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Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

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StarLight

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It's been stated many times now that they did test stuff on these stages before the ruleset was released.
Minimal testing, which is the reason many of the bbr are actively encouraging other TOs to use the ruleset to prove the bbr wrong. The community should not be used as a labrat for a group that is supposed to be little more than a think-tank in the first place.

Edit: About the only competitive testing they did was MMM's mini-tourney, with players that were still new to the stages(with the exception of FAE, who wrecked everyone else). One tournament is not decisive testing and does not provide conclusive information. As a matter of fact, MMM has stated this multiple times throughout this thread.
 

Crow!

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ADHD left the BR of his own accord.
To be more specific, he ragequit as soon as he realized he wasn't going to be able to singlehandedly turn the stage list into a Diddy Kong heaven. He was not as good at hiding his agenda as M2K usually is, either.
 

John12346

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But honestly, if you aren't going to have a LGL on MK, you basically need a stage list that is at least a bit odd to make sure you have at least a chance to disrupt MK's perfect planking with the stage itself. Granted, you also need to actually win one of the games in the first place to even get your CP choice...
Just for the record, and this is pretty obvious, but if a stage list has to be BASED AROUND MK, his superior moveset, and his perfect planking, that'd be grounds for removal right there.
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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About the items...I don't support items (probably because i've been accustomed to not using them, yet I don't see what's the mater with calling someone a ****** just because they think items should be legal.
 

John12346

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Oh, and one more thing. Match 1 starts on a starter stage, and MK can very easily pick ANOTHER starter stage(or Brinstar) as his CP if he somehow manages to lose Match 2. AT LEAST two stages with permanent ledges(or one stage with ledges and RC) right there.

Edit: Items would very likely balance the game, but the results would become significantly less consistent than what we have now. Like, standard deviation, ya'digg?
 

lordhelmet

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*brb jumping on the MK bandwagon*

If MK gets banned, this'll likely happen:
- Everyone jumps Marth
- Some people jump Dedede cuz he counters Marth; Falco for even MUs
- People decide to use ICs, Olimar, and Falco to combat Dedede
- Others pick up Snake and Diddy to beat ICs, Peach and Luigi to beat Olimar, and Pikachu plus some more Marth to beat Falco
- Influxes of Snake, Diddy, Marth, Peach, Luigi, Marth, and Pikachu's counters are suddenly used
- Influxes of said counter's counters are used to combat the aforementioned counters

HOLY **** LOOK AT THAT METAGAME

With MK not banned, this happens:
- Player 1 mains a bunch of high tier characters
- Player 2 uses MK
- Player 1 uses MK too

With MK out of the picture, I think Marth's gonna take that number 1 spot, but we WILL very likely see a very healthy, diverse metagame.
^ That
 

Chuee

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To be more specific, he ragequit as soon as he realized he wasn't going to be able to singlehandedly turn the stage list into a Diddy Kong heaven. He was not as good at hiding his agenda as M2K usually is, either.
Yeah, because ADHD only cares about winning.
 

Crow!

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SBR should release their testing results.
It's hard to "release" the concept of "BBR members A, B, C, ... have played on stages X, Y, Z, ... N many times with players D, E, F ... using a level of competitiveness T."

Suffice it to say that we would have players say "remove my vote, I don't actually know this stage well enough." Some of which would later return and say "after further testing, I now feel confident in voting [either Counterpick or Banned, depending on the case]."
 

Nidtendofreak

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Just for the record, and this is pretty obvious, but if a stage list has to be BASED AROUND MK, his superior moveset, and his perfect planking, that'd be grounds for removal right there.
Oh, I know, and I want him gone. But if for some reason a conservative area doesn't want a LGL targeting MK, and yet wants to deal with his perfect planking without banning him...they might wanna consider throwing PTAD onto their CP list just so MK can't make it impossible for any character to CP against their perfect planking. It is just one more stage, rather different from what they are used to, but as long as they would be using to use it against a perfect planking MK if he didn't ban it, it would help to solve that one problem.
 

Player-3

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this stagelist is ********.

BRINSTAR
should be
BANNED

it should have NEVER been legal, it's only legal because "oh it was legal in melee so we can use it!"

this is a DIFFERENT GAME
 

Flayl

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this stagelist is ********.

BRINSTAR
should be
BANNED

it should have NEVER been legal, it's only legal because "oh it was legal in melee so we can use it!"

this is a DIFFERENT GAME
Why should Brinstar be banned, and of all the stages to complain about, why Brinstar?
 

Player-3

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because ps2 isn't that bad

PTAD only ****s over low tier characters that suck even with mk banned LOL

DP is kinda dumb but it's playable because you can easily avoid the walk off

Luigis.... yeah it's pretty stupid.
i'm looking at you, lucario



brinstar on the other hand, is a free win for metaknight.
..
inb4"oh but metaknights have lost"
i timed out a metaknight with pokemon trainer on brinstar but that doesn't mean that metaknight should ever lose on the stage
 

adumbrodeus

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?

