Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[san.]

Bair is 7 frames.

I have actually played the MU so it's funny to hear people try to rationalize something but it isn't really working all too great.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bah, 7 frames, 8 frames. I was counting for the...turn around frame? >_> <_<

 

[Chuee]

Niddo with the johns

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Johns all day, every day.

 

[Laem]

Fair does hit behind Ike "kinda sorta not really" but it can if you end up in just the wrong spot after the roll. I also doubt Luigi's roll goes far enough to get through a standing Fair safely: most characters can't. SH doesn't AC, but it has a lot of IASA frames.

His Nair does wall against characters with very little range/movement speed, and can obviously hit well behind him (which is why you never roll towards Ike, particularly if you have crappy range). Bair can also wall, and is arguably unlikely to be PS'd due to be 8 frames, but that's another level of theory craft.

you can't really 'space' a stationary fair, though. Would kind of require a read regarding luigi's next move, compared to braindead retreating fairs. Do elaborate on sh fair with IASA frames. To me it's just fairs landing lag...
Everything else i can deff agree with.

@Laem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9kpTvm6CYA

cool story. actually kind of disappointed in you, the best ike whose posts i normally like, compared to niddo's, whose i normally dont like >.>
but yeah sure ike can time luigi out by spamming fairs and hoping they dont get PS'd LOL

 

[Chuee]

Johns all day, every day.

John Jacob Jingle Heimer Smitt.

 

[Steam]

just responding to things back there.

MK has the fastest F roll by four or five frames. but his F roll has MUCH less invincibility than most and has bad distance. hence why lucario's can be considered better sometimes.

but lucario has the fastest B roll and probably the the longest distance B roll : D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

While Luigi isn't stupid easy to keep out like many people say he is for most characters, he really isn't that easy to keep out all the time, I think saying just PS everything Ike does won't work as well imo. >>

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

Bam, IASA frame stuff. >_> And everything else.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yo T

the best ike whos posts you normally like and respect isnt giving you respectable responces, because your showing your self to be pig headed and ignorant concerning the subject matter which leads him to believe you arent worth the time it would take to explain the full scale of how this matchup plays out. Especially since Niddo and I pretty much did it for you already.

 

[Laem]

yo T

/caught off guard

pigheaded and ignorant.. damn
my points aren't even radical
there's just some firm status quo going on here with which i can't really agree, such as the 100% suckage of rolling into, and this entire luigi is permanently walled thing, making ppl say luigi is lowtier.
But yeah if ppl are just gonna flame new perspectives what's it for.

 

[san.]

I thought the clip was funny, and so I found a good excuse.

Anyways:

all this of course as a counterargument to ikes 'walling', the 'bane' of luigi.
no sane person rolls into his nair, his nair doesnt wall.

Nair can be used to "wall" opponents, but you have to consider landing options, too. If luigi gets close after a nair, we aren't going to throw another nair because of the startup frames. Nair has little cooldown so a jab or even bair would suffice.

You also have to consider that Luigi has trouble getting in, then both are essentially at even ground up close (Ike adv up close at low-mid %s, Luigi adv up close at high percents).

his fair walls, but stationary or approaching fair can definitely be rolled through(unless in this case, luigis, invinc frames arent during roughly the first half of his roll, but ima assume like any normal character they are).

Fair can't be rolled through very easily. Fair ends underneath Ike, which has a high chance of hitting Luigi during a roll animation. That is why some Ikes like to use retreating fair, because it covers rolls as well as other options. Also, I haven't heard of Luigi having a spectacular roll.

Fair, Nair, and jab all easily beat rolls. I was confused why you even put rolling as an option, considering good Luigis would probably never do something like this.

Initiate the roll as late as possible during fairs startup (way easier than as early as possible).
Retreating fair is a stalemate, but loses ground for ike.

It's too much of a risk for Luigi. Too early and he easily gets hit by fair. Too late and he gets jabbed. Good players won't consider this as a decent option without an above average roll.

btw need i mention that you forward roll behind him? rolling in front of just gets you hit LOL and fair doesnt hit behind ike(unless you count ike's back lol). sh fair doesnt AC, not sure whats the deal with fh.

