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Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

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Rob_Gambino

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,206
what kind of idiot would CP PS2 against MK?

nado 0-deaths on the flying stage...
Unless you missed, where you would be much more likely be 0-death in free fall animation. PS2 is dumb cuz you spend more time fighting the dumb transformations than you do fighting for position / fighitng your opponent. It has nothing to do with characters being broken. It's not nearly as bad a lot of the others on this list but is still dumb.
 
Joined
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Messages
10,050
So if I make a good point, it will never matter to you because I don't place Top 3? Hmmmm... let me redirect you to this excerpt:
Good players making the rules, huh? I suppose Football would have been better off if the coaches and referees would've been players instead from the start, am I right? Totally, the players make the rulesets, question the coaches and referees, and show that they can make the game a better place. They don't just play the game with the rules they're given by those who don't play it, nooooooo, neverrrr!
By the way, (puts mod face on) stop trolling others with the videos thing.
 

Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,396
3DS FC
0559-7294-8323
Why would you end a post with your name? So arrogant.
Heh, It's just a habit from writing formal E-mails in industry/research. I don't really care one way or the other.
 

thegreatkazoo

Smash Master
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
3,128
Location
Atlanta, GA
I'd definitely get a video together if I had the recording capability. because it doesn't appear to work on certain characters like Yoshi or marth if they tilt the stick away. But I may be improperly buffering since I don't use D3 and am having to do things on the other controller with my elbows and feet. this definitely appears to work on the likes of RoB and Snake however.
Well, you don't need to worry about the recording capability. You can just ask me!

That's right: I am more than willing to record replays for those wanting to break (or support) this ruleset in half.

Just VM me for more info.

The experience argument is silly for a lot of reasons. The first is that it's basically an argument from credibility. In a debate, the credentials of the speaker simply do not matter. All that matters is the content of what is said. A lot of the smash community has a major problem with this, but it's a fundamental principle of logic. The second is that a lot of the people claiming to be experienced seemingly have very little experience on the stages they are so vehemently arguing against. How many serious matches has someone like ADHD played on stages like Port Town Aero Dive, Pirate Ship, or Distant Planet? Even in terms of non-serious matches, I bet it's a very small number. Of course, I welcome evidence to the contrary, and people like him have an easy avenue to take here. Capture videos of high level play on these stages showing them to be degenerate. If you are a high level player yourself, you already are in a very strong position to do this so it should be an easy request, right? This goes to any of you claiming to be much better than the BBR members who worked on this list. Use your experience to make evidence to support your points. Don't just claim you're automatically right and we're automatically wrong on the basis of credibility.
Sixty times this. People really need to read up on their logical fallacies.

I think a good way of getting some video on this is by hosting tournies that do just that. However, it would probably be best if such a tourney (that tests the brokenness--or lack thereof--of these stages) would by hosting a wifi tourney. Before the "ZOMG WIFI N00B" happens, I will disclose that I am a regular @ most monthlies in Atlanta for the past three months. Not that skill has anything to do with this, but knowing how some people have discredited BPC's claims... :rolleyes:

IMHO, the opposition that would come by testing the waters with this rule set offline would be too great for any TO to handle. The online community here would be a bit more receptive, as sign-ups are a bit more voluntary and relaxed to this kind of interpretation.

So, I will try to get that set up and post a thread with the videos later on.

Doing my part to help the community. ;)
 

mikeHAZE

Smash Legend
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
11,004
Location
North Hollywood, CA
Ask Dphat if he agrees with you.

EDIT: haze knows what im talkin about lol

EDIT2: I may suck at this game, but I don't run out of the room crying about when a room full of people are laughing at me
crying isn't even negative lol, especially considering my circumstances :).


But like i said, we can just leave it at you filling pots, me losing to bad characters, and me crying.


i'll see you at MLG friend :)
 

Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,396
3DS FC
0559-7294-8323
Unless you missed, where you would be much more likely be 0-death in free fall animation. PS2 is dumb cuz you spend more time fighting the dumb transformations than you do fighting for position / fighitng your opponent. It has nothing to do with characters being broken. It's not nearly as bad a lot of the others on this list but is still dumb.
Is that any worse than PS1? Most of the matches I see (across many skill levels) degrades to camping when a transformation comes up.
 

