Official BBR Tier List v5

[Life]

Come to think of it, I do remember one time after I first hacked my old Wii that I noticed Sonic's spin sounds sounded different without explanation... but that was ~2010 LOL

 

[Steam]

Come to think of it, I do remember one time after I first hacked my old Wii that I noticed Sonic's spin sounds sounded different without explanation... but that was ~2010 LOL

sooonic boooom

 

[Ishiey]

Not mine, plank all day.

Oh dear. You better be coming to KTAR 6 to back that up

 

[Raziek]

I can't wait for all the rage when Marth moves up to 5th over Wario.

(Totally not confirmed, but probably gonna happen)

Also, people really need to get it into their heads that this isn't "America's Tier List". Marth has excellent results in Europe.

Say what you want about how people weight it, and people weight things differently from person to person, but simply as a result of the composition of the BBR, this is pretty much "Everyone but Japan's tierlist".

Some of us do value Japanese results, but speaking generally, because they we have no JP players in the BBR, it's unlikely to impact much. Not the case in Europe's case, as many Europeans voted and participate.

 

[Jar.]

When IS the next tier list coming out?

 

[_Kain_]

that post makes absolutely no sense. I was just pointing out that it would be stupid to speculate all the "if every X character player played like the best X character player" so what you said makes... 0 sense whatsoever. what did you think I was trying to say? >.>

How does it make no sense? Your trying to say Marth is bad because he only has Mikehaze.

Same could be said of all characters, other than MK each char only has 2-3 real players that shine and make the char look like it's sposed too.

Your logic is bad cause your just trying to apply it to one character when it's like that for most if not all. That's why relying just on results is dumb.

Like I said, bad logic is bad

 

[Spelt]

I, surprisingly, agree with kain.

 

[san.]

Oh dear. You better be coming to KTAR 6 to back that up

Of course, if I go. I'll talk to some people this weekend to see.

About Marth, I had him pretty low, despite his good EU placings.
Wario also does well in Europe and arguably better than Marth in the US.
ICs does well in US and Japan, so does Olimar.
Pika is an enigma for now, since he has such little rep (even though there other were dominant users in the past). There have been other Pikas to place nationally in the past but they're practically retired.

Marth's results don't seem to be that much greater than these other characters. I'd say it's a toss up, to be honest, results wise.

Marth's light weight and overall vulnerability offstage and on the ledge are sucky, to say the least. A lot of his other troubles like blind spots, being outranged, anti-juggling, etc. can be mitigated through skill and spacing. All the characters around Marth have a few key weaknesses here and there. I just happen to think that those weaknesses hurt quite a bit.

 

[Steam]

How does it make no sense? Your trying to say Marth is bad because he only has Mikehaze.

Same could be said of all characters, other than MK each char only has 2-3 real players that shine and make the char look like it's sposed too.

Your logic is bad cause your just trying to apply it to one character when it's like that for most if not all. That's why relying just on results is dumb.

Like I said, bad logic is bad

I'm saying ofc marth would be amazing if they all played like their best player. same could be said for the entire roster.

that's why I brought up Esam, and Trela and whoever the third player was.

I don't get how I was in the slightest way saying marth was bad.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Albert I've seen in like 4-5 different post "Top Player DI" it's a stupid phrase, I didn't care that you were the one I posted after. I'm stating that it's a stupid phrase which it is.

 

[Tagxy]

@Kain Im pretty sure you disagreed with steam, then repeated his point. lol.

@Raziek I doubt that anyone reasonable is upset that the European scene would be considered or that Marth, on his own merits, would deserve 5th on the tier list.

For the record I think Marth is an amazing character, hard to watch Mike and not think so. I personally think he's better than wario myself, but I wont delve into tier list placement atm.

The point Im making is that its one thing to have Europeans results affect their opinions and theory, and another to actually use their results as a reference point. The problem is many advocating for marth havent even attempted to hide their inconsistencies or failures in reason when it comes to using European results.

Reasons why:
1. Those unqualified to compare results attempt to do so regardless

Say what you want about how people weight it, and people weight things differently from person to person, but simply as a result of the composition of the BBR, this is pretty much "Everyone but Japan's tierlist".

The fact that opinions vary so much on something thats meant to be as concrete as results should give you an idea of how bad and innaccurate a tier list would be that attempts to combine such a wide variety of opinions that have no factual basis.

When any person can reference whatever scene they want with dominating "x" character just to prove their point, with little crossover and no experience, we've essentially destroyed the point of using results at all. This is essentially what is happening now from what Ive heard.

Zelda over peach? lets just take a look at japan. Marth over wario? Europes got that covered. Mario over lucario? Ah random scene in Iran got me covered!

Its all equally ridiculousness. However an even bigger issue with this is:


3. European results get special treatment over the rest of the world

Some of us do value Japanese results, but speaking generally, because they we have no JP players in the BBR, it's unlikely to impact much. Not the case in Europe's case, as many Europeans voted and participate.

