Official BBR Tier List v6

[Doc King]

Dedede has a lot of -2 matchups (Diddy, Olimar, Pikachu, and Falco and -3 against climbers) against the top tiers which puts him into high tier. He does have a great Wario matchup (+2) and slight advantages against Marth and Snake (+1). His high tier matchups are basically even for the most part.

 

[Mr. Anon]

DDD loses badly against MK, ICs, Oli Diddy and Falco (top 5 on the japanese tier list btw, in that order). He also loses pretty badly to Pikachu. So those are DDD's top tier MUs for you, getting beaten hard (-2 or worse) by 6/9 of the top tiers, winning slightly/going even with Snake and Marth and winning (solidly?) against Wario.

If you're talking solely about high tier, ZSS is the only one in high tier that doesn't lose to a high tier character. I'd say the statistics are in her favour XD

This is, of course, following the MU chart. If you want to make a case for ZSS losing to Lucario/Fox, go ahead.
If you want to make a case for ZSS losing to DDD, go away.

I wasn't saying DDD>ZSS, I was saying DDD>Peach against high tiers.

Meta Knight is banned, so we can discount him. For the top tier (Diddy, Snake, Falco), DDD averages the same as Peach, doing better than Snake while Peach is only even against Diddy and weak against the other two. For the high tier, Peach does better than DDD, as she has several even matchups. So overall there, Peach is better using this kind of measurement.

So as it is Peach does "OK" against many characters in the High/top tier, but DDD actually counters more. Overall I guess you are right, DDD seems more of a character who is really good against some but really bad against others while Peach is just "OK" against most of the high tier.

 

[Mr. Anon]

Dedede has a lot of -2 matchups (Diddy, Olimar, Pikachu, and Falco and -3 against climbers) against the top tiers which puts him into high tier. He does have a great Wario matchup (+2) and slight advantages against Marth and Snake (+1). His high tier matchups are basically even for the most part.

I wouldn't call that "about even". Statistically, yes, it does balance out. For Peach though, you have a "decent" chance against most of the high tier, while for DDD there are characters where it is very difficult to win against.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Can we please make it a rule to never talk about DDD in this thread ever again?

 

[Doc King]

I wouldn't call that "about even". Statistically, yes, it does balance out. For Peach though, you have a "decent" chance against most of the high tier, while for DDD there are characters where it is very difficult to win against.

Peach is probably better as a main since you can overplay matchups and you won't be wrecked by 2/3's of the tourney cast. Although Dedede what makes Dedede better in the tier list is how he can counter Wario really well and Snake and Marth pretty well for their success and tier placement. Dedede is a lot better as a counter character, but Peach is better as a main.

Also, just edit ur 1st post instead of double posting. (Just helping out)

Can we please make it a rule to never talk about DDD in this thread ever again?

nope.

 

[infiniteV115]

I wasn't saying DDD>ZSS, I was saying DDD>Peach against high tiers.

Ah, my bad. You see, I read this (look below)

However, the statistics seem to be in favor of DDD in terms of matchups against high tiers.

And I thought you meant that DDD does better against high tier than..well, the rest of high tier XD

 

[Steam]

@previous- Fox beats lucario bad because of his ability to outcamp lucario and force him to commit to punishable approaches. his movement speed and mixups completely destroy any aggressive zoning (which is mostly unsafe anyways) aaaand fox can punish everything with upsmash which kills at 110 at latest. shine + fall speed makes it very hard for lucario to juggle/string fox. the one good thing lucario has on fox is that he ***** his recovery. if lucario can grab fox at the ledge he can pummel release fox off and fox is pretty much done.

fox can't really juggle lucario btw. but it doesn't matter because fox is so good against lucario at neutral.

but that's just theory, lucario's usually bad on paper but does better in practice because he's pretty versatile. if the opponent doesn't play against or as lucario a lot that's even better since there's a lot lucario can do that is preventable.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Doc King is my hero.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Peach is mid tier guys, that obviously means that she is worse than a high tier like King Dedede.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@previous- Fox beats lucario bad because of his ability to outcamp lucario and force him to commit to punishable approaches. his movement speed and mixups completely destroy any aggressive zoning (which is mostly unsafe anyways) aaaand fox can punish everything with upsmash which kills at 110 at latest. shine + fall speed makes it very hard for lucario to juggle/string fox. the one good thing lucario has on fox is that he ***** his recovery. if lucario can grab fox at the ledge he can pummel release fox off and fox is pretty much done.

fox can't really juggle lucario btw. but it doesn't matter because fox is so good against lucario at neutral.

but that's just theory, lucario's usually bad on paper but does better in practice because he's pretty versatile. if the opponent doesn't play against or as lucario a lot that's even better since there's a lot lucario can do that is preventable.

