Official BBR Tier List v6

[Kuro~]

You can equate foxes upsmash to warios waft on the effect it has on the opponent. That's what makes it so good. It forces the opponent to specific options lest they risk losing the stock lead to fox...

 

[Dark.Pch]

Derp, if you know then why would you ask how is dash sheild grab a good mix-up for Dash Usmash??

The dude said his upsmash can me mixed up to a grab. That does not sound the same way as

"dash sheild grab a good mix-up for Dash Usmash"

Had he said this, it would have been more clear.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can equate foxes upsmash to warios waft on the effect it has on the opponent. That's what makes it so good. It forces the opponent to specific options lest they risk losing the stock lead to fox...

Yeah, this works.

 

[Chuee]

The dude said his upsmash can me mixed up to a grab. That does not sound the same way as

"dash sheild grab a good mix-up for Dash Usmash"

Had he said this, it would have been more clear.

He said it can be mixed up 'with' grab.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Good thing is one of the few characters who gimps and TKD even thinks beats +1. Sex~!

When you have to use up b or side b then these outcomes can occur quite frequently for a stock:

Laser>Shine>JS
Nair>Shine>JS

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf doesn't beat Fox tho =/

 

[infiniteV115]

Ya Wofl sucks

 

[Laem]

Fox beats wolf +1 imo
but w/e nothing matters
wolf is a boss at gimping fox and falco, true that.

 

[BSP]

@espy-ok, my mistake. Still though, it's a pretty good move. It limits the opponent like kuro said.

 

[da K.I.D.]

tkd got dat ac fear

 

[Steam]

So you don't Fsmash grounded opponent's, like your not suppose to do anyways unless you read a spot dodge or shuttle step to mess with spacing.

A lot of his kill moves are actually a lot more plausible to land. I dunno why you seem to think he's impossible to kill, when it's a lot more plausible to hit him that this.

Not everything hitting Fox's shield is an Usmash either.

what else is lucario going to hit fox with that kills? an aerial? maybe if fox is offstage. any other smash? lol. aurasphere? shine.

a fox with a brain isn't going to give many opportunities to punish landings with fsmash, and even in those cases, fox has a shine to prevent having his landing punished.

and no every mistake doesn't = upsmash, he can also dash grab us, or Dair us if we space poorly. at high % pretty much every move you use needs to hit him save Ftilt or you pretty much die. Upsmash even beats SH approaches... duuuumb.

 

[Cassio]

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from a top level player is that at an opponents death percents go for grabs more than kill moves. When an opponent reaches death percent you wouldnt believe the fear of death fox's usmash sets into them, only to get grabbed by his best-in-the-game ground movement.

Diddy racks damage very fast on Yoshi.
in exchange YOshi lives until 200% every stock. (NO EXCEPTIONS! don't get killed by fair)
and in my opinion FD is overrated as a Diddy CP, the japanese already notice that, I hope people here will get it too (it's stil strong of course but not as much as people say)

almost every character could use this reasoning to say their MU with diddy is better.

 

[NAKAT]

I only talk to Iblis and Zeton in the Fox community honestly. I talk to Trevonte every now and then, we got to talk a lot at Apex.

 

[Sinister Slush]

almost every character could use this reasoning to say their MU with diddy is better.

Except some don't have Yoshi's mobility nor double jumps canceled when they throw bananas/items.

 

[DMG]

Fox has a top-tier combo of walk, dash + grab. A top tier usmash. A high tier OoS jump. A high tier recovery. A high tier ftilt. A top tier nair. A high tier utilt. A high tier dair. A top tier uair. A top tier bair. A very high tier projectile. A high tier fair. A top tier anti-juggle trap game. A high tier anti ledge trap game. Very high tier spacing / zoning game.

Character's broken.



Not in the slightest. Fox loses 2 match-ups for being a fast-faller - Pikachu and Sheik.

His nair is not top tier LOL

Who's shield can you nair and be safe on? Who are you outranging with Nair? It comes out quick, but what else makes it good? Tons of damage like MK? More than 1 hit? There's no possible way you could justify his Nair as top tier, not as an approach as a wall or as a OOS option. "Oh I don't have to Dair approach all the time I can also Nair" lol.