You must realize the distance you must cover to roll behind Ike and miss getting hit by the end hitbox of fair which is in fact underneath and slightly behind Ike. Most Ikes retreat when using fair, which is even harder.

im iffy 'bout bair, it shouldn't wall but i wouldn't be suprised if it worked against luigi o_O. this of course due to mediocre range that suffices vs luigi and the sh AC. PS ***** bair, but i'll leave that out of the equation (for now..?).

PS doesn't **** bair. If Ike is retreating (which he should) Luigi is not fast enough to catch unlike characters like MK, Sonic, and Fox. You must also realize that it's a mixture of all of Ike's aerials in conjunction with his ground game.

I didn't feel like responding to this post because from my point of view you don't really have much knowledge on either characters' options if you listed Ike's ftilt as a spacing component and Luigi's roll as an approach.

Also note that I did not say Luigi gets permanently walled. Look a few pages back, and I even question the logic myself. Luigi needs clever mixups in approaching mixed with fast intercepts.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

luigi is mid tier because he can still do well against higher tier characters (im talking mid-high) that are fat (like DK, and he doens't do poorly against wario either, and i don't get why it says he does bad against DDD when boss does fine against coney but i won't argue that atm). he also does alright against higher tier character's that are light weight (olimar, pika, kirby, fox, etc.) hell some of those -1 MUs could be argued at 0 (peach, kirby and rob stick out to me here). if there were other weegee's besides biglou and boss around in tourney we would see him with better MUs. and while yes weegee diddy should be 0, that is still an even MU against a top 3 char, and he doesn't do poorly against falco either.

of course this is al just my opinion as my best friend blaze back in norcal is a weegee main and he has been going to tournies more recently and doing rather well against the norcal PR and beating down a lot of norcal's good non PR brawlers (has yet to lose to the DDD main who is quite good).

but just for referance we both think ike beats weegee hands down

but that's all the weegee rep i can throw down atm because i gotta go to work

EDIT: this was aimed at whoever said he should be low tier.
@san, you summed it up nicely

 

[smashkng]

Why not just ignore Laem he's just trolling us so hard.

 

[Flayl]

You don't know what trolling means.

 

[Laem]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

Bam, IASA frame stuff. >_> And everything else.

looked at this and it says there's IASA(which should mean any action is now inputtable) immediately after the hitbox has been out (if you land), that can't be right >.>
you got the data on sh fairs landing lag?
I do know now fh fair is free as **** at 60 frames

san i'd like to figure out just how much leeway there is for weegee.
what i do know (if the datas correct at least) is that luigi's roll is rather sad at 35 frames.

IM ACTUALLY NOT TROLLING LOL
rolling towards is just so practical at catching people off guard, my entire point has always been to defy this walling thing. It's in no way supposed to be your do-this-always thing.

oh and the ftilt thing was really just to be complete, it'd work vs a luigi that shields it (which is the status quo itt)

anyway one more thing
if you ask me
good players consider everything.

 

[Judo777]

Nah Crash already said the MU the way it is and Crash knows MU's.

Also Luigi jab is frame 2 to anyone who asked so its a bit faster but its shorter.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

looked at this and it says there's IASA(which should mean any action is now inputtable) immediately after the hitbox has been out (if you land), that can't be right >.>
you got the data on sh fairs landing lag?
I do know now fh fair is free as **** at 60 frames

san i'd like to figure out just how much leeway there is for weegee.
what i do know (if the datas correct at least) is that luigi's roll is rather sad at 35 frames.

IM ACTUALLY NOT TROLLING LOL
rolling towards is just so practical at catching people off guard, my entire point has always been to defy this walling thing. It's in no way supposed to be your do-this-always thing.

oh and the ftilt thing was really just to be complete, it'd work vs a luigi that shields it (which is the status quo itt)

anyway one more thing
if you ask me
good players consider everything.

It's all ripped using hacks dude, data is correct. IASA frames mean that Fair has a rather small amount of landing lag compared to the full duration of the attack, with only 22 frames of landing lag instead of the full 60 frames from using it in the air. I highly doubt Luigi has time to punish that out of anything outside of a PS, between range/defensive move against fair and then his range.

Beyond that, your post is just starting to become a mess dude. Luigi's roll is not a good option, at least against Ike, end of discussion.

 

[Laem]

It's all ripped using hacks dude, data is correct. IASA frames mean that Fair has a rather small amount of landing lag compared to the full duration of the attack, with only 22 frames of landing lag instead of the full 60 frames from using it in the air. I highly doubt Luigi has time to punish that out of anything outside of a PS, between range/defensive move against fair and then his range.