Johnny Citrus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
109
i feel like the world is ending reading this.

so much energy, are some of you guys normally this passionate/irrational or is it just brawl lol
 

Eddie G

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
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9,123
Location
Cleveland, OH
NNID
neohmarth216
I wasn't asking about just you two, I meant everybody in the tournament.

It's really easy to set up, there's no excuse for "being too busy" >_>

All you have to do is explode two bomb blocks without getting hurt.
I'm not sure who else used the stage at the tournament, if at all.

Well sure there's no excuse...if you're in practice mode or if both characters don't have a projectile which leads to no pressure from a distance. However, when I had control of the center and had him temporarily on the side of the stage, he couldn't initiate it because I was constantly chucking turnips at him while keeping my eyes open to punish a nado, I couldn't initiate it if I didn't want to eat a nado/shuttle loop/fair. A valid excuse for not initiating the glitch is obviously circumstantial, but in the case of our specific character matchup and how pressure is always involved even if we're at a distance...there's simply not enough time to activate the glitch, and there certainly wasn't an ample amount of time in the match we played there.
 

Rob_Gambino

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,206
I'll probably leave after I say this:



The problem with your argument (even if it's sarcastic) is that those stages aren't banned for those reasons.

Wario Ware gives random "awards;" both players can win, but one can get a star and the other one can get a super mushroom, which can cost the "shroomed" player a stock.

Corneria has a permanent wall, and DDD loves that.
Wario Ware- You should've put yourself in a position to where you would win the game and your opponent would lose the game. Another option would've been to put yourself in a position to where both players would lose the game, cancelling the possible random possibility of your opponent receiving a star. Oh my, the possible mindgames that could come from this stage. :psycho:

Corneria- Green Greens has 4 permanent walls if you're able to grab someone in the right direction while there is at least 1 block up (blocks appear constantly). Other stages such as delfino have walls. You know what else DDD loves, walk offs. Delfino and Castle Siege have walk offs. He likes long flat areas like Final Destination, Luigi's mansion, and Smashville We should ban those too since DDD likes em.
 

BBQTV

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
4,000
sakurai made brawl with the intention of dividing the fan base, we must not let him win!
 

mikeHAZE

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
11,004
Location
North Hollywood, CA
they want to essentially play on a stagelist that has the most even ground for everyone. (obviously in their opinion since someone will attack me)
 

MarKO X

Smash Champion
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from the Tijuana rule set...

"In the case of the timer running out, the Player with the lowest Ground Time recorded by the game forfeits all remaining Stock for his Team when determining a winner."

lol?
 

.AC.

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
1,122
actual criteria was used for determining whether a stage would be determined to be starter/cp/ banned, i'll post the criteria later.

@MarKO X

i think that's optional and there have been many complaints about it, but we have tested it and have found no problem with it.
 
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It's dumb, because there's nothing you can ban them for.

Edit: Incoming criteria? I'll keep an open mind for that.
 

Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,396
3DS FC
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I theory'd your mom in bed last night yo.

Tuen, think ur good cuz u can rite ur name?
Dude, if that made me good, I'd 'rite' my name three times.

-Tuen
-Tuen
-Tuen

they want to essentially play on a stagelist that has the most even ground for everyone. (obviously in their opinion since someone will attack me)
I love how the community at large cannot have a discussion without feeling like they'd get attacked (personally or otherwise) for stating an opinion. Good times everyone, good times.

edit: @mikeHAZE understandable. I don't really care either. The discussion environment is more annoying than anything, imo, that's all.
 

Col. Stauffenberg

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
1,989
Location
San Diego <3
I love how the community at large cannot have a discussion without feeling like they'd get attacked (personally or otherwise) for stating an opinion. Good times everyone, good times.
Yeah, I'm sure you can state something as simple as your own stagelist without being insulted.

It's dumb, because there's nothing you can ban them for.
Whoops, guess not.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
5,959
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Slippi.gg
KORO#668
pretty much sums up my thoughts nicely.
What this person says.