His fair is not that good either. Best use for it is rising up with it. Most of the time you see the move successfully hit 3-4 times, the person isn't SDIing down. It's certainly not useful vs most of the cast as an approaching tool, and if he misses with it he's usually much higher than the other person in the air (not that he's incredibly vulnerable trying to land, but it effectively would end his juggle options)


Most of the options you listed, you even label them as high tier not top tier. Truth is, actual top tier attributes and moves the character has is limited to basically 2 things. His Usmash is Godly and his laser is very helpful vs most characters. His overall attributes in most areas is fairly average or above average. Weight Kill power (Usmash being the outlier by far) Range High tier attack speed lower than average end lag etc. He's a high tier character that has 2 super defining moves (could argue Shine makes it 3), with mostly high tier down to averagish tools. He's not a top tier character that just happens to get ***** by random bull**** lol.

 

[Cassio]

As I mentioned, his top tier and potentially best in the game mobility is much more important than his usmash or lasers.

 

[Tesh]

I'd say Falco is a top tier character that just had some major issues here and there. Or Wario even (then again maybe DMG's sig is just hypnotizing me)

Fox is worse overall and seems to suffer the very same issues.

 

[Cassio]

Falco and Wario are top tier characters that are top tier. lol.

 

[DMG]

He's only got good ground mobility. Which is still strong, but he lacks an overall kit to exploit it. The scariest thing he has hands down is being able to cover ground and Usmash. You aren't scared of him being able to cover that ground and hit you with random aerial or tilt or grab. Sure he gets the option/ability to even consider doing this, but the end result still isn't that bad for most characters vs him. If he had that mobility, and then punished people with MK-esque strings, or a Chain grab, or some really hard punishing regular move he could spam without diminishing his kill potential, that would be scary.

He has a great trait there, but not an amazing kit at even coming close to fully abusing what that means. If any great character had the ground speed of him or Sonic, this game would be bonkers lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

His vertical mobility is pretty good too. It's just his aerial horizontal mobility that's trash.

 

[Kuro~]

His nair is not top tier LOL

Who's shield can you nair and be safe on? Who are you outranging with Nair? It comes out quick, but what else makes it good? Tons of damage like MK? More than 1 hit? There's no possible way you could justify his Nair as top tier, not as an approach as a wall or as a OOS option. "Oh I don't have to Dair approach all the time I can also Nair" lol.

His fair is not that good either. Best use for it is rising up with it. Most of the time you see the move successfully hit 3-4 times, the person isn't SDIing down. It's certainly not useful vs most of the cast as an approaching tool, and if he misses with it he's usually much higher than the other person in the air (not that he's incredibly vulnerable trying to land, but it effectively would end his juggle options)


Most of the options you listed, you even label them as high tier not top tier. Truth is, actual top tier attributes and moves the character has is limited to basically 2 things. His Usmash is Godly and his laser is very helpful vs most characters. His overall attributes in most areas is fairly average or above average. Weight Kill power (Usmash being the outlier by far) Range High tier attack speed lower than average end lag etc. He's a high tier character that has 2 super defining moves (could argue Shine makes it 3), with mostly high tier down to averagish tools. He's not a top tier character that just happens to get ***** by random bull**** lol.

What? Nair def has a bunch of uses. Nair leads to upsmash in many cases, it narrows the body which makes it great against air campers,the lingering hitbox is good at covering AD. It also comes out frame 4 and has very little landing lag which makes it ALMOST as good a cross up as bair.

Irrelevant but it is also his jab lock move

SHACFair is an amazing anti-air and is just plain great against a bunch of fatties.

He's only got good ground mobility. Which is still strong, but he lacks an overall kit to exploit it. The scariest thing he has hands down is being able to cover ground and Usmash. You aren't scared of him being able to cover that ground and hit you with random aerial or tilt or grab. Sure he gets the option/ability to even consider doing this, but the end result still isn't that bad for most characters vs him. If he had that mobility, and then punished people with MK-esque strings, or a Chain grab, or some really hard punishing regular move he could spam without diminishing his kill potential, that would be scary.

