Official BBR Tier List v5

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, Mario has all the tools, but they're all subpar.

Poor Mario. He's hellafun to play as, but he's not going anywhere, and I can even see him dropping on the next list.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Gheb: I'd say it's arguable if Mario goes even with Ike. Each board thinks it's 55-45 in their favor more or less. You can argue Ike has the advantage due to vastly superior, disjointed range, and much greater killing power. Mario on the other hand can argue for the advantage based on lots of low % combos and "not-partcularly-effective-but-still-there" FLUDD gimps. Oddly enough, Mario's cape is next to worthless in this MU. If Ike uses reverse aether to recover and Mario caps us, if gives Ike a recovery boost.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Can't he cape the sword and you don't grab the ledge?

 

[t3h Icy]

In my opinion, Meta-Knight should be ranked #1.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

In my opinion, Meta-Knight should be ranked #1.

Actually he should probably be higher than that.

My prediction for the next tier list:

Ganondorf moves down.

After all, they managed it with this one.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can't he cape the sword and you don't grab the ledge?

Not if we're facing the other way. If we're aethering with our back turned to the stage, and Mario capes aether, Ike rotates so that his sword is now facing the stage, but his back remains in the same place. Thus: you have just increased his recovery range.

 

[phi1ny3]

tbh I think Lucario v. Mario is +1 at the very best for Mario, but that's besides the point.

 

[Browny]

If the point is intelligent discussion and not utterly ridiculous claims about matchups in which the exact opposite has been proven in practice for years on end, id say your quite on the point phil.

you know gheb for someone who obsesses over other countries' metagames and say the EU/JP game should affect the NORTH AMERICAN tier list you repeatedly turn a blind eye to Lucarios significant level of tournament results. Just because you dont see EU lucarios taking names doesnt mean if most definitely occurs in the country which this list is based on.

Mario having the adv on luc is as absurd as claims about marios bair having more disjoint than lucarios fair and im sure people here know how that ended up.

I hope you are able to understand the blatantly obvious difference between character main bias, and speaking out against completely unjustified theorycraft.

 

[Judo777]

If the point is intelligent discussion and not utterly ridiculous claims about matchups in which the exact opposite has been proven in practice for years on end, id say your quite on the point phil.

you know gheb for someone who obsesses over other countries' metagames and say the EU/JP game should affect the NORTH AMERICAN tier list you repeatedly turn a blind eye to Lucarios significant level of tournament results. Just because you dont see EU lucarios taking names doesnt mean if most definitely occurs in the country which this list is based on.

Mario having the adv on luc is as absurd as claims about marios bair having more disjoint than lucarios fair and im sure people here know how that ended up.

I hope you are able to understand the blatantly obvious difference between character main bias, and speaking out against completely unjustified theorycraft.

I could be wrong but i thought about pointing it out earlier but I think phil just worded his post funny. I think he meant to say Lucario v Mario is +1 *Lucarios advantage* at best for Mario, implying Mario might lose worse.

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yeah, that. Mario's relative lack of getting in is still worse than lucario's somewhat meh CQC responses, and Mario's relatively inability to kill outside of a hard gimp is not his cup of tea for winning against a character like Lucario, although it helps that Lucario has a bad recovery God-forbid he has to recover lower from like bad DI.

 

[Browny]

I know phil meant that, no lucario main who plays the game would ever come to a conclusion of a mario advantage.

Just a post about ghebs statement which is undoubtedly a result of his massive bias against Lucario as displayed throughout this thread forever on account of there being no dominant tournament playing Lucario's in EU or JP, although 9B might fix that.

 

[Shaya]

I know phil meant that, no lucario main who plays the game would ever come to a conclusion of a mario advantage.

Just a post about ghebs statement which is undoubtedly a result of his massive bias against Lucario as displayed throughout this thread forever on account of there being no dominant tournament playing Lucario's in EU or JP, although 9B might fix that.

