Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

[ADHD]

I fail to see how rob can plank.

Swordgard meet chibo.

Chibo beat LAIN!!! 8===D~~ O':

 

[Vex Kasrani]

ROB can plank IC's, but ROB's planking really isn't that powerful, just annoying.

 

[BBQTV]

we should ban rob, he can plank!

 

[Vex Kasrani]

IC's **** ROB on Summit, improved traction for IC's and no ledges!

 

[BBQTV]

we need summit or else we have to ban rob! oh and we need to make a rule were you cant ban summit too!

 

[Mic_128]

Another thing I'd like to comment on would be the two stage “Counter/Ban” section of the rules. For the sake of simplicity and organization, I feel it would be best for those two stages, Pirate Ship and Yoshi's Island: Melee, to be either counterpick or banned, not both.

Reason being, as I said before, this is about options, but options have to be clear. Counter/Ban, to me, seems like everyone is on the fence about them, so let's just put them out there and whatever happens, happens. I'm glad most of the new stages made legal were put directly into CP instead of C/B so more confusion and chaos did not ensue, but this kind of thing seems somewhat lazy or just unneeded.

If anything, I'd like to know why Pirate Ship and Yoshi's Island: Melee are not either just CP or just banned. What was the reasoning for making them Counter/Ban? What could be done to remedy this?

Simply put, the votes for this were very even, and with Pirate ship we ended up starting discussions on what constitutes stalling, what definetion we should use ect, which the entire voting for pirate ship was affected by. Some voted thinking it should be banned because of Rudder camping, others voted it should be fine because rudder camping counts as stalling, others voted it's fine with rudder camping, others voted banned even without rudder camping. Whatever was decided about stalling would affect the vote and basically decide what it would be, and rather than delay the rule list for a few more weeks, the list was released while debate continues.

 

[Veggi]

MK can't plank on The Summit and he can't scrooge on the Summit either. What makes it even better is if he tries to do either of those things he will die. When the gravity is changed, MK has no move to go downwards when he wants, plus all of his specials are extremely unsafe. In the water he has no meteor smash. It's just horrible, plus when he tries to turn around he slides and it takes him forever to recover from his slide animation. It's just horrible.

 

[Flayl]

Since you can only circle camp Summit for short periods at a time, I'm all for including it in the new ruleset, there is no other reason why it should be banned.

 

[CR4SH]

I heard about port town and I was all ready to storm in here, up in arms. But looking at ALL the bull**** that's on. Maybe it'll balance out. It'll be fun, thats for sure.

Good luck. This list is bonkers.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Simply put, the votes for this were very even, and with Pirate ship we ended up starting discussions on what constitutes stalling, what definetion we should use ect, which the entire voting for pirate ship was affected by. Some voted thinking it should be banned because of Rudder camping, others voted it should be fine because rudder camping counts as stalling, others voted it's fine with rudder camping, others voted banned even without rudder camping. Whatever was decided about stalling would affect the vote and basically decide what it would be, and rather than delay the rule list for a few more weeks, the list was released while debate continues.

Fair enough, though I'm sure voting would have been different, or potentially different, if everyone in the BBR voted, but that's another case entirely.

So, it seems like the active BBR could not come to a concrete conclusion on the Pirate Ship stage, so they put it in a category in which the stage could be left up to TOs to decide on while more discussion ensues in the BBR. I also assume that this is the same case with Yoshi's Island: Melee, considering you didn't explain the reasoning behind that, but it is in the same category as Pirate Ship.

Do you think that delaying the rule list for a few more weeks to allow for more discussion on these stages would have been more beneficial than leaving them up in the air?

 

[Black Mantis]

You really have to question the effectiveness of a group that is supposed to be the best and brightest at the game, has over 100 members, but only has 20 of them vote and pick horrible stages that favor the most broken character in the game that still hasn't been banned yet.