Beyond that, your post is just starting to become a mess dude. Luigi's roll is not a good option, at least against Ike, end of discussion.

22 frames of lag.. duh
i thought it said lag till frame 22

can you honestly say roll towards is ever 'good' as any1 versus any1? Doubt ya can.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Then why bring it up if it doesn't have the occasional use like MK's or Lucario's? >_>

And actually, I'm wrong again: IASA: "Interuptable As Soon As" frame. This is the frame where you can interrupt the current action with another one.


I need more sleep it would seem.

 

[Laem]

...nope
that'd mean fair has frame advantage on shield LOL

so mk's and lucario's have an occasional use (when would that be??)
does the char with the third best froll have this use as well? fourth best? tenth best?

 

[san.]

You're going off on a tangent. Quit while you're behind.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

...Laem, I'm going to politely suggest you figure out how to read frame data before bothering to argue about MU stuff again. Because you are really starting to just embarrass yourself.

 

[John12346]

MK's "roll towards" is good when you're Dtilt infiniting opponents

 

[da K.I.D.]

i love you john.

Btw
'walling' doesnt have to mean 'keeping somebody out forever' it just means 'keeping somebody out long enough to do more damage to them, then they are doing to you, there by, winning the match'

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

pit's froll kicks *** out of buffered out of fthrow at low percents because they have enough time to sidestep or get regrabbed. also his froll kicks *** out of jab cancell stuff because again unless it's marth or MK (who can pivot up b), you only have enough time to sidestep most of the time. while im not saying that frolling into people is usually a good thing. but with certain characters (mk, lucario, pit, idk who else but there must be someone else), frolling does indeed have it's uses.

 

[Orion*]

Rolling/Spotdodging in reaction to an action with characters that have good ones is pretty gay

I.E.

Kirby, MK, Pit, Lucario, Falco, Diddy, ect

 

[Shaya]

Kirby's rolls are so lame.

 

[Browny]

kirbys froll is only broken coz everyone is scared of his fsmash and sit in their shields rofl

 

[da K.I.D.]

rolling behind ike doesnt work tho cus he has something thats not only better, but also easier to execute than a pivot up b.

 

[Laem]

I'm not sure what you Ike mains have been smoking
Hit on frames 18-21
IASA on frame 22 if you land right after
therefore, for example spotdodge comes out on frame 23
Add in some frames for your opponents shieldstun
and you're safe on shield
This is what your data says;
This is incorrect.

 

[Shaya]

Laem,

22 frame IASA is the LANDING LAG.

 

[Laem]

22 frames of lag.. duh
i thought it said lag till frame 22

And actually, I'm wrong again: IASA: "Interuptable As Soon As" frame. This is the frame where you can interrupt the current action with another one.

I need more sleep it would seem.

just gonna leave this here for you shaya

right im growing quite tired of this ****
sh fair is approximately 50 frames
this basically means if you see ike jumping and predict hes gonna fair ´wall´ ya, considering fairs startup and your average roll invincibility are both 18 frames, roll at the same time (not too likely) or just slightly later (not too impossible) and it nets you give or take a 5 frame advantage, considering rolls ´afterlag´ of 18 frames n fairs 22 frames, and the time between hitbox coming out and actually landing.

san knew this basically n said its too difficult
i´d say meh, deff possible
result is a better position for the roller

**** all of ya

 

[Steam]

kirbys froll is only broken coz everyone is scared of his fsmash and sit in their shields rofl

and because whatever they want to use would probably miss because kirby has no hurtbox.

 

[Yikarur]

Rolling is so underrated. :0

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*sigh*

Somebody teach Laem "How to read basic frame data 101" please.

 

[Laem]

you're a joke niddo....

and yes for some reason kirby's roll is so good o_O

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

... rolling is not under rated. it is easy to punish and shouldn't be used near as much as just good spacing.
laem is lame.
lol (have wanted to pun that for a while)

just use some one with a fast controllable projectile. there, you have punished ike's move set and recovery almost in entirety and you have no need to roll at him at all

 

[Laem]

I'm talking about half-reaction half-read

Spoiler

readactive

rolls through attacks though, as in approaching with evasion through poor walls

not about rolling into some1 who's just standing there lol
******s

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rolling is so good lmao