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Official BBR Tier List v6

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_Kain_

_Kain_

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I could see Falco going down, since he kinda gets owned really bad in 2 MU's.
 
Dre89

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_Kain_ said:
If a PT somehow wins a National there could be many variables that took part in why he won, say his bracket for instance? What if he didn't run into the MU's that make PT non viable? Not running into key players or characters can play a big role in how far certain characters actually make it in bracket.

That and the fact that there is one high level PT player, if none can replicate what he does, then how can we judge whether it's the character or the player. If other PT players have failed where he has succeded it can only mean that he is far above in player skill, if none can even come close to what he can do. So it is safe to assume that he is an outlier
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Suppose this one player continuously beats high level players in MUs he should be losing, or wins two nationals in a row.

You'll say 'well people will eventually learn the MU and beat him' well that's the future metagame, not the current metagame. As far as I understand, tier lists are supposed to reflect the current metagame, not non-contextual, objective viability.
 
Nidtendofreak

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Linkshot said:
How hard a character is to master does not affect its full potential.

Perhaps Reflex is the only person that has unlocked that potential, but it's there, and that's what viability is.

If the player can do it, clearly the character is able. It's logically impossible to use a character in a way it can't perform.
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That argument was brought up back when Reflex was putting in work with PT. As you can clearly tell by the tier list movements, that argument doesn't hold water. A Ganondorf won an MK banned tournament, I haven't see people arguing that he should rise up over Jigglypuff, Zelda, Link and the like who haven't done so. I mean hey, didn't he show is viability by pulling that off? :troll:

There are two different sets of skills being used in a fight: character related skills, and universal skills. Character skills are self-evident; they are skills related only to that character. There is also a set level for how useful they are, some character just don't have as many skills related to them directly that help in a match. Universal skills are things such as reaction times, power shielding, etc. If a person's universal skills are high enough, they can overcome the low amount of skills the character brings to the match.

It's just too many variables if it's only one person.


C.J. said:
Niddo, I've always wondered something...

Why do you never hate on Falco? No Falco puts up anything close to what DEHF does. And with DEHF taking periodic breaks, there have been LONG stretches of time with Falco putting up lack-luster results. Not that they put up "Falco should be mid tier results" level, but top 4 still?
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Honestly? I don't pay much attention to the top 10. I only thought about Pikachu at all because of Nike's video. I don't really know how Falco's results and mains stack up to those directly next to him, so no argument from me. *shrugs*

Orion* said:
You also asked if Anther/Esam ever dominated together at the same time, in response to there has always been at least 1 good pikachu, continuously made arguments legitimately just for the sake of making them and ignored good posts directed at you.
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Yes, I asked because I honestly don't know. I don't have every result memorized. If they have then obviously one of my points is wrong and I will admit as much.

I respond to basically every post directed at me, so I don't see the "ignore good posts" thing at all. I ain't Jebus thank you very much. Feel free to point out ones I might have missed though.

half the time you post **** you just make some salty *** post about why X character is bad/good by YOUR standards, completely ignoring FACTS laid out, results (many times which you have no knowledge of), and other peoples set ideas. It's cool if you want to do things your way, but that's not how the rest of the world works. Even if you disagree maybe you would actually learn something instead of scrubbing up this board for the past year or more if you actually would look into more than your flat headed ideology.

/salt
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If I'm salty, you're a salt mine dude. There is thing little thing called "debating" you may want to look into. It's when two or more people present their arguments, and then go back and forth attacking the other side's argument (but not the person actually debating), more times then not neither side change their stance. It happens to be something I enjoy doing every now and then. It's also different from me just stirring things up to get a reaction, in which case I will attack the other person. In this situations I feel I have a point, but don't think it's even worth arguing about, or that any arguments I would have brought up were already brought up by others.

Facts I'm not ignoring. Anther is still active, I did not know that before because like I said: I don't have every result memorized. Nor am I going to look up every single tournament for the last few months before I take a stab at something. However, how you should look at characters when it comes to tier lists are largely opinion based. For example: do you look at the whole world, or just your continent? Both sides of that have their arguments, but you can't objectively say one side is "factually" more correct than the other. What I'm arguing over right now is simply another opinion based thing: what is the cut-off for a) outlier results and b) mains that were influential but no longer play. There is no "factual" way to draw a line in the sand and go "Here is the cut-off point exactly".

