Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Zajice]

Not to mention a character that ***** the ledge vs a character that gets ***** by the ledge.

 

[Chuee]

Not to mention a character that ***** the ledge vs a character that gets ***** by the ledge.

Clearly you forgot we have a lgl

 

[da K.I.D.]

clearly you forgot that mk doesnt give a crap about lgls and times people out with <30 ledge grabs rather regularly.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

He doesn't often get a lead against Falco. Lasers hit him first, force the approach, and the only time Falco ever loses the lead (against MK) is becuase MK kills earlier/Falco can get gimped.

 

[stingers]

what about the part where MK juggles falco for days and gets tons of damage that way?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Which is why it is even. Falco is a very strong lead keeper.

 

[Steam]

what about the part where MK juggles falco for days and gets tons of damage that way?

and MK doesn't really have all that much trouble chasing Falco down. he can definitely compete with falco up close due to him outspacing his jab with almost equally as fast moves and just about everything he has will clash with phantasm.

 

[Albert.]

I don't think non-MK players will ever understand how hard it is getting in on certain characters.

 

[Steam]

Which is why it is even. Falco is a very strong lead keeper.

so Falco has a noticible advantage on neutrals to offset getting ***** on MK's CP?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Basically yeah. I'm not a falco or MK player though, so don't take my word on it. I'm just saying that based off of matches I've seen.

 

[Steam]

Basically yeah. I'm not a falco or MK player though, so don't take my word on it. I'm just saying that based off of matches I've seen.

I'm not sure about that based off of MK having better tools against falco than several characters who also go even... so either that or Falco should have better matchups with the other characters...

also have there been falcos beating MKs often lately?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

why don't you just ask dehf himself about this MU? i guarentee he knows it better than any of you. and not just because he is the best falco. it is because so-cal is COMPLETELY OVERRUN BY MK MAINS. he has more MK mu experiance than any other falco ever hands down. so seriously, just go ask dehf

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, DEHF beat M2K the last time he played him so...thats kinda important.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

but didn't M2K beat DEHF at some MLG tournament?

 

[da K.I.D.]

MLG doesnt matter anymore, that mess was six months ago.

 

[Steam]

are Falcos beating MKs just as often as vice versa though?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

MLG doesnt matter anymore, that mess was six months ago.

... APEX was just as long then... if not longer

 

[da K.I.D.]

Apex was bigger, better, and had japanese people. But in all seriousness, apex really isnt relavent either aside from being the one time falco won a national.

 

[Chuee]

are Falcos beating MKs just as often as vice versa though?

yeah, pretty sure the only MKs Larry loses to are Tyrant and M2K, both of which he has taken sets off of (Tyrant more than M2K).
Plus, since we're talking about Apex, I think Rain beat every MK he faced there.

 

[Rizk18]

I think Fox vs MK should be 0. Along with Pikachu which should be -2 and not -3. Yes the CG hurts, but it's not instant death..or is it? Plus Fox can camp good and can shine cancel Tjolts when jumped after reflecting. And kills really early, also F-tilt at about 70-80% can lead to an U-smash. Just pointing out some things.

 

[John12346]

I think one could make an argument of 0 for Falco/MK on neutral stages...

But MK's CP is AT LEAST 2 in MK's favor, because of RC/Brinstar ******ry.

And on the third match, Falco can't go back to the (probably flat) stage he won on Game 1, PLUS he can't go to FD because of MK's ban, which severely limits his ability to pick a decent 3rd match stage.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

OK, let's guess that falco MK goes to...SV game 1. Falco wins, MK wins game 2. MK bans FD so Falco can still go to PS1 or BF.

Rizk, it is literally 0-death. We get a footstool on you out of the D-throw, so it is literally 0-death. We then QA/Jab 8 times and F-smash you the 9th hit, completely refreshing our moves. Shine is bad for reflecting jolts because then we can closer to you when your game is supposed to be campy. It is bad...trust me.

 

[Steam]

I think one could make an argument of 0 for Falco/MK on neutral stages...

But MK's CP is AT LEAST 2 in MK's favor, because of RC/Brinstar ******ry.

And on the third match, Falco can't go back to the (probably flat) stage he won on Game 1, PLUS he can't go to FD because of MK's ban, which severely limits his ability to pick a decent 3rd match stage.