I understand that Europeans are going to vote based on their own experience and theory, and that can't be helped. However for some reason Europe was deemed as being "superior" by others outside Europe to co-opt their results in arguments. Even with similar crossover experience other scenes don't have the same luxury when trying to strengthen their argument, and Japan which has had even more crossover than Europe certainly hasnt.

But if random BBR marth main can cite Europes results to place marth as 3rd on the tier list, what precisely is to stop someone from referencing Bolivia into their argument to make Marth low tier? Both shouldnt be acceptable. Videos can give you some reference for theory, but as already covered they're trash when it comes to predicting crossover results.

tl;dr, Weighing the importance of one regions results against another with virtually no crossover is impossible, and creates drastically differing and strong opinions that have no basis on anything tangible (an important feature of results). The overall result is poor opinions and judgements are used in creating the tier list.

The idea of accurately comparing results from different regions is an idea that belongs with getting rid of all our nukes or giving healthcare to everyone in Africa. It's a nice thought, but practically impossible.

 

[Browny]

I can't wait for all the rage when Marth moves up to 5th over Wario.

(Totally not confirmed, but probably gonna happen)

Also, people really need to get it into their heads that this isn't "America's Tier List". Marth has excellent results in Europe.

Say what you want about how people weight it, and people weight things differently from person to person, but simply as a result of the composition of the BBR, this is pretty much "Everyone but Japan's tierlist".

Some of us do value Japanese results, but speaking generally, because they we have no JP players in the BBR, it's unlikely to impact much. Not the case in Europe's case, as many Europeans voted and participate.

The only thing larger than the rage that will ensue is the delusions of marth mains.

Pretty sure sonic is garbage tier in Europe and Japan, results and theory wise, but that wont stop him being mid tier in this new list. BBR is bascially "we value and weigh Europes results, but ONLY when they match our opinions. If they dont, Europe is wrong."

Not like anything matters, even if marth is 4th hes still going to be a limited character with a disproportionate amount of skill needed to actually win.

 

[Poltergust]

...Did someone seriously suggest to look up videos of my Jigglypuff?

 

[Tagxy]

Attempting to take results from outside regions in an honest way (or at least between Japan and Europe) would probably place Marth below ICs, Wario, and Olimar.

 

[Spelt]

...Did someone seriously suggest to look up videos of my Jigglypuff?

 

[phi1ny3]

I remember back when Sonic was 5th worst in the game.

those were some of the best days in brawl history.

Down tilt v. Sonic is the worst MU ever

 

[Shaya]

There is only myself, Raziek and Nike that are apart of this tier list project that are Marth mains.

I guess 3 marth mains are ensuring marth's going up this tier list ... >.>
And I haven't even voted.


It was quite painful to read your argument Tagxy.

 

[Spelt]

shaya should vote marth as #1

 

[Shaya]

I would if that one clutch vote would result in marth being above snake or falco or pikachu or something.

 

[Spelt]

Actually, you should vote him into low tier.


Can't think of anything that would be more entertaining than Marth in low tier tournaments.

 

[Shaya]

By virtue of the voting system I'm using for this tier list project, it is actually impossible to vote him below high tier.

 

[Tagxy]

I said advocates. I think I only used mains once in reference to what was posted in this thread.

I also never said there was a consipiracy to keep Marth high, my point which I stated very clearly at the top was the impracticality of trying to combine European and American results. Whats so painful about european results being unable to translate to success in the US or vice versa?

 

[Spelt]

By virtue of the voting system I'm using for this tier list project, it is actually impossible to vote him below high tier.

Should've formed a Marth Deserves To Be Low Tier Cult in the BBR.

I said advocates. I think I only used mains once in reference to what was posted in this thread.

I also never said there was a consipiracy to keep Marth high, only the impracticality of trying to combine European and American results. Whats so painful about european results being unable to translate to success in the US or vice versa?

Probably something to do with the fact that in this thread results are the unequivocal truth until you happen upon any results that fail to support your otherwise unhealthily biased opinions.

 

[Tagxy]

I suppose. I always thought Marth could make a case from a theory perspective, I just feel with this whole [European results + American results - the rest of the world = good character results] thing were being forced to substitute apples for oranges in order to make it work.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Honestly, I could see Marth being 4th these days. Thing is, even if we decided to keep Meta Knight, Diddy, Snake, and Falco at the top 4, I don't really know what characters would be above Marth. As far as I know, Falco hasn't changed at all in the last year, outside of losing rep to Meta Knight; Rock-Paper-Scissors doesn't seem to cut it in this metagame. Wario and Marth are doing about as well as each other, I would say.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Smashboards, where your character doesn't have to win anything to be good unless he's already low tier

 

[OverLade]

Honestly, I could see Marth being 4th these days. Thing is, even if we decided to keep Meta Knight, Diddy, Snake, and Falco at the top 4, I don't really know what characters would be above Marth. As far as I know, Falco hasn't changed at all in the last year, outside of losing rep to Meta Knight; Rock-Paper-Scissors doesn't seem to cut it in this metagame. Wario and Marth are doing about as well as each other, I would say.