Pot

Kettle

Black.

 

[Browny]

Heres me coming out and making sweeping statements that go completely against the NORTH AMERICAN metagame in a thread about the NORTH AMERICAN tier list.

Oh wait...

 

[Steam]

Lucario is a mediocre character at worst.

and he beats Mario +1... can't see it being any other way tbh.

 

[Orion*]

9B plays lucario now I think

lol he's a fool then...

I played mk against him and all I did was PS > ftilt and he literally couldn't do anything to it

That's all the mu is xD

Yeah, I hate when people use that logic. Mario is just really, really bad all in all and he only beats/goes even bad characters like Lucario, Ike, ROB, Sonic or Yoshi [Olimar is the only anomaly here because he's actually good].

How does... Mario beat rob? >_>
Did I miss something??

I don't really agree with Lucario either, but maybe like if Mario perfected the gimp it could be even or something... Idk Lucario is kinda balls but not That bad, he just would get gimmicked if he doesn't know the MU probably.

 

[Ingoro]

I've been wondering about this for a while, is it likely to assume that pokemon trainer is going to drop assuming Reflex ( the only pt with good results ) doesn't main him anymore and skipped to main Wario again?

 

[phi1ny3]

Not to mention that there's been a lot of playing in that MU w/ Junebug and Boss back when he used to use Mario more, as well as a couple of other decent Marios from EC, and conversely Vato's played a lot of WC Lucarios (both aren't as strong of an example, but that's besides the point). They usually agree Lucario has the edge in the MU.

I've been wondering about this for a while, is it likely to assume that pokemon trainer is going to drop assuming Reflex ( the only pt with good results ) doesn't main him anymore and skipped to main Wario again?

I'm not sure, but I think lots agree that PT has too much to ever drop back to LT, although this whole "camp squirtle until he fatigues" sounds like it's getting pretty nasty for one of PT's largest strengths.

 

[Steam]

ITT: Europeans think lucario is garbage

 

[Spelt]

ITT: Europeans are correct

Spoiler

unusually

 

[Zigsta]

PT will never be LT. Squirtle and Charizard aren't LT.

 

[Spelt]

charizard is lt, ivysaur isn't.

 

[Shaya]

I think PT should never fall back into LT, they're (imo) a proven noticeably cut above such characters. They should always drift around the absolute bottom of middle.

 

[Spelt]

Except now that reflex plays wario, he will eventually.

results within the last 3 weeks are all that matter in this thread.

 

[Shaya]

Don't worry, Marth mains run the brawl back room, and as long as that is true, all PT haters will be smitten.

 

[Ingoro]

The representation of PT is sad, we've got nobody like reflex who keeps us in mid tier. You can count all the Pokemon Trainer mains on one hand.

 

[Browny]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12750075&postcount=21

I don't even need to explain why I found this relevant to this thread, on account of the fact its me who is posting this.

 

[Shaya]

Mario mains outplaced the sonic mains?

Damn son, sonic back to low tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I say PT should be king of low tier. >_> Yoshi is clearly moving up out of low tier, and I don't believe that PT is better than Ness. Thus, PT drops down to low tier. He simply doesn't have the rep to stay in mid tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12750075&postcount=21

I don't even need to explain why I found this relevant to this thread, on account of the fact its me who is posting this.

Hey Browny, did you know Marth COULD BE NUMBER 2 IN THE GAME? I know, because I'm so awesome.

 

[Shaya]

I say PT should be king of low tier. >_> Yoshi is clearly moving up out of low tier, and I don't believe that PT is better than Ness. Thus, PT drops down to low tier. He simply doesn't have the rep to stay in mid tier.

The question begs, does a lack of representation mean a character is weaker than before?