He has a great trait there, but not an amazing kit at even coming close to fully abusing what that means. If any great character had the ground speed of him or Sonic, this game would be bonkers lol.

Uhhh what? Foxes throws are amazing. They set up so many opportunities to get the kill that you wouldn't normally have. That and their dmg is rather nice.

 

[DMG]

I guessed I'm used to getting out of anything for free Wario style. If I play Snake sure I could be salty about Uthrow and Dthrow

 

[Kuro~]

It's not just snake. It puts ppl in a really bad position cuz of foxes amazing anti-air options and great frame traps.

Ya wario has more options to cover which can make those a bit less useful against him haha.

 

[Cassio]

Walk Speed
1st
Dash Foxtrot Speed
1st
Running Speed
3rd
Acceleration Due to Gravity
1st
Normal Fall Terminal Velocity
3rd
Fast Falling Terminal Velocity
3rd
Base Aerial Mobility
10th
Maximum Air Speed
29th

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Those are his base mobility numbers. Just a note that his horizontal aerial mobility isnt horrid due to his quick acceleration at close range, it allows him to jump in on opponents but requires more commitment. In regards to how it affects his recovery it is really bad, though he has other ways around that. I agree that he doesnt have anything broken out of dash, but I really feel like the importance of grabs are underestimated.

I guess I cant expect everyone to agree but I really feel that his high stats in vertical mobility are a big asset. I think if his only high stat was normal fall speed it would be bad, but having high stats in all areas of vertical speed plus his shine stall, fair, and to a lesser extent illusion gives him versatility and allows him to use his vertical mobility in a way thats unique to him.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf doesn't beat Fox tho =/

He does based on tourney results. I'd like to say is +1 vs based on theory and practice.

Fox beats wolf +1 imo
but w/e nothing matters
wolf is a boss at gimping fox and falco, true that.

Learn to bait . 's lack ability to truely camp efficiently because his lasers get reflected when both characters are grounded. His only reliable approach vs a grounded is grab or shad (The two options 's always do...), which is easy to see coming. If they shad then they'll utilt, in which you can shield and then punish OoS with Fair or Bair (Depending on which direction you're facing). If they grab then they do like 7% with Dthrow and can't really follow up reliably if you just move away due to 's amazing aerial mobility. Killing usually happens through gimps, Usmash, sometimes Fair, and Dsmash. I don't see why you think would beat . Tourney results indicate the opposite.

Walk Speed
1st
Dash Foxtrot Speed
1st
Running Speed
3rd
Acceleration Due to Gravity
1st
Normal Fall Terminal Velocity
3rd
Fast Falling Terminal Velocity
3rd
Base Aerial Mobility
10th
Maximum Air Speed
29th

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Those are his base mobility numbers. Just a note that his horizontal aerial mobility isnt horrid due to his quick acceleration at close range, it allows him to jump in on opponents but requires more commitment. In regards to how it affects his recovery it is really bad, though he has other ways around that. I agree that he doesnt have anything broken out of dash, but I really feel like the importance of grabs are underestimated.

I guess I cant expect everyone to agree but I really feel that his high stats in vertical mobility are a big asset. I think if his only high stat was normal fall speed it would be bad, but having high stats in all areas of vertical speed plus his shine stall, fair, and to a lesser extent illusion gives him versatility and allows him to use his vertical mobility in a way thats unique to him.

His traits are basically the polar opposite of 's. Though 's walk is quite good, but his run is almost the same speed as his walk. Only point in running is to Dacus.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

what else is lucario going to hit fox with that kills? an aerial? maybe if fox is offstage. any other smash? lol. aurasphere? shine.

Dair, Force Palm, Fsmash, Aura sphere, uair, bair.

I mean, he has ways to not die to these and get around them, but these are all fesable to land on him.

a fox with a brain isn't going to give many opportunities to punish landings with fsmash, and even in those cases, fox has a shine to prevent having his landing punished.