Aura makes it hard to quantify where his kill power is and when he dies both matter in MU, since if he can avoid being killed even in MUs where he dies early, it matters for himself. If he dies early it sucks a lot and can swing a MU.

High risk high reward, etc.

I mean on the flip side.

Weight comparison:
33 Fox 80
34-35 Meta Knight 79
34-35 Pikachu 79
36 Kirby 78
37-38 Mr. Game & Watch 75

Fox's fall speed lets him live vertically well, even then shine makes Uair kills hard, but that isn't where he is going to die, he's going to die horizontally more often than not knowing how Luc kills usually.

So yeah, Fox kills early, but he kinda gets the same treatment back.

Peach is probably better as a main since you can overplay matchups and you won't be wrecked by 2/3's of the tourney cast. Although Dedede what makes Dedede better in the tier list is how he can counter Wario really well and Snake and Marth pretty well for their success and tier placement. Dedede is a lot better as a counter character, but Peach is better as a main.

Also, just edit ur 1st post instead of double posting. (Just helping out)

You need to stop going in circles with people. We discussed this to the ground already.

We know DDD does better against certain top tiers but he has problems as a whole with high tier instead of specific MUs. We've said this quite a few times, we know you are into this topic a lot but you do bring it up a lot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox isn't a mid tier character with high tier tools.
He's a high tier character with top tier tools.

 

[Conviction]

Why'd you say that Gheb? V___V

Inb4AntiFoxcrowdcomesbackaround

 

[DMG]

Mmmm, Usmash is really good everything else not really. Lasers come close, but everything else no. Moves you can SDI to greatly blunt their effectiveness, decent recovery, nothing else screams top tier tool at all. He's got 1 great Smash, a pretty solid camping tool, and Shine. Doesn't have great weight/fast falling screws him over more often than not, doesn't have absurd range, he basically has those top 3 things to work with. Everything else of his is not even close to top tier (being able to Upsmash OOS/Shield drop is good too might as well mention that).


He's more like high tier character who got lucky with certain moves, is decent in other areas, and unfortunately gets fondled for being a fast faller. THAT describes Fox.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox has a top-tier combo of walk, dash + grab. A top tier usmash. A high tier OoS jump. A high tier recovery. A high tier ftilt. A top tier nair. A high tier utilt. A high tier dair. A top tier uair. A top tier bair. A very high tier projectile. A high tier fair. A top tier anti-juggle trap game. A high tier anti ledge trap game. Very high tier spacing / zoning game.

Character's broken.

He's more like high tier character who got lucky with certain moves, is decent in other areas, and unfortunately gets fondled for being a fast faller. THAT describes Fox.

Not in the slightest. Fox loses 2 match-ups for being a fast-faller - Pikachu and Sheik.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fox has a top-tier combo of walk, dash + grab. A top tier usmash. A high tier OoS jump. A high tier recovery. A high tier ftilt. A top tier nair. A high tier utilt. A high tier dair. A top tier uair. A top tier bair. A very high tier projectile. A high tier fair. A top tier anti-juggle trap game. A high tier anti ledge trap game. Very high tier spacing / zoning game.

Character's broken.

I feel like you're exaggerating a little bit. Can you elaborate on up-smash, OoS jump, recovery, nair, utilt, and fair please?

All the other moves I can see they'd be very good moves (although DI and SDI kinda ***** dair, it combos into dsmash at certain percents so...), but up-smash seems kinda predictable (not to mention slow and punishable, though it gets nice distance from his run), I don't see anything special about his OoS jump, his Up B is kinda eh, and his Side B is probably the worst of the three spacies (Although it is pretty good), utilt chains only work on nubs, unless there's another use for the move that I can't see, and the only real use I can see for fair is boosting your second jump, since unfortunately it's cursed to be a multihit move.

I'd love to know more about this stuff, since I was contemplating picking up Fox for a little while until I realised that he's very technical and very difficult to use since he dies when Magikarp uses Tackle on him.

Thanks.