This stage list with still only 2 counterpicks...inb4 swarms of MK (not as big a deal as some others listed)
The getting rid of ledge grab limits...inb4 swarms of MK
the fact that no infinite is banned anymore (say goodbye to 6 character's metagames including one that has won tournaments and hello to more MK's)

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Some simple things will occur when this ruleset occurs
Someone faces a good MK.
The MK wins on the neutral
The opponent picks some random stage and wins
the MK asks for the 2 bans. OK, let's pick some other dumb stage, you sticking, good luck keeping up.
The other player will either A: Pick MK also, or B quit brawl. And I see either B happening, or A happening and then B happening afterwards
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On another note to the guy named BPC: How can you of all people voice that your decisions are good for a tournament ready game when you have never played any tournament before? Have you ever met a MK that plays remotely campy, as in the difficult to approach type of camping? Have you ever actually played someone good in your whole smash career or are you just assuming from either:

A. The random people you play on a weekly basis
B. The terrible bulls*** that is wifi
C. The idea that statistics alone can prove stuff (as in basing everything off of previous games

How can you claim that the d3 infinite is completely fine for tournaments since these character's aren't viable if you have never played a tournament yourself. Oh ho ho he is so not viable, I just read barlw statistics. Oh wait, Boss won a tournament with Luigi, oh wait BigLou is the top Georgian smash player and he mains Luigi, oh my god a Luigi user got 7th at MLG, wait, why is YoshQ suddenly so high on the rankings? WHOOPS. Maybe the infinite shouldn't be banned. Oh wait, too late, I wasn't thinking.
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This isn't rules for some random bulls*** games you have with some random friends down the block where you play on every stage possible. These are actual tournament rules for tournaments with 100, 200, or even 300 people. Get your facts together and play with actual good people before you claim that you have half the knowledge of anyone here from either the top being ADHD, one of the top 3 brawler's in the US, or B, some random above average player who has been in the tournament scene since 2005 (as in me).
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
What this person says.

This stage list with still only 2 counterpicks...inb4 swarms of MK (not as big a deal as some others listed)
The getting rid of ledge grab limits...inb4 swarms of MK
the fact that no infinite is banned anymore (say goodbye to 6 character's metagames including one that has won tournaments and hello to more MK's)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some simple things will occur when this ruleset occurs
Someone faces a good MK.
The MK wins on the neutral
The opponent picks some random stage and wins
the MK asks for the 2 bans. OK, let's pick some other dumb stage, you sticking, good luck keeping up.
The other player will either A: Pick MK also, or B quit brawl. And I see either B happening, or A happening and then B happening afterwards
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another note to the guy named BPC: How can you of all people voice that your decisions are good for a tournament ready game when you have never played any tournament before? Have you ever met a MK that plays remotely campy, as in the difficult to approach type of camping? Have you ever actually played someone good in your whole smash career or are you just assuming from either:

A. The random people you play on a weekly basis
B. The terrible bulls*** that is wifi
C. The idea that statistics alone can prove stuff (as in basing everything off of previous games

How can you claim that the d3 infinite is completely fine for tournaments since these character's aren't viable if you have never played a tournament yourself. Oh ho ho he is so not viable, I just read barlw statistics. Oh wait, Boss won a tournament with Luigi, oh wait BigLou is the top Georgian smash player and he mains Luigi, oh my god a Luigi user got 7th at MLG, wait, why is YoshQ suddenly so high on the rankings? WHOOPS. Maybe the infinite shouldn't be banned. Oh wait, too late, I wasn't thinking.
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This isn't rules for some random bulls*** games you have with some random friends down the block where you play on every stage possible. These are actual tournament rules for tournaments with 100, 200, or even 300 people. Get your facts together and play with actual good people before you claim that you have half the knowledge of anyone here from either the top being ADHD, one of the top 3 brawler's in the US, or B, some random above average player who has been in the tournament scene since 2005 (as in me).
Lulz, flaming BPC. All the cool kids are doing it.

Also, to my understanding, most of his stuff is from Sirlin. So yeah.
 

Crow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,415
Location
Columbus, OH
Corneria- How is this any different than Green Greens?

1. People set up behind the walls on the sides when they're leading percents and "basically shouldn't lose." Corneria has a ledge you can grab to grab some invincibility frames to approach. On Green Greens you got nothing.