I should also add: I generally speaking don't argue about say, how a character should be played. Because funny enough I know I don't know how every character should be played. So no, generally speaking I don't "argue about things I have no knowledge about" many times. Because hey, I can't even set up my side of a debate if I don't know about it. I may ask a question or two like "Hey, couldn't he have done X in Y situation", but even that's fairly rare.

As for learning: well, I learned that it takes roughly two pages in default settings for you to reply to a debate/argument. At least, in this situation it did. I also learned you like to focus on one thing and blow it out of proportion in a hissy fit out of nowhere. Not that it's not entertaining though, because it is. Please continue.
 
-LzR-

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About as ridiculous as like 10 other characters spotdodges. Oh and the others also have a shield.
 
Z'zgashi

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^ And Toon Link (he matters imo)

The one that doesnt matter is Link.
 
C.J.

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I think it's a less broken version of DDD's. I think it goes into the Z-axis but nobody's ever confirmed or refuted that so ionno.
 
Z'zgashi

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It was awesome cuz Side Step > Dsmash. Dsmash comes out fast, has good range, and is a great GTFO move for ROB that back then was stupid hard to punish.
 
CowboyFromHell

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I honestly don't think Kirby should be higher than Luigi. I tear up Kirbys all the time as a Luigi, mostly because a lot of their moves leave them open to a shoryuken. Just one guy's opinion.
 
infiniteV115

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Just because X beats Y, doesn't mean X should be higher on the tier list than Y.
DDD beats Marth, Snake and Wario.
Sheik beats Fox.
ZSS beats ICs.
etc

A tier list (more or less) corresponds with how good a character's overall MU spread is. Characters that beat a lot of other characters are higher up, characters that lose to a lot of others are lower down.
 
C.J.

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He's not.

He also 3stocked FOW, then got 3 stocked by FOW (or the other way around), then went to last stock game 3 iirc
 
Cassio

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Honestly I wouldnt read too much into that. Luigis only tough as a novelty imo and hasnt been around for people to know how to fight him. No doubt concon is great, but I'd wait awhile before making a verdict. Plus he also lost to vato's diddy and Z's pika, who are supposed to be strong MUs for luigi (although I think pika vs luigi is worse for luigi than indicated).
 
Z'zgashi

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Imo Luigi should be the second to last mid tier char right above Mario (yes, I said Mario. Imo, he has potential to be in mid with MK gone). PT should be Low tier imo, Reflex is the only reason he isnt low tier, and he has barely touched him for like, 2 years. I think it's time he dips back down there again. Low Mid imo should go:

DK > Yoshi > Sheik > Ness > Luigi > Mario

And yeah, I would put Ike at the bottom of mid instead of Low Mid.

Btw, just so you dont all flame me and such, these are all my opinion when it comes to POTENTIAL, that doesnt necessarily mean the characters have proven themselves, it's more me predicting what I think will happen once the MK banned meta game begins to evolve.
 
SFA Smiley

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i was writing a long post about why i think Luigi should be mid-tier after i thought someone said he was low tier and when i went to look at the characters he was surrounded by i realized that he was still mid tier. As you were...

Also Squirtle is good and Charizard is usable i think PT should stay mid tier personally. However I feel that Ivysaur is like Ganon bad, i'm not even joking. The more i screw around with PT the more I feel that way.
 
Z'zgashi

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Ivy isnt Ganon bad at all. She's like, Samus or Falcon bad. But then when fatigue kicks in she's Link or Jiggs bad.
 
Z'zgashi

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Yeah, Ivy makes Link's recovery look good sometimes...

The only reason I think she's actually decent is cuz she has pretty nice range on her aerials and tilts, and actually has decent kill power.
 
KuroganeHammer

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Ivy's bair walls everything in the game. It's a shame it only does like, 4-6%.

I can only assume Ivysaur was supposed to be made defensively like Zelda, but due to crap projectile and poor aerial mobility, she was bound to suck in Brawl.

Ivy's d-smash is hilariously bad though. It doesn't even have a decent sound effect.
 
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