 

[Cassio]

I was actually talking about this with some people the other day. Fox's mobility is definitely a quality that needs to mentioned when talking about Fox's strengths, imo its easily is most important one. If you look at fox's mobility numbers he ranks among the top in every category except max horizontal speed (which he can make up for in other ways). Fox's fall speed has its detriments, but it fits well with his character build and played correctly is a great asset to the overall speed and mobility at which he can be played. Although arguably getting 0-death in a MU is too big a hinderance to ever be made up depending on who youre talking to.

But yeah, his dash/walk grab in particular is ridiculous, best in the game, and the mixups it allows him are amazing.

 

[Doc King]

Aura makes it hard to quantify where his kill power is and when he dies both matter in MU, since if he can avoid being killed even in MUs where he dies early, it matters for himself. If he dies early it sucks a lot and can swing a MU.

High risk high reward, etc.

I mean on the flip side.

Weight comparison:
33 Fox 80
34-35 Meta Knight 79
34-35 Pikachu 79
36 Kirby 78
37-38 Mr. Game & Watch 75

Fox's fall speed lets him live vertically well, even then shine makes Uair kills hard, but that isn't where he is going to die, he's going to die horizontally more often than not knowing how Luc kills usually.

So yeah, Fox kills early, but he kinda gets the same treatment back.



You need to stop going in circles with people. We discussed this to the ground already.

We know DDD does better against certain top tiers but he has problems as a whole with high tier instead of specific MUs. We've said this quite a few times, we know you are into this topic a lot but you do bring it up a lot.

I actually hate this topic a lot. It brings nothing but stupid drama that doesn't matter.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I feel like you're exaggerating a little bit. Can you elaborate on up-smash, OoS jump, recovery, nair, utilt, and fair please?

@Usmash - really?

@OoS jump - goes really high making it an incredible and safe escape option when under pressure, can be greatly enhanced by double jump + fair, side B and his ridiculous ground speed. Fast fall speed in combination nair / dair allow to punish a lot of stuff despite his high OoS jump and either move can combo / follow up into something stupid like Dash Attack, grab or dsmash.

@Recovery - like Falco, the recovery itself is really not gimpable in general. His djump fair and his up B [which is the best of the spacies] allow for mix-ups and when a platform is included like on almost all stages ... it's really impossible to predict how a smart Fox will actually recover [the recovery of space animals can generally only be punished on prediction if done right].

@Nair - very solid cross up [safe on many characters' shields] and OoS option [link into Dash attack], little start-up, guaranteed auto cancel and outlasts spotdodges ... just a really powerful sex kick with cross up, bait and follow-up options

@Utilt - counters all cross-ups, comboes into itself at low %, can be used while walking away from the opponent, great follow-up option to cross-up nair and bair. Fresh utikt has surprising knockback, strong grab set-up, puts the opponent in a bad position.

@Fair - good for platform pressure, covers a lot of characters' dead angles while juggling, deals a lot of damage, little lag, can be used for cross-ups and helps his recovery.

I also think his match-ups are underrated. MU chart says he's -1 vs Marth, MK and Kirby but he's actually even with all of them.

 

[C.J.]

A top tier nair.

Ehh, I'd say high tier. It seems right about the same as Sheik's- a slightly worse version of Luigi's nair. Unless I'm missing something of course. It just seem borderline top/high to me.

A high tier fair.

I don't agree with this one much at all =/
Mid-tier, absolutely. A high mid-tier, definitely. Fair is, to me at least, one of the easiest moves in the game to SDI out of and punish- and my SDI is terrible. I can, and have on multiple occasions, literally just held down and gotten out of it and punished with fair/uair/bair.

A top tier anti-juggle trap game.

I hate him for this ._.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigi's nair isn't as good as that of Sheik or Fox. I'm OK with calling it "only" high tier though.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Doc King: Then stop bringing it up

And I really dont think Fox is a High Tier... he just doesnt feel as good as the other High Tiers due to his huge glaring weaknesses with his weight and fall speed. I mean, I GUESS I could see him High Tier if you literally just kept Fox where he is on the list right now, but increased the size of High tier to fit him in, but tbh I still dont think a High Tier character should have any terrible MUs nor have any huge weaknesses. Imo, High Tiers are characters that can hold their own against any other opponent and still do well in nationals and such, even though they are a somewhat noticeable step below Top Tier. The thing is, Fox CANT do that due to the fact that he has 2 MUs where he just gets completely shut down and due to those massive Fall Speed/Light Weight issues.

