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Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

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lordhelmet

Smash Master
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Everyone also "knows" that falcon vs D3 on fd is a horrible terrible idea.

BUT you just said that its not as bad as people think.

Did you ever think maybe its possible that PTAD and Dist. arent as bad as YOU think they are? Just like how Fd according to you isnt as bad as everyone else thinks it is?
Falcon vs D3 isn't even that bad of a match-up lol, but that's besides the point.

PTAD: CG -> bair offstage = GG, I can't recover. On top of that if D3 happens to have a large % lead or a stock lead he can CG me into cars, an entirely possible situation. There are also walls on the ledges on certain transitions that I can probably can infinited on (but IDK if they are tall enough tbh). On real stages most D3's won't try to gimp me because half the time that leads to them getting up-B spiked.

Distant Planet: I am completely outzoned. I have to stay on the green platform or I risk getting 0-deathed. If D3 gets a stock lead, I have to approach him and risk getting grabbed. In addition that will lead to excruciatingly long campfests that no one wants to sit through.
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
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i want to get one thing straight.

Midwest isn't "bad" because we play on "silly stages,"—actually that statement isn't even true, because the only stages legal in most tournaments in MW:E that aren't in other places are PS2, Pictochat, sometimes Norfair and Japes. More likely, we're "bad" because no other region has to drive through 2 hours of corn to get to another city where 5 smashers are. There's just too much space and we're too spread out. For example, my city has me, Count, Renegade, Krystedez I think, and Sovereign (top 3 in our region and I'm not active enough to be ranked lol), but there aren't really any smashfests here. I can drive an hour south to get to a city with 4-5 other players, an hour north for 2 more, 3 hours north for 4-5 more, drive 2 hours to Louisville for some, 2 hours to Springfield for 10ish, 2 hours to Cincinatti for some—point is, we're too spread out, there aren't enough smashfests, and there aren't enough drivers.

And we aren't even that bad lol, but there's no way the reason we aren't a top contender is because, "lol you play on PTAD and green greens all the time!1" because that isn't true.
 

uhmuzing

human-alien-cig
Writing Team
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I understand why the BBR does not approve of the LGL (why do y'all still have the Dimensional Cape stuff banned though?...), but when MK becomes the only viable character under this ruleset, will there be surgical adjustments brought back, or will there be another MK ban attempt?
 

C.J.

Smash Master
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PTAD: CG -> bair offstage = GG, I can't recover. On top of that if D3 happens to have a large % lead or a stock lead he can CG me into cars, an entirely possible situation. There are also walls on the ledges on certain transitions that I can probably can infinited on (but IDK if they are tall enough tbh). On real stages most D3's won't try to gimp me because half the time that leads to them getting up-B spiked.

Distant Planet: I am completely outzoned. I have to stay on the green platform or I risk getting 0-deathed. If D3 gets a stock lead, I have to approach him and risk getting grabbed. In addition that will lead to excruciatingly long campfests that no one wants to sit through.
He wasn't referring to that MU... you said everyone KNOWS the stages are gay as people KNOW DDD vs Falcon on FD is horrid. His statement has nothing to do with MUs and is lending to the idea that because many of the newly legalized stages haven't been thoroughly tested at high level play. So how can we KNOW that the stages are awful?
 

Anaky

Smash Champion
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Competitive Stages

Battlefield *
Final Destination *
Smashville *
Lylat Cruise*
Yoshi's Island*
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 1

* Denotes 3-stage Starter
* Denotes 5-stage Starter


Non-Competitive Stages
(use these if you're running a casual tournament)

Brinstar
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
^That^

10Chars
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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I understand why the BBR does not approve of the LGL (why do y'all still have the Dimensional Cape stuff banned though?...), but when MK becomes the only viable character under this ruleset, will there be surgical adjustments brought back, or will there be another MK ban attempt?
It's simpler just to ban unbeatable planking.
 

lordhelmet

Smash Master
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He wasn't referring to that MU... you said everyone KNOWS the stages are gay as people KNOW DDD vs Falcon on FD is horrid. His statement has nothing to do with MUs and is lending to the idea that because many of the newly legalized stages haven't been thoroughly tested at high level play. So how can we KNOW that the stages are awful?
I realize that, I'm saying if the BBR can back-up stages that were banned before (for a reason) with theory-craft, then I can shoot them down with theory-craft as well.
 

da K.I.D.

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He wasn't referring to that MU... you said everyone KNOWS the stages are gay as people KNOW DDD vs Falcon on FD is horrid. His statement has nothing to do with MUs and is lending to the idea that because many of the newly legalized stages haven't been thoroughly tested at high level play. So how can we KNOW that the stages are awful?
exactly this, tyvm for the explanation.
 