You remade the ruleset to include absolutely ludicrous stages that mitigate player skill.

IE:

Game 1: Falcon vs D3, Falcon wins

Game 2: Falcon bans Green Greens, D3 still can take me to FD, Castle Siege, PTAD, AND Distant Planet. Whatever stage he feels most comfortable on.

Before I could just Castle Siege and play on FD (which isn't as bad as most people think).
No.

Most of the stages were already legal in our ruleset and those that were reintroduced we believed were wrongly removed in the first place due to early game knee-jerk reactions.



How do the stages we included mitigate player skill? All of the stages can be manipulated to be effective, just certain characters are poorer on them, which is the reality when you add in any stage, you could easily make the same argument for FD for example.


The fact is, low tiers are low tier for a reason, you can't expect people to build the ruleset specifically to make your MUs easier.


I probably missed this, and seeing how many people reacted, I do not doubt this at all, to be honest.


I think I didn't really think this part through, I apologize.

Let's see what I can say, I think it's different because some of the stages (Which I feel I should remind to anyone reading, that they are NOT being made mandatory) that are hardly used (normally banned), you counterpick it for the sake of testing it competitively and lose by some stupid stuff, which would be different if these things were known to begin with before legalizing it. Normally, one would avoid these stages when playing for money, or even ask/beg the TOs to not have them on the list, which goes into "What could have been" territory.

What I really mean is, in case I didn't make it clear, is that if everything that has been claimed possible hasn't been tested, why would we want to go to that stage with possibly false information in a tournament?

I agree it's wrong to ban a stage for no other reason than not liking it, but I also believe most, if not all, of the claims should be attended to beforehand.



I may have worded this improperly, sorry. I have acknowledged that the BBR does test things before doing whatever they do. But the general feel of the posts made by some of the more colorful people from the BBR make it seem more like "We don't believe you, you do it cause we don't want to." if worded differently, it might not have been seen like they just didn't care.

I also did not mean to speak of the BBR as a whole when speaking of this, even though it seems that way, I posted at 4 AM, tired johns. lol.
Most BBR members are not good at PR, it's not exactly the first priority in the selection process.



I understand what you're saying here, but it ends up being impractical to test absolutely everything that's brought up as a possibility. If issues come up it's easy enough for TOs to say, "new info shows that this stage shouldn't be legal" but for an overall standard, knee-jerk banning isn't a good idea.
 
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U guys next should do tests on Onett, Skyworld, and hanenbow. cuz i was testing those stages out myself and i see nothing wrong with them that completely makes MUs unplayable.
 

bigman40

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The fact is, low tiers are low tier for a reason, you can't expect people to build the ruleset specifically to make your MUs easier.

Whoa, whoa slow down mayne. You're going too far over everyone's head. They don't understand that concept yet dude. You gotta break it down more. :)
 

lordhelmet

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No.

Most of the stages were already legal in our ruleset and those that were reintroduced we believed were wrongly removed in the first place due to early game knee-jerk reactions.



How do the stages we included mitigate player skill? All of the stages can be manipulated to be effective, just certain characters are poorer on them, which is the reality when you add in any stage, you could easily make the same argument for FD for example.


The fact is, low tiers are low tier for a reason, you can't expect people to build the ruleset specifically to make your MUs easier.
This isn't about low tier characters. I used CF as an example because he's the character I know best. It's about "gay" stages that should not be legal because they **** over certain characters. I'll use examples of "viable" characters to please you:

Game 1: MK vs Olimar, Olimar wins.
Game 2: Olimar bans PTAD, MK can now choose RC which would have been banned before and MK gets a free win, yes it is a free win.

I'd type more but I've been through this argument a million times already and it's getting old.
 

Yikarur

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I tested Big blue by myself and I see nothing wrong with this stage if the stage is known. Every hazard or smacking on the track can be avoided (srsly), if you hit the track on the right site you survive 95% of the time, you shouldn't hit the track on the left side at all.

and some thousand pages before some BBR Member posted reasons for ban of the banned stages but didn't include big blue. o:
 

Crow!

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and some thousand pages before some BBR Member posted reasons for ban of the banned stages but didn't include big blue. o:
Good catch. I included it on my "Unclear" list, which I did not post earlier in this thread because I thought we were seeing enough controversy as it was. Idea was that items on the "Unclear" list were things I felt I would need to further test before I would feel confident putting them on one side or the other, either because the stage has properties that look likely for being broken but I've not seen broken in practice, or because I had not played on that stage enough to know for sure.

However, as for your first paragraph, keep in mind that testing something by yourself and doing it with other competitive players are two very different things.
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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About Onett...Well, besides the walkoff ledges, I think it's pretty good. There is space in between the walls, lots of room so you can avoid getting grabbed, and the cars can interrupt a CG.
 

san.