 

[solecalibur]

Im more suprized it isnt required as a BBR member , I guess I overreacted with some of these stages being still RECOMMENDED but they still should be considered a little harder then there reasoning now

 

[Cloudfox]

These things were probably all answered long time ago, and are like 10 pages back or more, but whatever.

This is incredibly backwards and thoughtless. Please think about just how little sense that really makes.

You don't prove something ISN'T broken to legalize it when it's already a part of the game. That is backwards. You leave it, as it is a part of the game, and then if it is proven broken, it can be removed.

How can you go to a tournament and prove something ISN'T broken if it isn't legal?

Exactly. This game came out a mere 3 months ago, we haven't had time to experiment and see if people playing for money and fame are willing to exploit stage-intrinsic tactics in order to win. ...oh wait.

There is no proof in that thread. Only theory without application. It's technically possible to do many things based solely on frame data, that doesn't mean it is actually possible, though. This is true in pretty much every game, including Brawl.

You can't say that something will happen or is realistically possible just because it is "technically possible".



With what I'm saying above, I'm not saying that it is my personal stance of whether I think it is or isn't an issue. Merely that the above approach is the only viable one for determining if there is an issue to begin with.

It's only "technically possible" that Dedede can sit there and camp your *** 'til you approach him and get CG'd off the stage, then repeat for the next two stocks. It's entirely reasonable to assume that with enough practice, a very good player can approach him and not get grabbed one single time for the entirety of the match, and I demand that we legalize Mario Kart, Bridge of Eldin, Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone, and bring YI:M into the Starter list.

Think of it this way. MK is plankin the ledge. A pellet appears and you grab it.

You z drop it onto the slant(It will slowly fall down to the ledge being a hitbox the whole time and I'm pretty sure it's transcended priority) and then punish MK's reaction.

Plus the ledge grab rule will most likely be in effect so he can' camp that ledge for too long.



The main problem I have is everyone is theorycrafting why MK is broken on this stage and they haven't event tested the stage mechanics out to see if what they're saying is true.

Just what reaction would you be punishing...? The whole problem with MK's planking (not to mention him as a character) is his BS attack speed + range. Making him move from the ledge momentarily doesn't exactly give you a free edgehog or anything.


Lastly, I'd like to apologize for dignifying this ruleset with a response. My momma raised me better.

 

[lordhelmet]

Click the blue thing

Best post I have seen in this thread yet, Cloud for BBR (no sarcasm)

 

[Browny]

^^ I support this motion

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I haven't caught up with this thread since last night, but here's gameplay on Luigi's if anyone's interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvwaqaBOyZY

Nice comeback! Congratulations on being the only person in this thread to post videos of play on these stages other than the videos from MMM.

I'm still waiting on any evidence at all the people complaining here have even played on these stages. I'm going to guess I'm never going to get it and that people are complaining about stages they have no experience on. Please, prove me wrong.

I also am going to call some of you guys out on being a very vocal minority. Just look at what some of you are doing. I'm seeing tons of personal attacks, arguments from credibility, blatant grandstanding, and what I think we could best call "arguing against the weakest". I'm sure this brand of nonsense has some more formal name, but I notice a lot of you, when deciding which posts to respond to, pick the posts that are most poorly constructed or easiest to argue against, and slam them hard while simply ignoring posts that would be more difficult to reply to. I notice that the only people who responded to my previous posts were people agreeing with me, but there was no shortage of response to BPC's posts when he was in this topic. I'm sure some weaker minded people find this overall nonsense convincing and are seeing a community mandate that these rules are terrible and that the BBR is bad, but you aren't fooling many people here. The more clever people understand exactly what is going on, see the weakness of the non-arguments being presented, and simply are electing not to participate in this topic. I'm not going to name names, but you guys know who you are. You should be ashamed, and I hope no one confuses any of this for a community mandate against these quality rules. Feel free to change your ways and start posting better, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[.AC.]

why is summit banned?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I also am going to call some of you guys out on being a very vocal minority.

