Official BBR Tier List v6

[Nidtendofreak]

When I went to MLG Columbus (the one that capped out at 256) I believe ESAM got 5th, anther got like 9th or 13th or something and Pikapika got 33rd.

Also, your ike example doesnt correlate to this situation, because nobody is making the claim that 'Ike shouldnt move up on the tier list because theres only been one good Ike main/the 2 ike mains that were ever good werent active at the same time.

If that Pikachu example works, then I could increase argue that Ike's standing should increase due to Kirk/Dr.Doom/Ryo/San, even though the later two are no longer active and thus aren't relative to the current metagame. It correlates because you are potentially arguing that people who no longer effect the current metagame can effect the tier list.

Is Anther still active now and getting those kind of results? I honestly don't know.

 

[Ussi]

Ike is a terrible character and you should feel bad for trying to raise his spot on the tier list

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike for top tier! His fsmash is that good!

 

[Ussi]

Serious:

With both Ryo and San being amazing Ikes, i think Ike might merit a raise actually. I'm waiting for Apex before I really say anything about it though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If that Pikachu example works, then I could increase argue that Ike's standing should increase due to Kirk/Dr.Doom/Ryo/San, even though the later two are no longer active and thus aren't relative to the current metagame. It correlates because you are potentially arguing that people who no longer effect the current metagame can effect the tier list.

Is Anther still active now and getting those kind of results? I honestly don't know.

the point is that your bias is clearly showing and at this point the only reasoning you can give for not moving pikachu up is because you personally feel that its not warrented based on whatever warped standards you hold. And those probably arent even the same for different characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You haven't presented any other arguing points. Nothing else for me to argue about atm.

That, and you didn't refute my last point at all. In fact, you attacked the presenter, but not the argument.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Unless im wrong, I stated that it would be completely valid for pikachu to move up.

You respond with pikachu shouldnt move up because esam is just an outlier and not indicative of how good the character actually is.

I say that thats wrong and that there have been multiple pikachu players performing at the same relative level as him throughout brawls lifespan.

you then go into some unrelated point about how long each person has been active and what not.

as far as Im concerned you really dont have a leg to stand on here.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You're missing my post about character's metagame level = where multiple mains of that character is. Meaning how long each person is active is relevant, because if there was only ever one at a time/their overlap times were insignificant, the character has simply always had an outlier main. It just wasn't always the same outlier because the metagame evolves, and at certain parts of it's evolution it had a certain main outlier.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I'd probably expect the top tier to look like this with MK gone:

( ) ( )

"()" means interchangeable

So i would say Pikachu would be 7th

I actually pretty much agree with this. I do however think Marth > Falco and Wario should be above Pika, but those are just my opinion.

 

[Orion*]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246375

two pikachus both in top 8 at a national at one time derp

edit: snake is definitely moving down regardless character is ***. falco is starting to move down in my book also

 

[Z'zgashi]

Too bad that tournament is from back in 09 lol.

 

[Dre89]

Why does a character need to have multiple high level mains?

Unless I'm mistaken, the tier list is supposed to reflect how viable a character. If someone wins a national with pika, are you saying he isn't a viable char to win a national because he's only got one main?

The top main reflects the peak of that character's metagame. If a pika wins a national, then that shows that if played well enough he has the tools to go all the way. His tools and viability don't change when other mains perform or don't perform.

 

[Juushichi]

Anther got 5th at an MI tournament last weekend, iirc. At the very least, he's playing again.

Results were: Shugo(Falco/MK/Pit)>Sparta Kick(Snake)>Zinoto(Diddy)>Lain(IC/MK)>Roller(IC)/Anther(Pika)

 

[Cassio]

God that signature is ridiculous.

Pikachu's had 3 different players who've placed top 8 in nationals. Its fine to refer to old players as long as you add context (to either include or disclude them). The reason you write off older players is because usually the characters evolved for better or worse. While thats true for pikachu too, referencing a player who consistently achieved top 8 at nationals and frequently listed as top 5 or 10 in the nation can still be relevant to a characters capabilities especially when said character has only improved his performance. Its not like this is some local Ike player placing in regionals or something.