 

[Doc King]

@Doc King: Then stop bringing it up

And I really dont think Fox is a High Tier... he just doesnt feel as good as the other High Tiers due to his huge glaring weaknesses with his weight and fall speed. I mean, I GUESS I could see him High Tier if you literally just kept Fox where he is on the list right now, but increased the size of High tier to fit him in, but tbh I still dont think a High Tier character should have any terrible MUs nor have any huge weaknesses. Imo, High Tiers are characters that can hold their own against any other opponent and still do well in nationals and such, even though they are a somewhat noticeable step below Top Tier. The thing is, Fox CANT do that due to the fact that he has 2 MUs where he just gets completely shut down and due to those massive Fall Speed/Light Weight issues.

I didn't bring it up, Mr. Anon did.

Also, Wario has horrible matchups against Marth and King Dedede, Falco has horrible matchups against Climbers and Pikachu, G@W has bad matchups against Diddy Kong, Marth, and Climbers, Pikachu has a bad matchup against Olimar, Dedede has horrible matchups against Diddy, Falco, Olimar, and Climbers.

Fox has pretty much the same thing Wario has. a couple or a few hard matchups, but pretty much does alright vs. other top tiers.

 

[Z'zgashi]

-2 =/= Horrible.

-2 is a solid disadvantage, meaning the other character has noticeably better tools/options and just has a solid advantage, it's not horrible by any means.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

To me a high tier character is a character that can't be realistically expected to do well in tourney all by itself but only needs one secondary [not necessarily MK] to cover all his bad match-ups. It really depends though; if that one character has to be used for most of the "important" match-ups then you can't really call it a high tier match-up.

Like, realistically GW can't beat Diddy, IC, Olimar and is much better off with a second against Snake and Marth too. At that point, whatever character you use for these match-ups you can't even call it a "secondary" anymore because that list includes like the entire top 5 minus MK. Similar cases are Peach, ROB or Kirby - like GW, there's no way they will ever be high tier unless you ban like the entire top tier minus one or two characters.

I'd call Pit or Fox high tier because their two or three really bad match-ups can be covered with one secondary character. And I mean an actual "secondary" character - not pocket top tier char that's supposed to deal with all that character's garbage MUs.

 

[-LzR-]

Though G&W doesn't have the best MU against Snake, he definitely shouldn't have a secondary for him. About Diddy, IC and Olimar I agree. G&W sucks.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He still has manageable MUs vs MK, Pika, spacies, Wario, DDD, ZSS ... like all of high tier is doable for GW. He's not straight-up terrible ... just kind of average.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Similar cases are Peach, ROB or Kirby - like GW, there's no way they will ever be high tier unless you ban like the entire top tier minus one or two characters.

Now you are just talking out your ***.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im pretty sure we already went over the fact that Peach doesnt need secondaries lol.

 

[Doc King]

Gheb should've said God tier because mk wrecks Peach a lot.

Dark Peach u were actually right about Peach being so good at camping Dedede. I'm sorry if I was extremely biased about Peach.

Seeing Peach will be successful without mk actually makes me want mk to be legal again because I hate this character.

I actually wonder if Peach is gonna be the next Diddy Kong or something because they both use items a lot.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bananas >Turnips

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Now you are just talking out your ***.

Im pretty sure we already went over the fact that Peach doesnt need secondaries lol.

"We" as in "Dark.Pch, myself, Doc King and 3 or 4 randoms", right?

Gheb should've said God tier because mk wrecks Peach a lot.

So does Snake. Diddy, spacies and DDD are also kind of bad.
And Marth.

 

[Z'zgashi]

We as in pretty much everyone who participated in this threads discussion over a 400+ post period of time about a week ago.

So I'd say at least 20+ people.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We as in pretty much everyone who participated in this threads discussion over a 400+ post period of time about a week ago.

So I'd say at least 20+ randoms.

o ok

 

[Z'zgashi]

Thanks for understand.

 

[BSP]

but up-smash seems kinda predictable (not to mention slow and punishable, though it gets nice distance from his run),

Fox's Usmash is one of the best KO'ing moves in the game IMO. When you get to high percent, you know it's coming, but you also know that you can't make any mistakes, because if you do, you're most likely dead. Fox's speed and the ability to do it OOS make it super dangerous if you ask me.