Just for the record, here.

Are you saying the majority of the community is in favor of this stage list?

 

[Chuee]

why is summit banned?

The fish tail KO's at .5%

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I would like someone to give me some type of reasoning as to why Port Town Aero Dive is allowed but

Spear Pillar
Summit
Corneria
and Hanenbow

are not allowed.

1. Circle Camping
2. Circle Camping
3. Fin Camping
4. Circle Camping

All of which have been proven broken without a doubt.

why is summit banned?

Circle Camping. This list has no stage with a truly degenerate tactic in counterpick. At least not a provenly degenerate one. PTAD is actually a really fair stage, and way better than Green Greens, Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, or Brinstar (then again, so are YI(M) and Onett).

 

[lordhelmet]

I'm actually working on a video

I try not to argue in here because I've found that people's logic have become severely fractured, and constant facepalming is probably not good for my forehead let alone my palms.

 

[mikeHAZE]

1. Circle Camping
2. Circle Camping
3. Fin Camping
4. Circle Camping

All of which have been proven broken without a doubt.



Circle Camping. This list has no stage with a truly degenerate tactic in counterpick. At least not a provenly degenerate one. PTAD is actually a really fair stage, and way better than Green Greens, Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, or Brinstar (then again, so are YI(M) and Onett).

Any stage can promote camping with this logic. i can argue luigi's, japes, distant planet, halberd, delfino.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You could. Are the tactics overcentralizing/banworthy? If they are, I'd like to hear why.

 

[lordhelmet]

LMFAO!!!

"PTAD is actually a really fair stage"

So it's fair that tether characters have to bounce on a track and take at least 15% to recover? That is, assuming the track is there.

I gotta get out of here before I kill myself

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

LMFAO!!!

"PTAD is actually a really fair stage"

So it's fair that tether characters have to bounce on a track and take at least 15% to recover? That is, assuming the track is there.

You mean Olimar (Ivysaur is garbage, ZSS has decent options on the stage beyond her tether)? Olimar usually dies offstage. This is at most a slight loss for him. Nothing more. Even then, it's one character for whom the stage sucks who actually matters. It's like banning YI(M) because DDD can CG 4 chars that don't matter, one that should never get grabbed, and lucario. It's bad for tethers, but it's no worse than RC or the like.

 

[deepseadiva]

Luigi's Mansion and Distant Planet have light circle camping.

Green Greens has close-to-permanent (they quickly regenerate) walls.

Port Town... is surprisingly better sounding. A harder-hitting Halberd.

 

[Chuee]

LMFAO!!!

"PTAD is actually a really fair stage"

So it's fair that tether characters have to bounce on a track and take at least 15% to recover? That is, assuming the track is there.

I gotta get out of here before I kill myself

Actually, more than just tether characters have problems recovering on this stage. Tether characters just happen to have a very slim chance.

 

[mikeHAZE]

You could. Are the tactics overcentralizing/banworthy? If they are, I'd like to hear why.

i guess the best way to prove this would be with factual (video) evidence, so i'm going to do some research and wait for an epic post.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Can we all just not use this?

Also hi Mike!

 

[lordhelmet]

You mean Olimar (Ivysaur is garbage, ZSS has decent options on the stage beyond her tether)? Olimar usually dies offstage. This is at most a slight loss for him. Nothing more. Even then, it's one character for whom the stage sucks who actually matters. It's like banning YI(M) because DDD can CG 4 chars that don't matter, one that should never get grabbed, and lucario. It's bad for tethers, but it's no worse than RC or the like.

Translation:

**** low tier characters, they are trash and people that play them should not be allowed to have fun when playing Super Smash Bros. Brawl for the Nintendo Wii.

 

[.AC.]

The fish tail KO's at .5%

many things in the stages that are allowed do similar things, beside you can avoid the fish by playing smart (which is also an argument used in favor of some stages).