ADHD

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Just throwing this out there, since a lot of people seem to think having several strong CPs is game-breaking.... There are such things as secondaries. AKA METAKNIGHT LOOOOOOOOL

Furthermore, I've been using this ruleset for a few months now, and I've moved to 2 stage bans because of the numbers of counter-picks.

2 is very much a valid and viable option, though I feel 3 would be too much.
see above.
 

lordhelmet

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I already replied to that, and to further explain my stance; the videos on MMM's profile used to defend these "gay" stages were basically people at his apartment playing on them as a casual friendly. No testing was done to see how bad they could abuse the stages. And the only testing done was CG's at Distant Planet AFTER the stages became legal.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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I realize that, I'm saying if the BBR can back-up stages that were banned before (for a reason) with theory-craft, then I can shoot them down with theory-craft as well.
So...

Step 1: Theory craft 2007/08 - Man, these stages are really lame! We haven't really played on them, but man they're so gay. That's it, let's ban them!

Step 2: Metagame progresses.

Step 3: Some people and the BBR - Maybe we were too hasty to ban some of these stages. These seem alright, let's work on reasons why they're not as bad as we first assumed. I'm gonna play on some of these and see how they might work. Oh, wow. I guess they weren't as bad as we assumed. See no reason to leave them out, let's put them in as counterpicks to see how things adapt.

Step 4: Propose in Rule List 3.0.

Step 5: Oh man! These stages are really lame, we haven't really played them, but man they're so gay. There's some theory going around about how a character's really good on this stage! Forget about testing this to see if in fact we were too hasty with the ban, this was already banned before (see: step one) so there is really reason to ban it again. That's it, let's ban them!

Step 6: ???

Step 7: What?

---

So, do I have that about right, Helmet?
 

ADHD

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I already replied to that, and to further explain my stance; the videos on MMM's profile used to defend these "gay" stages were basically people at his apartment playing on them as a casual friendly. No testing was done to see how bad they could abuse the stages. And the only testing done was CG's at Distan Planet AFTER the stages became legal.
No one believed me when I said the BBR is bad..

Why do ppl defend their badness?
 

Espy Rose

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Wow, and you assume people won't do anything to win.

K.
People don't do everything within their power to win. Not even you.

1. They don't pick Meta Knight.
2. They don't abuse the levels available on this stage list (and never will if TOs never allow it, which would consequently allow the BBR to send each of those levels into the banned list. That is, if the levels turn out to be as bad as people honestly believe).
3. They don't pick Meta Knight.

And the only testing done was CG's at Distan Planet AFTER the stages became legal.
Absolutely incorrect. CGs at Distant Planet were being discussed and tested before Distant Planet was decided as a counterpick level for the recommended rule set.
 

DusK-The-Stray

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The thing is, the majority of us did ask for information and request opinions while the process was occurring, we just didn't ask it as a group or in a "recommendations for the next ruleset" thread, and seeing what this thread is right now, I think the reason for that is obvious.
I probably missed this, and seeing how many people reacted, I do not doubt this at all, to be honest.

And how is that different from any other case where you lose because of lack of knowledge of a stage or lack of MU knowledge?

This happens, and it's wrong to remove a stage because people don't know how to utilize it properly, otherwise you can literally make that argument for any stage in the game.


If you're talking about new info... then that happens all the time for every stage.
I think I didn't really think this part through, I apologize.

Let's see what I can say, I think it's different because some of the stages (Which I feel I should remind to anyone reading, that they are NOT being made mandatory) that are hardly used (normally banned), you counterpick it for the sake of testing it competitively and lose by some stupid stuff, which would be different if these things were known to begin with before legalizing it. Normally, one would avoid these stages when playing for money, or even ask/beg the TOs to not have them on the list, which goes into "What could have been" territory.

What I really mean is, in case I didn't make it clear, is that if everything that has been claimed possible hasn't been tested, why would we want to go to that stage with possibly false information in a tournament?

I agree it's wrong to ban a stage for no other reason than not liking it, but I also believe most, if not all, of the claims should be attended to beforehand.

Actually you're incorrect, a number of people in the BBR DO go out of their way to test claims.


The thing is, I don't necessarily know the exact conditions that caused something to occur, so if you find something it's usually a lot easier for you to reproduce it then it is for me.


Thats why we generally say "vids or it didn't happen".
I may have worded this improperly, sorry. I have acknowledged that the BBR does test things before doing whatever they do. But the general feel of the posts made by some of the more colorful people from the BBR make it seem more like "We don't believe you, you do it cause we don't want to." if worded differently, it might not have been seen like they just didn't care.

