Official BBR Tier List v5

[T-block]

Yeah Jiggs has a slick dash grab. Deceptive range with the way she jumps forward.

 

[Ishiey]

Can Jigglypuff still combo into utilt if the opponent SDIs dair properly? Barring a trip of course.

San, I guess everything you said is true, and what ADHD said about dashgrab is true too (Jiggz's dashgrab/dashattack mixup too good ) idk though, her flaws are still so exploitable in my eyes... I'm starting to think that maybe I'm biased because simple Wolf gameplay is quite the pain for Jiggz, idk. I tried picking her up once upon a time for the hell of it, and the impression I got was that she really does have some solid tools but they can't make up for her basic flaws :/ in the end, I suppose I stand by my initial exaggerated oversimplification of "outrange or keep on trading hits and kill her 40%+ lower than she'll kill you"

 

[Z'zgashi]

As a jiggs user, I'd say Jiggs has a lot of useful tools in multiple situations, but overall, they just dont make up for the countless thinks she lacks or sucks at which still makes her one of the worst in the game.

 

[Fuujin]

I know this isn't solid reasoning, but when I see videos of a good Zelda vs another good player (that probably doesn't really know the MU, but whatever) it's much more impressive than videos of Link/Jigglypuff vs good players, probably Falcon as well. Maybe Riot is just significantly better than any of the Link/Jiggz mains that I've seen, idk.

Are there any good videos of top Link/Jigglypuff players that someone can link in here?

You think watching a good Zelda is more impressive than watching a good link??
Have you seen a good link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cMiaFCCRXQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWlWFAnS-A
Link is arguably the the low tier with the most complex metagame.

I like my character but Zelda doing well = the opponent running into or failing to block/dodge her attacks.

How does Jigglypuff reliably kill people?

How does any low tier reliably kill people?

 

[Juushichi]

Mario has... huehuehuehue. ...Gimps?

I got nothin. Lucas does have sort of reliable kill moves though.

 

[Fuujin]

I got nothin. Lucas does have sort of reliable kill moves though.

Yeah sort of, they all seem sorta gimmicky.
But his stick is really strong x_x.

 

[Flayl]

To me it seems like FSmash is his only reliable kill move. The DTilt jab lock helps, but Lucas's KO reliability seems like a con rather than a pro.

 

[Fuujin]

To me it seems like FSmash is his only reliable kill move. The DTilt jab lock helps, but Lucas's KO reliability seems like a con rather than a pro.

I think in many cases he's stuck relying on his f tilt, which has mediocre knockback.
It can kill the very light characters though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think like 90% of the people who say Link is bottom tier have never watched a good Link play.

That isn't to say Link is good, but he has a decent mix-up game and a better projectile game than Samus at least.

 

[Albert.]

Thoughts on some Low tiers and why they worry me:

Yoshi: UHG! Yoshi! He's actually got a really really solid approach & keep away game, he's going to try and time me out -__-
Lucas: Uhg this guy's zoning and camping are actually pretty lagless, he's the MK of low tier when it comes to speed/Power/options
Link: This m********** is gonna camp me more than the first two! -__-. and just like the first two, he shouldn't win, but he has the capability to, if he breaks my focus down enough
Jigglypuff: Why do I have to play all these low tiers in tourney?? It's not fun because all of them have way more match-up experience than I do, K, fine. gets out-zoned out-ranged too hard and his reliable kill moves start killing at 179, next?
Zelda: GUHDFHGDUFHG IM GONNA DIE AT 70% to somethign stupid. (still win though)
Ganon: If I let this braindead ganon player get one of his stupid 0-50 ganon combos on me, He'll never let me hear the end of it -___-

 

[Yikarur]

Link, low tier with the most complex meta-game!
aka spotdodging all day because the OoS OPtions suck :x

@above you played too much Delta LOL

 

[san.]

I think like 90% of the people who say Link is bottom tier have never watched a good Link play.

That isn't to say Link is good, but he has a decent mix-up game and a better projectile game than Samus at least.

Played Kirin, still think Link is probably bottom tier. Or just group most of the bottom half of low tiers in one tier since they really aren't that different.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's cool. I mean, it isn't like most people don't agree with you. :|

I think Link has more options than most of low tier, and I think his recovery is underrated too.

san, your signature cracks me up LOL

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Link is bad, and I'm starting to think that Samus's projectile game is better, which is saying something, because Samus's projectiles aren't very good.