Remember, Reflex's results made PT look "better" than most mid tiers. You know, there was like a time when PT had better results than Sonic n shiz. And like Zero Suit Samus. And maybe in one secluded month or two, Lucario also. Reflex wasn't the only PT that existed, but he made that extremely strong and noticeable mark. PT was also bonkers in low tier tournaments, and that totally decides tier placements.

One could argue that the decline in representation means that they are weaker comparatively to before.
Maybe. And that could be argued, and that could very well be a reason for PT to drop to low tier.

 

[Tagxy]

Pokemon Trainer can guard the bottom of mid-tier, its not like it stops characters below him from moving up if they show to be better. All it would take is another dedicated PT user to cause a ton of damage in low tier tournaments. Another option would be to have a more inclusive low tier (i.e. part or all of D tier), but thats only if people are worried about low tier becoming too small.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The question begs, does a lack of representation mean a character is weaker than before?

Remember, Reflex's results made PT look "better" than most mid tiers. You know, there was like a time when PT had better results than Sonic n shiz. And like Zero Suit Samus. And maybe in one secluded month or two, Lucario also. Reflex wasn't the only PT that existed, but he made that extremely strong and noticeable mark. PT was also bonkers in low tier tournaments, and that totally decides tier placements.

One could argue that the decline in representation means that they are weaker comparatively to before.
Maybe. And that could be argued, and that could very well be a reason for PT to drop to low tier.

Reflex was like what, 75% of PT's results? The whole reason he moved down this tier list because it was Reflex being amazing, not PT. And now other characters are constantly doing better than him, or at least have multiple mains showing up every now and then. I don't see a reason to really keep him in mid tier.

This may be painfully out of date, but I think it proves that the only other PT user who really shows up as a threat basically ever is Steeler. When was the last time Steeler placed top 8 in a tournament?

PT is more or less acting like a low tier character atm. That's where he should be.

 

[Steam]

Don't worry, Marth mains run the brawl back room

thaaaaat explaaaaaaaaaains everything

also lol@ marth in 65th place

 

[Life]

Mario mains outplaced the sonic mains?

Damn son, sonic back to low tier.

That's generally what happens to characters when their best handful of players don't show up (other than the upper-tiers that have a lot of reps in the first place).

 

[Kinzer]

That's generally what happens to characters when their best handful of players don't show up (other than the upper-tiers that have a lot of reps in the first place).

You sir, have been trolled.

Though yeah, it freaking sucks. Everybody's been leavin'. ;_; I can't fill that gap on my own, no matter how hard I try.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i saw a pit player (apparently one of the better ones) pulled 33rd place at a hundred person tourney.

i think the pit mains would see this as an accomplishment.

I see this as a detriment to their cause.

I think this is the disconnect between the pit mains that think pit is great, and the rest of us that think he is booty.

 

[Ingoro]

Steeler was on hiatas after he placed decent at MLG last year, but recently he has said that he's getting back to it again. Apart from that, I'm pretty the only european Pokemon Trainer, I'm still pretty "fresh" to the competitve scene, but I managed to place 17th at the last national ( roughly 60 people). I know it's not great, but it's a start. I will be attending a international next weekend, we'll see how that goes.

 

[Shaya]

Reflex was like what, 75% of PT's results? The whole reason he moved down this tier list because it was Reflex being amazing, not PT. And now other characters are constantly doing better than him, or at least have multiple mains showing up every now and then. I don't see a reason to really keep him in mid tier.

There were several PT mains active during that high day.
If we were to take Reflex playing PT as what PT's tier placement would have been, he would have been around where Pit/Rob/Fox are now.

You know, I studied dem PTs for over 9000 hours and was arguably the most informed non-PT main on PT (like no one ever was/is). While I played a character who absolutely brutalised all 3 characters to hard counter levels and would always state that Reflex's victories stemmed strongly from lack of match up knowledge. However, PT as a whole destroys most of the low tiers and is around the even to slight disadvantage, TO EVEN HAVING arguably advantages to around the mid tier area. These match ups have not changed.