I think Marth is better than Wario, just Wario has better players repping him right now. Also I think ICs "could" be higher than both of them, just not enough good players/too many MKs/stagelist.

 

[DMG]

Marth is better than Wario. But Wario does enjoy better CP's and outside of MK (and Sonic at MLG Dallas rofl) he's the most likely candidate to maintain a lead and go for a timeout.

 

[Luigi player]

Marth so good y

 

[Conviction]

Melee of course.

 

[Juushichi]

I think the top six to eight in this game are pretty clear, IMO.

MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Wario, Olimar, Marth and ICies. None of these are in a particular order. Though Pika is extremely close. He kinda might as well be 7 or 8b, if/when ICies get their champion again.

Every former top Solo Climbers main has made a switch or secondaries other characters now right? I don't see that getting better the way the rulesets are going.

As for Marth, he'll just be what he is in Melee again. He's #5 in the game in Melee and the most recent relevant accomplishment of his (outside of m2k's spare usage) was strawhat dahean's 17th at a national iirc.

 

[M@v]

Honestly, I could see Marth being 4th these days. Thing is, even if we decided to keep Meta Knight, Diddy, Snake, and Falco at the top 4, I don't really know what characters would be above Marth. As far as I know, Falco hasn't changed at all in the last year, outside of losing rep to Meta Knight; Rock-Paper-Scissors doesn't seem to cut it in this metagame. Wario and Marth are doing about as well as each other, I would say.

Off topic, but the guy in your avatar is such an *******



...unless he's making you a demon/or whatever its called

 

[<π]

Nah... with proper SDI, d-air won't combo into anything (even Rest) unless they trip. D-air is pretty easy to SDI.

dair dash attack works I believe :D

It may be a frame off... but I can get it pretty consistently just before the percents where dair knocks people up.

 

[Jar.]

I think the top six to eight in this game are pretty clear, IMO.

MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Wario, Olimar, Marth and ICies. None of these are in a particular order. Though Pika is extremely close. He kinda might as well be 7 or 8b, if/when ICies get their champion again.

Every former top Solo Climbers main has made a switch or secondaries other characters now right? I don't see that getting better the way the rulesets are going.

As for Marth, he'll just be what he is in Melee again. He's #5 in the game in Melee and the most recent relevant accomplishment of his (outside of m2k's spare usage) was strawhat dahean's 17th at a national iirc.

There's still Smoom, but he's thinking about not playing anymore also...

 

[OverLade]

Imo going Solo ICs is still perfectly viable, just nobody has the motivation to do it when there are so much less frustrating alternatives. ICs could be 3rd on the tier list (MK, Diddy, ICs) if people like Ally/Atomsk/ESAM went all ICs. It's just not logical to do so. They're a much better CP character since they're almost unbeatable on neutrals in some matchups...

 

[T0MMY]

Jesus christ. t0mmy has beaten me 1 time. ONE TIME. He has not taken a set off of me since that one tournament last year. I don't know where you guys get the idea that he can beat me any time he wants. btw he doesn't play anymore. idk why.

Because our games are usually very close and then you end up doing a clutch triple barrel-spike (three times in a row!) 4tw, lol. Also I beat you in MMs/crews.
But why are you spreading lies that I don't play anymore?
I get so many people confused about this kind of stuff and I don't know why people say things like I moved to Nebraska or quit playing or died or whatever. U mad bro? <= lol, just playing with you...

...But really just because I don't have a carpool to your 12-person Washington events doesn't mean I quit playing. I should have a ride to the July GC, so I'll outplace you there.

See everyone else at Genesis.

 

[_Kadaj_]

How about banning Brinstar and leaving the other current stages available in the Unity Ruleset for about 4-5 months and see where the metagame would expand.

No matter how much anyone denies it, it is a serious crutch for MK to take advantage of and is a big determining factor on a lot of sets involving MK turn out.

This can be even further backed up with MLG's statistics (the match sheets that the ref's used to document how each match played out.)

The fact that the stage forces you to the air with a penalty as big as damaging you if you don't give up positioning is a pretty bad thing, even worse when MK thrives off of opponents losing position and being in the air. Now that coupled with the fact that YOU MUST put yourself in that kind of situation OR choose not to and STILL take damage while then being forced in that position (now with hit stun) is a pretty bad trade off when considering none of the other stages deal with the same kind of situation, on what pretty much falls on two terms. Fall into a situation where being damaged is at about a 85% rating, or be forced into that said situation with about a 5% increase on chances of being hit.

 

[theunabletable]

Marth is better than Wario. But Wario does enjoy better CP's and outside of MK (and Sonic at MLG Dallas rofl)

wait did you really start rolling on the floor laughing while continuing to type? that's amazing

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I do that all the time, it's really easy.

 

[DMG]

wait did you really start rolling on the floor laughing while continuing to type? that's amazing

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