It does have some ending lag and that's punishable if you shield/spotdodge (but you shouldn't get that much off of a shield. IIRC the shield pushback from the move is rather large), but if Fox uses the move correctly (combo'ing into it, punishing your mistakes at high %), I don't think he should get punished for Usmash much.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thanks Gheb. :3

Fox's Usmash is one of the best KO'ing moves in the game IMO. When you get to high percent, you know it's coming, but you also know that you can't make any mistakes, because if you do, you're most likely dead. Fox's speed and the ability to do it OOS make it super dangerous if you ask me.

It does have some ending lag and that's punishable if you shield/spotdodge (but you shouldn't get that much off of a shield. IIRC the shield pushback from the move is rather large), but if Fox uses the move correctly (combo'ing into it, punishing your mistakes at high %), I don't think he should get punished for Usmash much.

Seems fair enough. I find the move a bit scary lol.

 

[Doc King]

Bananas >Turnips

Yes.

"We" as in "Dark.Pch, myself, Doc King and 3 or 4 randoms", right?



So does Snake. Diddy, spacies and DDD are also kind of bad.
And Marth.

Not Diddy or Dedede. Those are even.

I can agree with the others though.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Im pretty sure we already went over the fact that Peach doesnt need secondaries lol.

In a way she might need one against marth. Like I seen leon and Yami go in on Marths. But That does not change the fact that He can zone on and out on her. Also the fact that I can not pressure him affectively cause of his up-B. My mix ups and frame advantages on shield. are reduce cause of this. The match up I have to rely more on baiting.

Does does not mean Marth can just go up-B happy, for if i wait for it, free hit for me. Getting back on the stage and escaping juggles to touch the floor safe is also a problem. I can take alot of damage from it. or that be my stock. My Ledge options are also not that great on due to his ledge pressure. With the rest of the high thiers, I can atleast get in and pressure the shield and can't attack/punish me OoS. Which I can follow with mixups and if shie goes wrong, I can break away case the enemy would mostly be forced to evade.

Only real thing Peach has on marth that helps to some degree is having Marth over her an edguarding. done right, Marth can die or a timed turnip cancel or Z drop. Yami/Leon also let go of the stage to a falling nair on marth after the Up-B and thats his stock. Peach would take the hit but she does not get hit with the strong part of the move for it to kill her. I need to practice that.

Gheb should've said God tier because mk wrecks Peach a lot.

Dark Peach u were actually right about Peach being so good at camping Dedede. I'm sorry if I was extremely biased about Peach.

Seeing Peach will be successful without mk actually makes me want mk to be legal again because I hate this character.

I actually wonder if Peach is gonna be the next Diddy Kong or something because they both use items a lot.

Don't worry about it, I cone come here and debate with people to fight. Im a member of this community that brings info and helps others with peach. And setting her view on her meta game straight. Thats all I care about. So just forget it ever happen.

I do not thing she would be the next diddy. Though I can really say anything on this for sure cause there hasnt been a Peach that abuses her turnips mix with Zdrop mixups to a high degree. it might be only a few times in a match but not as heavy as when a solid diddy has his bananas. When I see a peach do that for sure, then I can trully judge and comment on that. Until, its just an unknown logic.

peach is the most technical character in this game. And Peach really don't abuse all her techs to a high degree. And yes, I mean ALL. I always said and felt that Peach is like a melee fox and diddy is like a Melee falco.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you think Peach goes even with Diddy you're putting the most vague theorycrafting imagineable on a higher level than results and common sense.

Edit: Aerodrom, we're in the same skye chat group afaik. If you want I can tell you some more about Fox.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If you think Peach goes even with Diddy you're putting the most vague theorycrafting imagineable on a higher level than results and common sense.

The only one that is lacking the common sense and has been for years in match ups is you. Unlike you, I don't sit behind a computer all day watching vids and think I know it all. I actually do my homework, I test my options, I experiment things and learn what works and does not work. I have the experience, I play these match ups daily. I all try new things to learn new things. Some new things work, and others don't. And I take account into it all.

You seriously don't know any of my characters options when it comes to situation that occur in her match ups. Cause you see other peach players fail at it, you straight up think it's legit for the character she is fighting.

You let results and lack of info on match up options determind what you THINK you know. Just how before when the lucarios thought they can stop my shield pressure with OoS uptilts. which out considering how long that takes and also the fact that you have to drop the shield for that. THEN the attack comes out. But because of that, I take advantage and get a free hit for it cause people like you don't do their homework.

Which is just fine, cause it makes it easier for me to win matches. I gladly take advantage the lack of common sense in match ups people fail to have.