So, in more relevant news: who is expecting overrated Pikachu MU numbers, which in turn will lead to Pikachu having an overrated tier location next update?

What MU numbers are overrated? What would an overrated tier location be? Honestly right now pikachu is probably the lowest he could be.

Basically what the others are saying/what I argued about with PT for like a year until I was finally proven correct

You said the same thing about Fox too, that turned out well

But it's (as far as I remember) always only one guy really active at a time.

I could be wrong of course, but I can only remember ESAM placing well as of late.

ESAMs the only one at top-level, but theres defnitely improvement from 08-09 in mid-high level play in general. Although the difference between between the 1st and 2nd best pikas vs the rest was rather disgusting back then.

 

[M@v]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246375

two pikachus both in top 8 at a national at one time derp

edit: snake is definitely moving down regardless character is ***. falco is starting to move down in my book also

In a mk banned environment, I 100% agree Falco is going to move down. In a Mk legal environment, I still thinks he's fourth. One of the strongest mk mus outside the ditto and with all the mks running around, it cuts down the pikachus and ice climbers.

 

[Ussi]

but MK vs Pikachu is even

Pikachu loses to random characters like Peach

Spoiler

in practice

Also loses to Olimar and ICs though

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why does a character need to have multiple high level mains?

Unless I'm mistaken, the tier list is supposed to reflect how viable a character. If someone wins a national with pika, are you saying he isn't a viable char to win a national because he's only got one main?

The top main reflects the peak of that character's metagame. If a pika wins a national, then that shows that if played well enough he has the tools to go all the way. His tools and viability don't change when other mains perform or don't perform.

Reflex Syndrom basically. If it's only one person, you can't prove that the character is actually that good, not just one guy who's amazing and could pull of that kind of placement with multiple characters. So his viability does actually in fact change...largely because you haven't actually proven it yet. If this wasn't the case, PT would be higher than he currently is.

Anther got 5th at an MI tournament last weekend, iirc. At the very least, he's playing again.

Results were: Shugo(Falco/MK/Pit)>Sparta Kick(Snake)>Zinoto(Diddy)>Lain(IC/MK)>Roller(IC)/Anther(Pika)

That's good to know. How large of a tournament was this?

God that signature is ridiculous.

Pikachu's had 3 different players who've placed top 8 in nationals. Its fine to refer to old players as long as you add context (to either include or disclude them). The reason you write off older players is because usually the characters evolved for better or worse. While thats true for pikachu too, referencing a player who consistently achieved top 8 at nationals and frequently listed as top 5 or 10 in the nation can still be relevant to a characters capabilities especially when said character has only improved his performance. Its not like this is some local Ike player placing in regionals or something.

What MU numbers are overrated? What would an overrated tier location be? Honestly right now pikachu is probably the lowest he could be.


You said the same thing about Fox too, that turned out well


ESAMs the only one at top-level, but theres defnitely improvement from 08-09 in mid-high level play in general. Although the difference between between the 1st and 2nd best pikas vs the rest was rather disgusting back then.

1) Fox is still overrated. I'm just hoping common sense will prevail, and now that MK is gone and he can't bank on his MK MU that he will drop.

2) I said "Who thinks his MU numbers will be overrated?". It has been suggested by Nike's video that this may be the case. Thus, I was asking for people's opinions.

3) As you said, the metagame changes, which is exactly why you can't cling to people who no longer play for very long when considering things like tier position. If they haven't played for a substantial amount of time you obviously can't tell how well they would actually do now. You can reference their past achievements yes, but that does not mean said achievements effect the current metagame.

Anther is still playing however, so Pikachu may actually have multiple high level players at this time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

your method of rationalizing is kind of dumb.

how does it make sence to say pikachu had reflex syndrome with anther, and than had it with pikapika, and than had it with esam. but somehow even though theres been 3 players bringing in national level results, its still somehow not proving that the character is part of the reasoning behind these placings.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because it's still only one of them pulling off those kinds of results at a time. Again, metagame evolves. Player A was good when the metagame was in stage 1, Player B was good when the metagame was in stage 2, Player C was good when the metagame was in stage 3. If we're in stage 3 in this situation, then the current metagame only has one top level player for that character. If said player is well above the rest of the players for that character, you can't prove that for the current metagame (which is what the tier list is a reflection of: current metagame) that it's not just the player.