I wonder if Samus has some potential these days. I've been using her a lot. If the opponent doesn't have an obnoxious approaching game (like Diddy), her options really aren't that bad in general.

 

[Albert.]

Also: Lucas should scare you guys, he scares me. Have any of you played anybody on the level of Galeon or Pink Fresh? f***ing scary, way worse for me than playing a Snake, Falco, Diddy, Wario.

What you guys dont seem to get about Lucas's kill moves, hell, most characters' kill moves, (Marth/Meta/Snake in particular) is that even if you avoid those "reliable" bread-and-butter kill moves killing you, It's not like you're gonna live anyway.

Let me reiterate something that Junk taught me: All characters at high level play have their solid bread-and-butter kill moves/options. just some relevant character examples:
MetaKnight: Dsmash, Nair, UpB, Fsmash
Marth: Nair, Fsmash, UpB
Snake: Utilt, Ftilt, Bair

That doesn't mean that, once you get to kill percent, and you start playing "smartly and safely" that you're going to be able to just live to 200% every stock.... It means that the other player isn't going to put himself in laggy position by whiffing these attacks, instead, he's gonna kill you with his secondary moves once you get to the 120-150 range.

Secondary kill moves that are mad useful:
MetaKnight: Fsmash, Uair, Dair, Glide attack, Uthrow/Bthrow, Fair, half of the rest of his moveset.
Marth: Fair, Nair, Bair, UAir, Dsmash, half of the rest of his moveset.
Snake: Ftilt, Ftilt, Ftilt, Nades, Usmash, dash attack, More than half of the rest of his moveset.

And lo and behold, young theory crafter, if you have something to say in the realm of "Well a lot of these kill moves don't really kill well when they have expert-mode DI like most top players have"

Well, young one, These moves will still consistently put you in a bad position. See if Diddy's Bair or Fair doesn't kill you when you're at 140, You're still stuck trying to get to the ground safely while he has time to re-set his Nana tent and make your "landing lag" a living hell to deal with AND/OR force you to the ledge and set up a solid ledge-trap.

Do you see the point now guys, of discussing the futility of "reliable" kill moves? This isn't 2009, people are struggling and forcing to get their kills anymore, they either time you out or they hit you with a zoning move at 150 and you die due to the physics of the game.

Understanding this concept and knowing your characters' and your oponenets characters' options (when it comes time for killing) AND HOW to handle your character's zoning when you're in this situation, (chip damage ftw) Is one of the main things I think that seperates a lot of the mid-level players from the upper-middle players that are chipping away at the ceiling of higher level play.

 

[Albert.]

Reflex, I see your point regarding Samus's camping/annoy game, (Can I hear a ZAir anybody??) but I raise you the two points that, in the grand scheme of things, -Link lives longer than Samus, consistently. (weight, plus top player DI means Link living to 180% consistently,) and -Link has better reliable secondary kill moves than her (Fair, Bair, Dsmash, ETC),

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, I see your point regarding Samus's camping/annoy game, (Can I hear a ZAir anybody??) but I raise you the two points that, in the grand scheme of things, -Link lives longer than Samus, consistently. (weight, plus top player DI means Link living to 180% consistently,) and -Link has better reliable secondary kill moves than her (Fair, Bair, Dsmash, ETC),

Though Link does often live to higher percentages, I wouldn't say it's particularly consistent. Link is fairly susceptible to getting gimped at low-to-mid percentages, whereas Samus definitely isn't. Moves that send opponents more-or-less horizontally will give Link much more trouble to deal with. While both characters can catch a ledge with Z-Air after getting sent straight horizontally, Samus's is faster and has more range, increasing the percent that she can live through such moves and giving her more moves that she can protect herself from (since DI'ing to go sideways might still put you slightly above the ledge area, which Link won't always be able to reach). That said, of course, Link is king when it comes to surviving vertically, though Samus is pretty heavy, at least.

Also, in the event that they mess up DI (or that they just get hit by Shuttle Loop, hahah), Link is usually out of luck, whereas Samus can usually bring herself back with little trouble. Link has more trouble dealing with edgeguarding, as well. While smart use of bombs, boomerang, and a great fastfall combined with the ability to airdodge -> Z-Air to the ledge do help a lot, there are still problems with characters who have great range or mobility in the air, and Link has to freeze for a while in order to use a projectile, which can cost him in certain situations. Samus's Homing Missiles can be used to keep an area clear before you go for the ledge, and Z-Air is instantaneous and safe to use if someone gets in your face. Samus can also stall in mid-air with her Down-B, which can be a problem for characters with multiple jumps who go to great lengths to screw you. Link just cries softly to himself when Dedede throws out B-Air repeatedly.