 

[Chuee]

The fish tails hitbox covers the entire stage and it outlasts all airdodges.

 

[Browny]

these quality rules.

I highlight the weakest part of your post, the rest is invalid.

 

[AvaricePanda]

onett, better than brinstar? what?

Also on PTAD, realistically you should be taking way more than 15% from recovering. If your name isn't a character with multiple jumps or Wario and you get hit by the track, have fun recovering, because your opponent will have such an easy time edgegaurding you because there's no ledge to go to for safety.

It's not just tether characters that will have trouble recovering. Snake, Falco, Marth, and Lucario, to name a few good characters, should be taking loads of percent against a competent player when they're trying to recover or got hit by the track on this stage.

PTAD amplifies how powerful the edgeguarding position is by a lot. The track bounces you back up for % and to get hit again, and the lack of a ledge makes the guessing game of edgeguarding tons easier vs. many characters.

 

[WindMajor]

Doesn't PTAD actually help tethers in a way? The difference between PTAD and other stages like FD for example would be that some tetherers are completely screwed if they get ledgehogged, and just take -1 stock, but in PTAD, even though the enemy doesn't HAVE to ledgehog you, you can still recover, at the expense of more %.

 

[Flayl]

Budget Player Cadet_: Have you actually tried circle camping on Summit? Be honest.

Really, play a few games on the stage.

 

[DusK-The-Stray]

Before anyone gets on my ***, I have actually taken the time to read the whole darn thread.

The few things I am really gathering here is:

1) That we should test things for you guys in a tournament setting, in which we can possibly lose a lot of money for incredibly stupid things.

2) If we don't like the stages and don't use them, we are apparently scrubs (said at most of the earlier pages but is sometimes still mentioned.).

3) Some of the things said make it out to seem we're thought of as guinea pigs instead of players.

When you get answers like these, no matter if you support or are against the ruleset, this is how the community is being treated and, to me, it just doesn't feel right.

Basically, we're either getting called lab rats/guinea pigs or scrubs.

I do agree proof should be provided before crying "BAN!", but I also agree it should work both ways.

I'm not saying I'm for or against this ruleset, in fact, I haven't mentioned my opinion about this ruleset at all.

Spoiler

Waits for the inevitable getting washed away by the rest of the posts.

 

[Black Mantis]

Since nobody took my previous post and tried to deconstruct it in order to make themselves feel good or suck up to the BBR, I call that a win.

But seriously Luigi's Mansion was acceptable in the past and was removed for basically being a stage that heavily benefited MK and smaller version of Hyrule. To the 20 people who voted (out of a 100 member group which is quite sad), why was this stage brought back?

 

[Nosboss]

A lot of people seem to be worried that Meta Knight is too good on all/most of these stages. Let me point something out.

Let's say a tournament is run using all the CP and CP/Banned stages as legal CPs. Let's say MK really is as good as some of you make him out to be on these stages.

Would Meta Knight like to counterpick Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon Stadium 2, Distant Planet, or Green Greens against, let's say, Falco more than he'd like to choose Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise?

Probably not.

In this situation, is LM/PS2/DP/GG a viable option? Yes it is. But wouldn't a player looking to maximize his chances of winning choose the stage that gives him the best chance of winning? Probably. You only get one stage to ban. If Falco bans Brinstar, aren't you almost always going to CP to Rainbow Cruise and if he bans Rainbow Cruise, aren't you almost always going to CP to Brinstar?

This holds true if you replace Falco with any other character...for the most part.

As such, MK doesn't really care that LM or DP or GG is legal, because he doesn't need them; he's already got his best stages in Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. Even if Meta Knight chooses to ignore both of these options and he goes for one of the previously mentioned stages, are you really going to complain he chose a stage where he can gay you less than if he had chosen Brinstar/RC? Of course, this doesn't quite hold up as well if MK is CPing a character that doesn't mind going to one of these stages, but for the sake of this situation, let's ignore this tidbit.