It's the same general problem, just compartmentalized. I really don't see why this is such a struggle to grasp. It's a simple concept.

 

[Cassio]

Because its a really weird/awkward way to compare and analyze it, lol.

 

[Dre89]

Reflex Syndrom basically. If it's only one person, you can't prove that the character is actually that good, not just one guy who's amazing and could pull of that kind of placement with multiple characters. So his viability does actually in fact change...largely because you haven't actually proven it yet. If this wasn't the case, PT would be higher than he currently is.

So even if Reflex won a national with PT, you'd still say PT isn't a national viable character? Whether or not that'll ever happen is irrelevant to the point.

How many players perform that well with him doesn't change the fact that the character has the tools to win a national.

It's as if you're saying the character's tools change depending on how many people perform with that character.

PT may theoretically lose a lot of MUs, but if he wins a national, then that shows that in this current metagame he has the tools to win a national. Saying that he doesn't simply because only one person did it is ridiculous. What would happen if 3 more PTs did it after that? All of the sudden PT has viable tools now, despite being the same character the whole time?

And what are you saying, that a character's metagame is where the majority of its mains are skill wise? So you're saying you can a player like Reflex beyond the character's metagame? That doesn't make sense at all.

 

[_Kain_]

So even if Reflex won a national with PT, you'd still say PT isn't a national viable character? Whether or not that'll ever happen is irrelevant to the point.

How many players perform that well with him doesn't change the fact that the character has the tools to win a national.

It's as if you're saying the character's tools change depending on how many people perform with that character.

PT may theoretically lose a lot of MUs, but if he wins a national, then that shows that in this current metagame he has the tools to win a national. Saying that he doesn't simply because only one person did it is ridiculous. What would happen if 3 more PTs did it after that? All of the sudden PT has viable tools now, despite being the same character the whole time?

And what are you saying, that a character's metagame is where the majority of its mains are skill wise? So you're saying you can a player like Reflex beyond the character's metagame? That doesn't make sense at all.

If a PT somehow wins a National there could be many variables that took part in why he won, say his bracket for instance? What if he didn't run into the MU's that make PT non viable? Not running into key players or characters can play a big role in how far certain characters actually make it in bracket.

That and the fact that there is one high level PT player, if none can replicate what he does, then how can we judge whether it's the character or the player. If other PT players have failed where he has succeded it can only mean that he is far above in player skill, if none can even come close to what he can do. So it is safe to assume that he is an outlier

 

[da K.I.D.]

But thats not the case with pikachu. which is why im confused at the same line of logic being applied to him.

 

[_Kain_]

Pikachu has already had 2 high level national players already, along with some other capable players who could also place high at a national/regional level

I am also confused

 

[Orion*]

Too bad that tournament is from back in 09 lol.

I don't see you *****ing @ niddo for bringing in old *** players into his argument LMAO

In a mk banned environment, I 100% agree Falco is going to move down. In a Mk legal environment, I still thinks he's fourth. One of the strongest mk mus outside the ditto and with all the mks running around, it cuts down the pikachus and ice climbers.

Maybe. i honestly dont think of like popularity that much as far as tier lists go, because it all changes in trends and what region you're in. Either that or you can theory craft what the trend should be? meh, just look at the overall viability vs the cast imo, and then worry about that kind of stuff it shouldnt be major if it's a viable character anyway.

your method of rationalizing is kind of dumb.

how does it make sence to say pikachu had reflex syndrome with anther, and than had it with pikapika, and than had it with esam. but somehow even though theres been 3 players bringing in national level results, its still somehow not proving that the character is part of the reasoning behind these placings.

Well he didnt respond to me anyway but i remembered/posted a result of a tournament with 2 pikachus in the same national. So unless it's metagame
A
B
(B/C???)
and C

then there's something wrong

Because it's still only one of them pulling off those kinds of results at a time.

derp

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If a PT somehow wins a National there could be many variables that took part in why he won, say his bracket for instance? What if he didn't run into the MU's that make PT non viable? Not running into key players or characters can play a big role in how far certain characters actually make it in bracket.