As far as reliable KO moves, Link's D-Smash by itself is enough to prove that point, hahah. Still, F-Air is quite situational as a KO move (and the first hit can be SDI'd) and B-Air doesn't really count as a KO move. I would say that Link has U-Air, D-Air, D-Smash, F-Smash, and the occasional tilt. That said, Samus isn't as empty as I once thought. Her premier KO move, D-Tilt, KOs reliably around 120-130% against most characters, which is about when you can expect to KO characters with Link's D-Smash, and it's about as fast. Both F-Smash and D-Smash come out quite quickly. F-Smash KOs at about 130% and D-Smash KOs at about 140%. U-Tilt KOs at about the same percentage as D-Tilt if they're in the air, and it perfectly counters most jumping from the ledge. There's also her Charge Shot, which is a good KO move in itself and can be easy to land on many recovering opponents.

 

[Conviction]

Also: Lucas should scare you guys, he scares me. Have any of you played anybody on the level of Galeon or Pink Fresh? f***ing scary, way worse for me than playing a Snake, Falco, Diddy, Wario.

What you guys dont seem to get about Lucas's kill moves, hell, most characters' kill moves, (Marth/Meta/Snake in particular) is that even if you avoid those "reliable" bread-and-butter kill moves killing you, It's not like you're gonna live anyway.

Let me reiterate something that Junk taught me: All characters at high level play have their solid bread-and-butter kill moves/options. just some relevant character examples:
MetaKnight: Dsmash, Nair, UpB, Fsmash
Marth: Nair, Fsmash, UpB
Snake: Utilt, Ftilt, Bair

That doesn't mean that, once you get to kill percent, and you start playing "smartly and safely" that you're going to be able to just live to 200% every stock.... It means that the other player isn't going to put himself in laggy position by whiffing these attacks, instead, he's gonna kill you with his secondary moves once you get to the 120-150 range.

Secondary kill moves that are mad useful:
MetaKnight: Fsmash, Uair, Dair, Glide attack, Uthrow/Bthrow, Fair, half of the rest of his moveset.
Marth: Fair, Nair, Bair, UAir, Dsmash, half of the rest of his moveset.
Snake: Ftilt, Ftilt, Ftilt, Nades, Usmash, dash attack, More than half of the rest of his moveset.

And lo and behold, young theory crafter, if you have something to say in the realm of "Well a lot of these kill moves don't really kill well when they have expert-mode DI like most top players have"

Well, young one, These moves will still consistently put you in a bad position. See if Diddy's Bair or Fair doesn't kill you when you're at 140, You're still stuck trying to get to the ground safely while he has time to re-set his Nana tent and make your "landing lag" a living hell to deal with AND/OR force you to the ledge and set up a solid ledge-trap.

Do you see the point now guys, of discussing the futility of "reliable" kill moves? This isn't 2009, people are struggling and forcing to get their kills anymore, they either time you out or they hit you with a zoning move at 150 and you die due to the physics of the game.

Understanding this concept and knowing your characters' and your oponenets characters' options (when it comes time for killing) AND HOW to handle your character's zoning when you're in this situation, (chip damage ftw) Is one of the main things I think that seperates a lot of the mid-level players from the upper-middle players that are chipping away at the ceiling of higher level play.

Thanks this mad useful dog.

*goes to save this post so it can be looked over again*

 

[T-block]

Can Jigglypuff still combo into utilt if the opponent SDIs dair properly? Barring a trip of course.

Nah... with proper SDI, d-air won't combo into anything (even Rest) unless they trip. D-air is pretty easy to SDI.

 

[Orion*]

I mean I guess you can count that for against Thio though, I can safely approach and the retreat or just stuff the punish for my Bair.

Bair is not a solid approach in anyway. After you've conditioned your opponent 48329279582 million times, it becomes an AMAZING mixup, the more I use it the more I love it. But it's not a consistent approach against the top tier characters, and it still doesnt have frame advantage despite it being safe.

Jigglypuff is better. Jigglypuff can actually avoid the things sent in her direction, can run away pretty well, has good potential in being unpredictable, and has a generally solid defensive game (as in, being in her shield, for instance).