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Maybe brawl's stages in general were better well designed (in terms of camping and abusing a singular stage tactic) than we thought?
 

Mr. Escalator

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I've been loathe to make a post in this thread, given how terribly people have been treated for showing their support, but I just wanted to let you guys know that I think this was a great ruleset. A lot of people aren't understanding that new TOs would be really put off if the stagelist was incredibly short; they wouldn't understand why things are banned, but they would just run with it under the assumption that's how Brawl should be played. By having it a really diverse list, it gives TOs the option of looking at the list and taking what they think is acceptable/what their region wants. "I don't like LM or PTAD, so I'll remove those" is a better way to have it done than "Uh, I don't really care for this list, but I'd probably look scrubby if I added stages".

Options is what this list is about. You may not agree with some stages (I would remove one or two myself!), but you obviously do not have to run all of them. The way they broke up the starter stages helps prove that the BBR made this with a TO's options in mind.

So, uh, good job guys!
 

Amazing Ampharos

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U guys next should do tests on Onett, Skyworld, and hanenbow. cuz i was testing those stages out myself and i see nothing wrong with them that completely makes MUs unplayable.
Onett was actually talked about a bit, but ultimately too few people supported it to go further. You can honestly expect we'll be internally looking into Onett more in the future; whether it is ever legal in a BBR rule set obviously depends on the results of that. That's not a matter of the immediate future in any case.

Skyworld saw a lot of play early in the game's lifespan by us, enough to make it a pretty easy decision not to pursue further. It's a complex stage though so it could potentially warrant new and invigorated testing in the future, but obviously such should wait until the community settles down on the current list. I don't have a lot of hope for this stage, but more investigation could never hurt.

Hanenbow is pretty clear. We actually did have a discussion in the BBR about Hanenbow due to the doubles legality it enjoyed in the rule set 2.0 (which you will note is revoked for 3.0). It was an absolutely overwhelming consensus that the stage is broken on multiple levels, especially with the power of infinite run-away.

If your post was legitimate, this is a legitimate answer that I hope makes you happy. If you were being sarcastic with bad intent, you should be ashamed.

I tested Big blue by myself and I see nothing wrong with this stage if the stage is known. Every hazard or smacking on the track can be avoided (srsly), if you hit the track on the right site you survive 95% of the time, you shouldn't hit the track on the left side at all.

and some thousand pages before some BBR Member posted reasons for ban of the banned stages but didn't include big blue. o:
Big Blue has been looked at carefully by a few of us in the past. It has several concerning issues. You have run-away on the upper platforms which is very hard for much of the cast to catch, you have shield pushback forced KOs which make blocking unreasonably dangerous, and you have a general stage structure which is very skewed in a great number of match-ups. We can't claim to have reached a total conclusion on it, but Big Blue is exactly the kind of risk that we weren't taking with this rule set.

What some people don't understand is that we actually feel decently confident with the stages we presented as legal here. We put them under the lens and didn't find serious problems that didn't have clear answers. We, of course, always welcome the greater community doing that (which in 117 pages no one has done here), but we hope you understand that we actually did give the banned stages a good look as well as the stages we recommend as legal. Not every member agrees with every decision, but overall we did actually consider all these banned stages people are bringing up (I suspect some of which are with bad intentions, but whatever).

---

For the people complaining about Meta Knight, I want your honest opinion about what the balance implications of the following suggestion are. If you ignore me, I'll just take it as evidence that you have bad intentions and are just looking to cause trouble:

What if we banned Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar but kept all the rest of these stages?

I suspect that by anyone's analysis this would be worse for Meta Knight than EC 12 stage rules or our current rules. Ground based characters then ban Norfair with their personal ban and have to fight MK on... what? Distant Planet? It seems obviously worse for Meta Knight than any status quo. If you support making the rule set to intentionally limit Meta Knight, why don't you support this?
 

Crow!

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Heads up, guys:

There is a Brawl stage discussion forum on this very website. If there is a particular stage (or more than one) that's irking you, why not use a search and see if there is a thread about that very stage already in the stage discussion forum?

You might learn something you didn't know before. You might see that nobody has publicly talked about factor X about the stage before, and you can bring it up.


Or you might go to one of the two Official Stage Legality Discussion threads here:
Stage Specific: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282864
Philosophical: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282865
 

AfroQT

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I've said it before, so I'll say it again.

We build a system based around a logical ideal, in this case, that we should have as little removed as possible, with a fair balance of starters. If we have a character who is clearly too strong within this system, you don't completely over-haul the system to be unfair, you remove the character.

Really, I'm sure a lot of the *****ing would die down if MK was banned.
ROFL Thanks for speaking the mind of the BBR, that was SIGNIFICANTLY easier then i could of ever hoped.

You heard it here first.
 
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