On the flipside, Falco's counterpicking against Meta Knight. Using, let's say, the EC's usual stage list, Falco's going to get FD banned. So where does he go? Smashville probably. PS1? Battlefield? Not horrible stages for Falco, but these stages don't give Falco a nice boost to his game like FD does for him or MK on RC/Brinstar; it's more on the lines of "which stage does MK not gay me as much". In this hypothetical tournament however, Falco has access to Jungle Japes. So now Falco can actually go to a CP stage against MK; if he bans JJ, off to FD, if he bans FD, off to JJ.

As with the previous example, you can replace MK's name with any other character and this holds true...again, for the most part.

Now, I'm not asking the people saying MK or character x is broken on stage y to stop or that you're wrong; the stage may indeed be really bad (I'd personally reserve such judgments until some iffy things become clear) and broken. Nor am I saying I like this list and think it's good (I have problems with a number of things). However, saying this only helps Meta Knight's game is pretty folly since when you actually take a look, the stage buffs he got are practically meaningless when Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise still exist.

On the other hand, most of the other characters should enjoy this list, since it gives some characters CP stages almost as gay as MK on his CP stages.

The only legitimate concern that has been stated is whether some of these CP stages are broken enough to go back to being banned.

On that note, the people in favor of these CP stages have given their side of the argument and provided their reasoning and data to support them. Some of you argue the data is false/inaccurate/not legit, but that's not how it works; the burden of proof is on the side against these stages. You have to prove said data is false/inaccurate/not legit with yours. Why? Because that's the philosophy our country runs by. "Innocent until proven guilty". (Note: I am aware many countries follow the opposite "Guilty until proven innocent". As the majority of members here are from the U.S., it's only natural this is the philosophy used.)

I saw a post earlier that tried to refute the claims that only 6 characters are gayed by D3 on Pipes. Kudos, but two problems; the evidence is shown in the same way as the opposing side's a.k.a. in text. This is a problem because your side is calling just the textual evidence illegitimate. As such, you would in essence be saying your own evidence is illegitimate, lest you run into a double standard. If you retract this accusation, then we have two conflicting pieces of information, and it's your job to prove your evidence is more valid. Which essentially translates to video evidence and/or frame data (the more, the better!). This also means your conjectures on how a stage can potentially be broken is likewise useless.

As for the argument that top players should be the ones with the most influence on this list or they would do a better job or any statement along those lines, consider this: in every professional sport, coaches who were former players were almost never top players. In fact, they were usually role players, because the role players had to make up for their inferior talent by learning the aspects of the game.

I don't really care too much which side ends up "winning" (seeing as everything is just a ****ing recommendation anyways and not the Ten Commandments of Brawl), but if you guys really do care about this at all, then show it. I question both side's level of maturity since everything is either trolling or u mad. I get it. Some of you really hate this list and others just have to defend every single point of their immaculate ruleset. I got it about 100 pages ago. So ****ing stop it.

 

[Orion*]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

eat a **** LOL you got me

That phrase is probably one of my least favorite ever. It may not be BROKEN, but if there is room for improvements, there is no reason not to do so.

what are you improving. you are vastly unbalancing an unbalanced game LOL

Just for the record, here.

Are you saying the majority of the community is in favor of this stage list?

i hope not

1. Circle Camping
2. Circle Camping
3. Fin Camping
4. Circle Camping

All of which have been proven broken without a doubt.



Circle Camping. This list has no stage with a truly degenerate tactic in counterpick. At least not a provenly degenerate one. PTAD is actually a really fair stage, and way better than Green Greens, Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, or Brinstar (then again, so are YI(M) and Onett).

planking is proven unbeatable yet you still allow no ledge limit. we havent fully tested if you can stop circle camping either, "it was never given a fair chance"

allow stages like hanenbow and summit. there is literally no argument you could make that doesnt contradict your cuurrent bull****