2. "It is not reasonable to expect players to avoid arwings' lasers, and they deal too much damage." It not reasonable to expect players to avoid falling bombs. At least Arwings don't give any knockback. Falling bombs give loads of damage and kill you at insanely low percents.
@1: Not true; Green greens does in fact give you ways to get through. First of all, you can eliminate the wall. Most characters can safely do this on their own, and even those who cannot can simply wait for the apples to appear and then make use of those. When you do approach, you can use any of the three ledges to help you out, an apple or two, and lots of other stuff.

@2: one is only at risk of being hit by a falling bomb when one is underneath a wall segment which does not presently have its top. This provides many ways one can work to avoid getting hit by one - simplest being to not go excessively high in the air and then air dodge on reaction.

Wario Ware- "This stage regularly hands the victory to one player or the other through pure randomness. " How is this any different than Pictochat. The animations/hazards that come up for pictochat appear in a random order, yet you know all the types of animations. The games on Wario Ware appear in a random order, but we know all the games that are played. We all hear we need to learn the stages, so if we learned the games and won all the time it wouldn't be so random I guess.
The problem with Wario Ware isn't the mini games. It's that your reward or lack thereof for winning a mini game is random - and humongous. Worst case scenario is probably to become large when your opponent gets a super star and you are at low percents. Very common and bad is one player getting NOTHING when the opponent gets either prize.

Pictochat has a specific set of random transformations. Somewhere or other is a picture which superimposes all the hazards on top of each other (look it up); there are many areas which are 100% safe which you can occupy - not playing it safe is a risk the PLAYER chooses to take, and even then, the punishment for being risky and getting unlucky is quite reasonable.

If you believe Wario Ware randomly awards wins because of how powerful the punishments are when you lose (put yourself in bad position when you lost the game), then the same can be said for Port Town's cars, Jungle Japes Alligator, Green Greens bombs, Distant planet's man eating monster, Pirate Ship's bombs/spring/and ship itself, rainbow cruise's movement into blast zones, norfair and brinstar's lava, Frigate's rotations, Yoshi's Island Brawls falling cloud, Yoshi Island Melee's disappearing blocks, everywhere's walk off ledges.
1. There are no punishments for losing a mini game in Wario Ware. Unless you count the demoralizing squak through the Wiimote if you're using a non-GC control scheme.
2. Port Town's cars are quite predictable and avoidable.
3. The Klap Trap on Japes is 100% nonrandom. Watch the timer.
4. The Bulborb (spelling?) on Distant Planet is a joke of a hazard which pretty much doesn't deserve to be mentioned.
5. Pirate Ship's bombs give you time between being fired to exploding, and you can determine exactly where it will explode based on its initial trajectory if you're good enough. The other hazards are mostly nonrandom; while their appearance is random, their behavior is not and they give you plenty of time to react.
6. Rainbow cruise is 100% nonrandom.
7. Brinstar's lava is mostly nonrandom; read up about it.
8. Norfair's lava gives you sufficient warning and deals rather small amounts of damage; only the very closest of games could be thrown one way or the other because of the randomness of the hazards, and even then only very rarely - it would require like two perfectly placed lava sprays to accompany a simultaneous lava wall and lava rise.
9. Frigate's rotations themselves give plenty of warning and are not a concern here. You could make an argument about the proportion of time spent on one half of the stage versus the other may randomly favor one character or the other. This is fairly minor and is a risk the player CP-ing the stage just has to take.
10. The cloud on Yoshi's Island is actually a concern here. However, it affects a very small number of games, whereas winning a game on Wario Ware against a closely matched opponent without getting good luck on your side is very rare indeed.
11. Yoshi's Island: Melee's blocks are 100% nonrandom.
12. You're bringing ledges into the "the randomness is overbearing" argument? Really?
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Grieving No Longer
The number of people who don't know what the Bulborb is called makes me sad.

@Crow: <devil's advocate hat> He's talking about the punishment for screwing up being too large, not the randomness. </hat>
 

Crow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,415
Location
Columbus, OH
You can still bowsercide. You just now have to make sure your opponent loses before you do - you no longer get a special "Aww, poor low tier! We'll make up some rules to help you out." treatment.
 
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