If I think he is going to try a dair or nair approach you can.

If you know he is going to shine in some cases, you can punish it. It's not like Wolf's shine which is way gayer because it out ranges most of Lucario's aerials. Shine stalls, but you can plan on the stall at least and punish it with a DJ aerial or something.

Wolf's shine is way worse because it gets the anti sphere stuff and stuffs out aerials.

and no every mistake doesn't = upsmash, he can also dash grab us, or Dair us if we space poorly. at high % pretty much every move you use needs to hit him save Ftilt or you pretty much die. Upsmash even beats SH approaches... duuuumb.

Umm...I'd rather put myself to get hit by both of those, assuming dair isn't the dumb 2 hit to Usmash one.

And even at high %, Fox dies pretty well. His Weight is still pretty light and get him into the glass cannon area, since his Usmash is a huge outlier from the rest of his kill moves.

SH approach, that would be fair alone. Which honestly isn't a problem if you plan on using it at a distance where it hits and doesn't whiff so he can space out with Usmash after it.

We're just going to disagree it seems, but I love a good debate.

 

[Steam]

fox shouldn't be approaching with dair or nair... maybe nair if he wants to cross up I guess but Dair is a punish move o_O

the only one of the kill moves you mentioned that's very viable is Uair. we can juggle him decently.\

fox's shine is really annoying in that it stalls him, without it we'd be able to wreck his landing since he has bad airspeed.

if you try to space fair against fox and retreat he can dash>upsmash punish. if you don't hit him and it's not ftilt he can probably upsmash you for it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If this is all true why is it a borderline -3, nothing either of us has said puts it anywhere close to that, I actually do agree some of the things your saying.

It really shouldn't be that bad.

I agree he wins the MU but I don't see why he has such an absurd advantage even playing against the best of the character personally.

 

[da K.I.D.]

fox can fair lucario after shielding his fair.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fox can do almost anything when he shields Lucario's fair.

 

[Steam]

fox can do basically anything when lucario does anything (except ftilt) and it doesn't hit fox.

just be thankful fox is rare and the foxes that are out there don't REALLY know how to pick lucario apart. I gurantee a good fox who knew the ins and outs of lucario would never ever lose to him.

 

[Laem]

^ Because brilliance of the individual is of course impossible

 

[Linkshot]

fox can do basically anything when lucario does anything (except ftilt) and it doesn't hit fox.

just be thankful fox is rare and the foxes that are out there don't REALLY know how to pick lucario apart. I gurantee a good fox who knew the ins and outs of lucario would never ever lose to him.

Guard (Montreal) is that Fox. I've gotten him down to last hit, but that's it.
Fox probably is Lucario's hardest matchup now.

 

[DMG]

BRB Maining Fox for Trela

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Most of the US foxes don't play on a level where it really matters though. Amd I think people are kind of stretching it now. Imho Snake is still Lucario's worst match-up if he plays the MU really on point. 2nd worst is a toss up between MK, Oli and Fox imo

 

[NAKAT]

Yo what the ****.....lol...

 

[Steam]

Most of the US foxes don't play on a level where it really matters though. Amd I think people are kind of stretching it now. Imho Snake is still Lucario's worst match-up if he plays the MU really on point. 2nd worst is a toss up between MK, Oli and Fox imo

MK is indisputably his worst matchup.

D3, Fox, and MK are harder than olimar.

IMO it goes like...

MK
fox/snake
D3
diddy/olimar/wario/etc

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK is indisputably his worst matchup.

Not true.

 

[Cassio]

^a lot of characters just auto put MK as their worst MU just because they have so many top level players. Probably not the best idea though.

Anyways, Havok wins a huge WC tournament with most its best players in attendance. Ally wins a huge EC tournament with many of its best players. Razers the best player in texas. MVD is 4th in FL behind MKs and a ZSS. That covers the 4 strongest regions in the US. Snake consistenly pulls in the most money with or without MK. This doesnt even cover all the other top/high level snake players around the country. Can we move snake back to second please?

 

[z00ted]

Not too sure about Razer being the best in Texas.