Diddy CP, the japanese already notice that, I hope people here will get it too (it's stil strong of course but not as much as people say)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Fox upsmash hits on frame 8. its not really fast. Just looks like it. And he is open for 31 frames.

But what makes it dangerous is that it can be mixed up with grab.

 

[Kuro~]

Fox upsmash hits on frame 8. its not really fast. Just looks like it. And he is open for 31 frames.

It's good cuz the distance it travels relative to the frame it comes out.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It's good cuz the distance it travels relative to the frame it comes out.

I was going to say this but you can still see it coming from a mile away

 

[Juushichi]

I feel like Fox's usmash is amazing because of the pressure that it exerts at high percents. Most of his mix-up game is still present, he can still laser you (and refresh his moves), play really passively, get grabs and everything and if you mess up that one time, he's in there.

As a character, he seems kinda like Sonic with a reliable kill move and some better ways to do damage when he's in your face. He plays battles of attrition while being relatively safe, waits for you to mess up and gets a good punish out of it.

 

[Conviction]

I wanted to respond to whole discussion but then I saw someone say Usmash is slow.

Hitbox frame 8.

Slow?

That's faster than some characters' tilts.

Fox boards are dead so getting from there is worthless beyond '09 stuff.

The North has Nakat, the South has Trump, MW has Zeton, Texas has Megafox, Cali/WC has Trevonte. While internationally, EU has C.R.Z., Mexico has TKD (not sure if he really quit or not, he says he is quitting too much just to come back a month later), Japan has Yui.

There are the lower level foxes such as myself, P-3, Light, TO Joe (not really sure if he is still playing Fox at all tbh, connections with him are hard), M@v, etc.

There's a Fox community, just not cohesive.

 

[-LzR-]

And if you can react to something in 8 frames, you are godlike. I can barely react to Falcos fsmash.

 

[Dark.Pch]

But what makes it dangerous is that it can be mixed up with grab.

How?

It's good cuz the distance it travels relative to the frame it comes out.

You mean when he runs in to an upsmash? if that is the case, I can see it coming and ready to react to it. I usually would go in with a ground float nair if I sense he will run to upsmash.

 

[Conviction]

You asked how and then explained it in the same post.

If you are tunnel visioning for the Usmash, mix-ups are going **** you up. Like, I want to want to argue this but it's like I have to use specific examples and **** and it's really tedious.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You asked how and then explained it in the same post.

If you are tunnel visioning for the Usmash, mix-ups are going **** you up. Like, I want to want to argue this but it's like I have to use specific examples and **** and it's really tedious.

Thats why I said if I feel like my enemy would. I know about mix ups and all that (Hello, look at the character I use) I never once said I would get it right 100%. None one ever does. Just based on educated guesses. Like I can pick a random moment where I think fox will upsmash and I just hit him for it. I could pick another time and he does something else. I really don't wanna explain terms and concepts of a fighting game like option select and etc. I should not have too.

 

[Conviction]

Derp, if you know then why would you ask how is dash sheild grab a good mix-up for Dash Usmash??

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

how's lucario going to hit fox with a kill move? all of luc's kill moves are unsafe on fox and also pretty much impossible to land. luc can't punish fox with fsmash unless fox misspaces and whiffs something in front of him. meanwhile fox can upsmash pretty much everything Lucario does on reaction.

So you don't Fsmash grounded opponent's, like your not suppose to do anyways unless you read a spot dodge or shuttle step to mess with spacing.

A lot of his kill moves are actually a lot more plausible to land. I dunno why you seem to think he's impossible to kill, when it's a lot more plausible to hit him that this.

Not everything hitting Fox's shield is an Usmash either.