The game hasn't changed much. Placements may alter a bit, but for the most part, characters will be staying in similar tier placements for likely the rest of Brawl's history.

Why do I feel like all the regulars in the tier list topic are embittered to acting like statistics which are OLD are still not valid unless proven otherwise. Reflex was an OUTLIER for PT, yet the results of PT excluding him at his high day were still superior to other low tiers.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There were several PT mains active during that high day.
If we were to take Reflex playing PT as what PT's tier placement would have been, he would have been around where Pit/Rob/Fox are now.

You know, I studied dem PTs for over 9000 hours and was arguably the most informed non-PT main on PT (like no one ever was/is). While I played a character who absolutely brutalised all 3 characters to hard counter levels and would always state that Reflex's victories stemmed strongly from lack of match up knowledge. However, PT as a whole destroys most of the low tiers and is around the even to slight disadvantage, TO EVEN HAVING arguably advantages to around the mid tier area. These match ups have not changed.

The game hasn't changed much. Placements may alter a bit, but for the most part, characters will be staying in similar tier placements for likely the rest of Brawl's history.

I don't think characters will stay in similar tier placements. Not with the constant overhyping of at least one character every tier list, followed by everyone realizing their mistake the next tier list. Not with a new attempt at trying to standardize the stage list for every major tournament, and how that can effect match ups, and thus results.

Match ups can in fact change, and not just due to CPs available. People think of new ways to go about match ups all of the time. One very obvious example for me is the Ike vs Falco. For the longest time, we thought it was a 3-7 D. Now we think of it as a 4-6 D. Why? Because somebody thought "Hey, you know we could just take the laser damage to 30%, and then shield the rest ya know. After that, just let our superior up close game take over." Add in the Bthrow -> Dash Attack combo, and suddenly what used to be thought of as Ike's third hardest MU is no longer that hard.

Ike vs Olimar was even more just based on a different way of thinking. I've seen Olimar players (rarely) suggest that Olimar's advantage could be as low as 55-45 instead of 7-3. What happened? Nothing really, except that for no apparently reason Ikes were winning the MU. For no real reason, the MU is now 6-4 Olimar's favor. I doubt us figuring out that Nair is safe against Olimar's PS if we buffer our spotdodge perfectly is enough to change that MU that much on it's own. And then again, later on after that realization we found out about our Bthrow -> Dash Attack combo.

Both of these earlier MU ratios were due to a lack of MU knowledge. I would also argue that if Reflex got a very large part of his wins from a lack of match up knowledge, how do we know that those MUs are actually that close? Particularly with not many people playing as PT. Obviously, we can't go "Well, nobody plays PT so these MUs are probably wrong", but it makes it very hard to be positive that they won't change in the future, either for better or for worse.

....Aaaaand I forgot the point I was going to make for this part of my post part way through. Dang it. Something about "If PT really has MUs on the same level as a mid tier character, why isn't he really getting the same level of results unless Reflex is playing as PT?" Pretend there is a good connection between what I just said, and that question in quotations. >_<

Why do I feel like all the regulars in the tier list topic are embittered to acting like statistics which are OLD are still not valid unless proven otherwise. Reflex was an OUTLIER for PT, yet the results of PT excluding him at his high day were still superior to other low tiers.

Considering Ike was low tier at the same time, I doubt that last bit is correct. Unless you mean only the current low tiers results back then, in which case you're probably correct.

And we tend to ignore old statistics because frankly, they are out of date. Old statistics had D3 doing better than he is now, Diddy not doing as well as he is now, ect. They also include stages that are no longer used. The tier list is a reflection of the current metagame. Not the old one, not the future one. While the current metagame is built on top of the old one, we're also past that level.

 

[san.]

I believe Yoshis started to improve due to the flow of knowledge between their best players having a net positive effect. Yoshi's innate qualities handle the rest. For under-represented characters, sharing knowledge is quintessential to keeping the character alive.