I agree with this. probably evenish on flat stages but falco is kinda screwed on RC/brinstar... both of them pretty much take away everything falco has on MK

 

[Chuee]

Shine is bad for reflecting jolts because then we can closer to you when your game is supposed to be campy. It is bad...trust me.

Fox can cancel shine with roll or jump.
Agreed with everything else though. You could possibly make an argument for -2 without the footstool, but the footstool basically ruins any chance Fox has of making a comeback after the CG.

 

[Conviction]

Really don't get grabbed. The mu is bad, really bad. PSing the jolts is smarter, way smarter dog.

Talk about a mu I can actually info into please

 

[Rizk18]

I don't see a problem with canceling Shine with jump or roll. Plus most Pika's use Jolt to approach so I say whip out Shine and cancel it with roll or jump. Better than PSing it and safer because you can move out of the way.

 

[Conviction]

What? PSing is faster and gives you more options than shine cancelling. Can shine canceling allow you to shield? Walk? Dash? Use any attack not an aerial or usmash? It limits you.

In other cases like vs. Oli shine canceling is better or falco. Power shining works best against grenades and bombs. You just have to know if shine is the best option and which form of shine applications fits the projectile/situation.

 

[John12346]

OK, let's guess that falco MK goes to...SV game 1. Falco wins, MK wins game 2. MK bans FD so Falco can still go to PS1 or BF.

That's... not a very good situation for Falco to be in. Not against MK, anyway...

 

[Alphicans]

What are you talking about? BF is a fantastic stage for falco vs any character, and PS1 is one of his best as well.

 

[John12346]

I probably missed the memo on this one; I'm not up to date on my Falco stages.

What exactly makes BF and PS1 good not bad for Falco against MK?

 

[Shaya]

BF is very good for falco.

PS1 I'm not entirely sold on.
Though the non-transformation parts are pretty good for him, but ledges are terribad for falco haha

 

[Alphicans]

I probably missed the memo on this one; I'm not up to date on my Falco stages.

What exactly makes BF and PS1 good not bad for Falco against MK?

K well I am not 100% sure on PS1, but in general it's a good falco stage.

BF makes approaching falco vertically very difficult for MK. Of course he has very good dair/platform camping here, but if falco gets a lead it's very hard for MK to come back. Also, falco has very good platform pressure with nair, and has good moves to set up into laser locks -> grab if the MK lands on the platforms.

 

[phi1ny3]

It also gives falco's recovery a little more depth, in trading off for pure camp ability, Falco can aim for the plats w/ sideB cancels to make his recovery less susceptible to tornado/nair/smashes. DEHF uses this little tidbit extensively too iirc.

 

[John12346]

Oh, I see...

Well then how come I'm never seeing mid/high (not top, although it's sparse there too) level Flacos winning on the neutrals?

 

[Shaya]

Because while MK may have a slight advantage, the panellists decided that it was closer to 0 than it was 1. The same could be said to Diddy Kong.

If there was a 0.5, they would likely be at 0.5, not 0.

 

[Steam]

Because while MK may have a slight advantage, the panellists decided that it was closer to 0 than it was 1. The same could be said to Diddy Kong.

If there was a 0.5, they would likely be at 0.5, not 0.

if MK has a slight advantage on neutrals then the matchup is either +1 or maybe even +2 in his favor since falco basically has no hope on MK's CP

 

[Alphicans]

Oh, I see...

Well then how come I'm never seeing mid/high (not top, although it's sparse there too) level Flacos winning on the neutrals?

May I ask why that matters at all? The match-up chart isn't interested in how non top level matches go down.

 

[John12346]

Top level, as in, like, top 32 players in the world

 

[Judo777]

To correct one small thing on what ESAM said its was NOT easily agreed on that Falco or Diddy went even with MK as a decent amount of diddys and falcos alike think its MK's advantage (because it totally is lol) but I'm not taking sides.

 

[Shaya]

To correct one small thing on what ESAM said its was NOT easily agreed on that Falco or Diddy went even with MK as a decent amount of diddys and falcos alike think its MK's advantage (because it totally is lol) but I'm not taking sides.

This was true.