I also did not mean to speak of the BBR as a whole when speaking of this, even though it seems that way, I posted at 4 AM, tired johns. lol.
 

lordhelmet

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So...

Step 1: Theory craft 2007/08 - Man, these stages are really lame! We haven't really played on them, but man they're so gay. That's it, let's ban them!

Step 2: Metagame progresses.

Step 3: Some people and the BBR - Maybe we were too hasty to ban some of these stages. These seem alright, let's work on reasons why they're not as bad as we first assumed. I'm gonna play on some of these and see how they might work. Oh, wow. I guess they weren't as bad as we assumed. See no reason to leave them out, let's put them in as counterpicks to see how things adapt.

Step 4: Propose in Rule List 3.0.

Step 5: Oh man! These stages are really lame, we haven't really played them, but man they're so gay. There's some theory going around about how a character's really good on this stage! Forget about testing this to see if in fact we were too hasty with the ban, this was already banned before (see: step one) so there is really reason to ban it again. That's it, let's ban them!

Step 6: ???

Step 7: What?

---

So, do I have that about right, Helmet?
So...

Step 1: Have stages like Distant Planet/Mansion/Norfair in the CP list back in '08.

Step 2: People realize these stages mitigate player skill, and the stages become banned from most regions.

Step 3: Members of the BBR are playing Basic Brawl with some friends when the idea of fun stages pop into their heads. They didn't really see how bad they could abuse these stages and forgot why the banned them before, so they thought they'd reintroduce them and let someone lose money over them before they banned them in 4.0

Step 4: Propose in Rule List 3.0.

Step 5: Oh man! These stages really ar lame, perhaps we should ban them again!

Step 6: ???

Step 7: What?

---

So, do I have that about right, Juushichi?
 

ADHD

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It's why nobody believes you.
This ruleset recommendation didn't help my argument?

They have about 70% of their members.. actually, probably ALOT more who only use theory craft and very light, minute testing. How can their theory be accurate if our normal NJ event enterer can easily beat them all? You have to know what you're talking about before you theorize enormous claims.
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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Messages
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This ruleset recommendation didn't help my argument?
I read the fine print, probably something you never thought of doing.


They have about 70% of their members.. actually, probably ALOT more who only use theory craft and very light, minute testing.
How do you know this?
How can their theory be accurate if our normal NJ event enterer can easily beat them all?
Well, you are pretty good. Just an ***hole.
 

ADHD

Smash Hero
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Messages
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I read the fine print, probably something you never thought of doing.
k...

How do you know this?
Because I've been back there.


Well, you are pretty good. Just an ***hole.
That wasn't relevant. You'd get frustrated too if a sudden influctuation occured where extremist theory crafters were taken seriously for their silliness. BPC IS AGAINST MAKING BRAWL COMPETITIVE, and I mean literally, not my opinion! Hello, anyone? He wants freakin items, omg.
 

AfroQT

Smash Master
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Cave of Olmec
Just throwing this out there, since a lot of people seem to think having several strong CPs is game-breaking.... There are such things as secondaries.

What completely atrocious logic. Are you in the BBR? Maybe it's true that the BBR is trying to get MK banned, because im pretty sure MK does better then 95% of the cast on EVERY CP.

Brawl Back Room:
Pro MK Ban
Promote Character switching

Complete joke.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
10,184
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Chapel Hill, NC
look

if the BBR is composed of a bunch of misguided morons, then think about it this way:
since they're moronic in everything they do, there's no way you can expect them in their idiocy to see how "stupid" stages are, regardless of how simple it may be. therefore, you should present to them a thorough and simple to understand reporting on why the stages are broken.

you can do this in multiple ways:
1. controlled variable testing
2. friendly and tournament matches with commentary or with a clear demonstration of a "broken" element
2a. win tournaments using certain tactics on stages
3. use frame + pictoral data (very difficult to do it this way)

since it's so "obvious" that these stages are broken, then it really shouldn't take much effort at all to show why they're broken right? i don't have a preference as to how the stage list is, really but my main concern is how people like to cite isolated incidents without video/picture footage, argue about stages with limited reasoning and to descend to personal attacks (seriously, the midwest isn't "bad" just because we have liberal lists).