This

just to throw out another thing to put that guy who said nothing is positive on shield down, arrow loop is positive on shield.

I actually raged

There is also dair to utilt. Slightly delayed dair has more combo potential depending on when we land and when the last hit of dair hit someone.

Most of Jigglypuff's sourspot aerials can lead to an easy fair right afterwards.

Jigglypuff should be grabbing a lot, and should be using all of her aerials, so fair shouldn't be completely stale.

You also have to consider where Jigglypuff will be hitting the opponent. Killing from center stage is difficult but Jiggs has the capability to get hits near the edge/offstage.


Rest is not reliable.
Polt's Jiggs isn't that good, but he does have decent spacing.

This

Link is bad, and I'm starting to think that Samus's projectile game is better, which is saying something, because Samus's projectiles aren't very good.

I wonder if Samus has some potential these days. I've been using her a lot. If the opponent doesn't have an obnoxious approaching game (like Diddy), her options really aren't that bad in general.

Problem is, and I say this not trolling. Samus has options.. but they really don't matter.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Why do I keep seeing "top player DI"?

Sounds stupid as ****, good DI is good DI.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Nah man, top players live longer than regular tournament goers.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Problem is, and I say this not trolling. Samus has options.. but they really don't matter.

They're better than most would assume, though. While a slow fall speed is usually a problem, she has a combination of Down-B, airdodge -> Z-Air, and U-Air or F-Air to land safely often against most characters.

Her dash grab is awesome, and the Charge Shot timing is perfect to punish people who love to spotdodge a dash grab or pretty much anything else.

Z-Air stuffs a lot of aerial approaches and is generally useful for stopping people whenever you want. Bombs, the threat of Z-Air, a dash grab, smart use of missiles, and a running Charge Shot can stop characters who think that they can just run and shield/dodge everything with no problem. It's far from foolproof, but I would say that all of her stuff has its niche.

Nah man, top players live longer than regular tournament goers.

They do, though. It's the rules.

 

[Steam]

I still remember when reflex lived to like 230% against me on delphino. was BS.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nobody can match Mr.Doom's stupid DI though.

 

[Albert.]

Kadaj I disagree. There's a quantitative difference between, say a mid-high level MK like yourself compared to the DI of somebody like m2k.

Like say, they might miss an opportunity to survive (with the assistance of solid DI and momentum cancelling) like they miss 1 out of every 10 situations per game. Ally misses like one per set.

 

[_Kadaj_]

o_0

which is why he dies from 80-90 from Marth's fair at times right?


Troll attempt failed

 

[Gifts]

So when are we banning wolf?

 

[Conviction]

So when are we banning wolf?

After Metaknight

 

[Gifts]

Nawww wolf is more broken than mk will ever be.

 

[DMG]

Shine invincible

aaaaaaaaa

 

[Gifts]

Shine invincible

aaaaaaaaa

Just dont even get me started on how broke this character is.

 

[Jar.]

Let's hear it then Gifts.

 

[Conviction]

The joke he was...nevermind.

 

[Gifts]

Let's hear it then Gifts.

Is this enough?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

My opinion on the tier list. Since it more or less is what my "vote" is.

~

High:

1. Meta Knight
2. Diddy Kong
3. Snake
4. Falco
5. Marth
6. Wario
7. Olimar
8. Pikachu
9. Ice Climbers
10. Lucario
11. Zero Suit Samus
12. Mr. Game and Watch
13. King DeDeDe

Mid:

1. Toon Link (moving to high tier)
2. Wolf
3. Peach
4. Fox
5. Kirby
6. Donkey Kong
7. Sonic
8. R.O.B
9. Pit
10. Ike
11. Luigi
12. Ness
13. Sheik/Zelda
14. Sheik
15. Pokemon Trainer

Low:

1. Yoshi (moving to mid when I get the chance)
2. Lucas
3. Mario
4. Bowser
5. Samus
6. Link
7. Jigglypuff
8. Captain Falcon
9. Zelda
10. Ganondorf

 

[Shaya]

You have a death wish for having Marth at anywhere above 20th around these parts, Red Ryu.

 

[Steam]

why is marth 5th? olimar ICs and Wario should be above him at the very least. Marth doesn't place :I

 

[Shaya]

Because the other characters just aren't GOOD ENOUGH.

 

[archer.]

Marth needs to be put behind Link; they have about the same range, but Link has projectiles.

Marth sucks.