That and the fact that there is one high level PT player, if none can replicate what he does, then how can we judge whether it's the character or the player. If other PT players have failed where he has succeded it can only mean that he is far above in player skill, if none can even come close to what he can do. So it is safe to assume that he is an outlier

What he said.

Pikachu has already had 2 high level national players already, along with some other capable players who could also place high at a national/regional level

I am also confused

Is it two at the same time to avoid the situation above, or not?

I don't see you *****ing @ niddo for bringing in old *** players into his argument LMAO

I was saying old players don't apply to the current metagame, not that they do. That may be why?

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu is turning into a better falco than falco. Although given the state of the game who knows how far thatll go. I could see Falco moving down even with MK legal.

 

[Judo777]

Every character technically has the tools to win a national. It's called the powershield.....

 

[Ripple]

D3 can beat DK without attacking his shield once

 

[Linkshot]

That and the fact that there is one high level PT player, if none can replicate what he does, then how can we judge whether it's the character or the player.

How hard a character is to master does not affect its full potential.

Perhaps Reflex is the only person that has unlocked that potential, but it's there, and that's what viability is.

If the player can do it, clearly the character is able. It's logically impossible to use a character in a way it can't perform.

Every character technically has the tools to win a national. It's called the powershield.....

What about Frame Perfect SDI?

 

[Judo777]

D3 can beat DK without attacking his shield once

If I could powershield everything tho it would be hard as hell. Like I would just attack you with Giant Punches all day from platforms and you couldn't pressure me because 1 attack is punished because I PS everything lol.

 

[C.J.]

Niddo, I've always wondered something...

Why do you never hate on Falco? No Falco puts up anything close to what DEHF does. And with DEHF taking periodic breaks, there have been LONG stretches of time with Falco putting up lack-luster results. Not that they put up "Falco should be mid tier results" level, but top 4 still?

 

[Ussi]

But... Falco won a national

 

[C.J.]

Ussi, I'm not saying Falco should be lower. I'm saying that due to Niddo's criteria, I'm confused as to the lack of Falco hate. If Falco won a national and other Falcos don't put up similar results (they don't), then DEHF should be considered an outlier and have relevance on how good of a character Falco is- unless I'm grossly misunderstanding Niddo's logic. If I am, then retracted.

 

[Orion*]

I was saying old players don't apply to the current metagame, not that they do. That may be why?

You also asked if Anther/Esam ever dominated together at the same time, in response to there has always been at least 1 good pikachu, continuously made arguments legitimately just for the sake of making them and ignored good posts directed at you.

half the time you post **** you just make some salty *** post about why X character is bad/good by YOUR standards, completely ignoring FACTS laid out, results (many times which you have no knowledge of), and other peoples set ideas. It's cool if you want to do things your way, but that's not how the rest of the world works. Even if you disagree maybe you would actually learn something instead of scrubbing up this board for the past year or more if you actually would look into more than your flat headed ideology.

/salt

But... Falco won a national

outlier/one player similar to tkd by niddos standards LMAO

 

[Judo777]

Ussi, I'm not saying Falco should be lower. I'm saying that due to Niddo's criteria, I'm confused as to the lack of Falco hate. If Falco won a national and other Falcos don't put up similar results (they don't), then DEHF should be considered an outlier and have relevance on how good of a character Falco is- unless I'm grossly misunderstanding Niddo's logic. If I am, then retracted.

Haha this is a funny point actually never thought of it. Falco really doesn't put in the work required for his spot. He just seems like one of those characters that everyone just KNOWS is super good and so they keep him up top.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I don't see you *****ing @ niddo for bringing in old *** players into his argument LMAO

Lol, I wasnt *****ing, just pointing out that that was an old tournament.

 

[Noxx]

Falco manages top because of chain grab?

 

[Z'zgashi]

That and arguably the best projectile in the game, a great jab, a top notch camping game, legit kill power and setups, and more.

 

[-LzR-]

Falco can own you at close range, camp you at long range and phantasm to safety to regain these positions when he needs them.
Also his grabgame is awesome outside of his CG too.