PERSONALLY as a falco main and marf secondary it'd be really nice to have a more conservative stage list + i think that metaknight is broken but i'm all for the community being happy so we should create a stage list to keep him in the metagame (even though i still don't support LGL or scrooging rules, lol), but that's my own personal bias. in the end, for the sake of comprehensively proving why we shouldn't have x or y stages my logical and reasonable side comes through and i demand data.
quoted so that people can see this.

if MK is better than every other character on their CP, then there are a few solutions:

1. remove the counterpicking system altogether
2. ban MK
3. create counterpicks that are bad for MK using custom stage (lolololololol)
4. limit the stage list to reduce the possible number of CPs for metaknight to a very slim amount and fight on stages that match starters as much as possible since starters are the middle ground for hte most amount of MUs
5. expand the stage list - since metaknight's dominance on counterpicks is roughly equal on each CP stage but other characters may become better on a given CP stage than they would on any of the ones available on the conservative list, give those other characters a chance

is that right? just wanted to clarify before i speak more on this issue, idrc if the solutions "don't make sense" - i want to know if those are all conceivable solutions to the situation at hand regarding the stage list or w/e
 

AfroQT

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I can't wait for someone to try to run away from a car, trip, and die at 40%.

Obviously their fault, they should of known they would trip.
We should wait for that to happen first before we take action though, in the meantime lets sit here and argue pointlessly
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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What completely atrocious logic. Are you in the BBR? Maybe it's true that the BBR is trying to get MK banned, because im pretty sure MK does better then 95% of the cast on EVERY CP.

Brawl Back Room:
Pro MK Ban
Promote Character switching

Complete joke.
I've said it before, so I'll say it again.

We build a system based around a logical ideal, in this case, that we should have as little removed as possible, with a fair balance of starters. If we have a character who is clearly too strong within this system, you don't completely over-haul the system to be unfair, you remove the character.

Really, I'm sure a lot of the *****ing would die down if MK was banned.
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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Because I've been back there.
Who knows, you could just be lying to give the BBR a bad rep because you got kicked out.

Also, when was the last time you were in the BBR?



That wasn't relevant. You'd get frustrated too if a sudden influctuation occured where extremist theory crafters were taken seriously for their silliness. BPC IS AGAINST MAKING BRAWL COMPETITIVE, and I mean literally, not my opinion! Hello, anyone? He wants freakin items, omg.
I don't see what's wrong with items. It's your fault if you get hit by them, and items are a core physic to the game.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Hm...food for thought.

Using all of the possible legal stages on this list, you have options that specifically hinder MK's ability to Perfect Plank. If these stages help MK more overall is another discussion, seeing how most MKs won't move post their favor 5 stages and thus we don't really have any evidence that he does better or worse on some of these stages.

Stage 1) Castle Siege. During the transition stages, MK cannot plank: no ledges to grab. During the Second Stage, MK cannot plank: no ledges to grab. That means for Slightly over 1/3 of the time on this stage, it's flat out impossible for MK to plank: 1/3 normal stages, and 3/3 of the transitions. There is also the fact that by planking, he runs the very small risk of being stuck under the stage and dying. Total Non-Plankable Time: Maybe 40% at best.

Stage 2) Delfino Plaza. There are three transitions where there are walk-offs, and thus no ledges to plank: the beach, and the two sidewalk sections. However, there is also that fact that during the flying sections, he can shark better than a great white. Total Non-Plankable time: Maybe 40% again. However, the trade off is not worth it for the vast majority of characters.

Stage 3) Norfair. Most of the time, this is a planking heaven, with a few select characters having a few more options to attempt to knock him away. However, there are times when lava comes from both the side of the stage, and the bottom of the stage. When this occurs, only one platform is free of lava, and you cannot plank safely, as you'll just touch the lava, go flying up, and then get punished. The lava walls can also force MK to switch sides that he's planking on, due to only Ike and Marth being able to hide in the lava. Total Non-Plankable Time: 5% at max, with a few times where he's forced to move away: maybe a dozen in any given 8 minute match? Not really worth it.

Stage 4) Port Town Aero Drive. The vast, vast majority of the time, there are zero ledges to grab. There is one transition with grabable ledges on the center platform, during a stop off of the track. However, there are platforms to both sides of this center piece, so characters can use a wide selection of moves to attempt to knock him off the one ledge. Or you know, just not bother as that happens so rarely. The moving platform is indeed sharkable, however his sharking ability is reduced, as he must go on top of the platform every 5 jumps. This is not Delfino where he can go grab the ledge, and then continue to spam Uairs. You have a small moment were you can engage him normally. There is also the fact he can't even shark during the normal stops. Total Non-Planking Time: 95% at least, with nerfed sharking. This stage is in fact an option to use against MK, if you don't have a heavily limited character.

Stage 5) Rainbow Cruise. Only the ship is plankable. Then again, seeing as this is a mostly aerial stage, for most characters this would just be suicide. However, a few select characters I believe would have a chance. Wario for example. And then you get oddities like Mr.Doom beating MKs here on their CP with Ike. However, I doubt that would be consistent here. (Then again, Ike has both more range in the air, and faster aerial speed...hm...) Total Non-Planking Time: Around 80%. For a few select characters, this is an option.

Stage 6) Pirate Ship. This falls in the same boat as Rainbow Cruise, pun intended. MK can only plank on the left side for starts: the right side dips into the water during the rock phase, and would force MK off the ledge and into the water. Technically, you now have a chance to play keep away, as in MK away from that ledge. More importantly however, is the water itself below that ledge. As you don't instantly die for going there, some characters have a few more options to attempt to deal with his planking. Toon Link for example could get the right angle on his boomerang and bombs for once. Ike can just chuck aether at him. Total Non-Planking Time: 0%, though some characters are given more options to attempt to knock MK off of his ledge.

In a conservative stage list, you only have Castle Siege (Any character can use), Delfino (Almost no character can use), and Rainbow Cruise (A select few can use). MK can just ban Castle Siege if he wants to perfect plank, and largely not worry about anything disrupting his planking. Who in their right mind is going to pick Delfino? Or Rainbow Cruise unless they are Wario and feel like giving it a go?

In the BBR recommended rule list, you have Castle Siege (Any character), Delfino (Almost no characters can use), Rainbow Cruise (A select few), Norfair (A select few again, I could see Wario outdoing MK here), PTAD (Most characters could use this), and Pirate Ship (A select few). MK can ban PTAD, but is then forced to deal with no planking for about 40% of the time on Castle Siege. Or risking a character like Wario outdoing him on Norfair.

Again, take this with a grain of salt. I haven't seen any videos of MKs trying to be as gay as possible at PTAD. And as I'm sure ADHD in his trolling, Inui like ways will be happy to point out: I'm just a theorycrafter. ;) But honestly, if you aren't going to have a LGL on MK, you basically need a stage list that is at least a bit odd to make sure you have at least a chance to disrupt MK's perfect planking with the stage itself. Granted, you also need to actually win one of the games in the first place to even get your CP choice...
 

clowsui

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As for the tardass two posts above me:

ADHD left the BR of his own accord.

I'm against items because they produce completely inconsistent results. That's not competitive.
 

uhmuzing

human-alien-cig
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I'm against items because they produce completely inconsistent results. That's not competitive.
I'm sure nobody is wanting the entire list of items legalized. Smash balls, pokeballs, and assist trophies are obviously bad. I can see reason in using a portion of the items though; not all items are anti-competitive. Alot of them are great.

I don't want items legalized either, but that's 'cause I'm scrubby like that.
 

StarLight

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 11, 2009
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I read the fine print, probably something you never thought of doing.
If you're referring to the bbr not FORCING the ruleset on anyone, that argument is bull**** and it has been this entire thread. If you're not, I wanted to say this anyways, lol. There are regions that will be forced to play this. To quote OS way back in this thread:

You do realize that the BBR members voting also consist of the most prevalent TOs out there, right? :p
This doesn't even bring into play the new TOs or the ignorant ones that think the player base will like the bbr ruleset more, just because of the name. I'm sure you're all quite aware of them as well.

I'm not saying the bbr is out to **** up the smash community. But when 20 people pass judgement on stages that are -this- controversial and then use their pull with/as TOs to make sure they get played and tested...Something seems a little off =/ Shouldn't you guys have done the testing before you released the ruleset?
 

lordhelmet

Smash Master
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On top of what StarLight said,

The BBR should've been prepared for this magnitude of a backlash with including such controversial stages and recommending them for competetive play. If they were prepared they would have tested and provided videos to show that these controversial stages are not abusable before releasing the ruleset.
 

uhmuzing

human-alien-cig
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I'm not saying the bbr is out to **** up the smash community. But when 20 people pass judgement on stages that are -this- controversial and then use their pull with/as TOs to make sure they get played and tested...Something seems a little off =/ Shouldn't you guys have done the testing before you released the ruleset?
It's been stated many times now that they did test stuff on these stages before the ruleset was released.
 

Espy Rose

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Because I've been back there.
He's right.
He was back there for all of two days. He knows everything that happens back there.

=====

I do agree with lordhelmet, in that the BBR could've prepared much more for the backlash of this rule set. At the very least, this will be a learning experience to everyone at the BBR, if otherwise a reinforcement of what happens when we're not 100% prepared for something of this magnitude.
 
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