Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Alphicans]

Top level, as in, like, top 32 players in the world

Top level as in whoever plays the match-up the best.

 

[John12346]

And yet, even there, I still see MK bustin' booty and taking names against Falco on flat stages. I think it's appropriate to question why, even though Falco should be almost going even with him on flat stages on paper.

Although it happens slightly less than mid and high level play, where about 95% of the players are. But it still happens in top level play at least over 50%, if not even more, of the time.

 

[Alphicans]

Hey I agree that MK beats falco. I am just saying that we're not interested in how mid level play goes down.

 

[John12346]

Oh, I see...

I just thought we might benefit from taking it into some account, since mid level play and high level play amass a crapton of the current Brawl community.

 

[Chuee]

And yet, even there, I still see MK bustin' booty and taking names against Falco on flat stages. I think it's appropriate to question why, even though Falco should be almost going even with him on flat stages on paper.

maybe because the Falco player got outplayed.

 

[Alphicans]

Oh, I see...

I just thought we might benefit from taking it into some account, since mid level play and high level play amass a crapton of the current Brawl community.

And super low level play probably includes 99.9% of the people who play the game. Do we consider that too?

 

[John12346]

Well, no.

But I only mention it because the metagame seems to stem from most of high level play, rather than top level play, where all of the crazy outlier players are.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's like asking is your glass half empty or half full though to define how high we go to call it top levels of play.

 

[Rizk18]

Fox da bess..nuff nuff.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that in the last two years, we've seen a better win/lose ratio from Fox against MK than any other character that supposedly goes even with him. TKD beating every notable MK main in Socal, Nakat beating Tyrant, Trevonte beating both Tyrant and TKD's MK, Meep taking a game off of M2K with his Fox. I honestly can't think of any notable Fox players losing to MK in a set.

 

[Chuee]

I think that in the last two years, we've seen a better win/lose ratio from Fox against MK than any other character that supposedly goes even with him. TKD beating every notable MK main in Socal, Nakat beating Tyrant, Trevonte beating both Tyrant and TKD's MK, Meep taking a game off of M2K with his Fox. I honestly can't think of any notable Fox players losing to MK in a set.

Zeton was the one that beat Tyrant, not NAKAT.
but, I think Zeton and NAKAT have lost to MKs, but I don't think TKD or Trevonte have. Also, In japan, Yui beats just about every MK he faces.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Zeton was the one that beat Tyrant, not NAKAT.
but, I think Zeton and NAKAT have lost to MKs, but I don't think TKD or Trevonte have. Also, In japan, Yui beats just about every MK he faces.

Thanks for the correction. I thought I had that one wrong

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nakat beat Nairo at one occasion though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think that in the last two years, we've seen a better win/lose ratio from Fox against MK than any other character that supposedly goes even with him. TKD beating every notable MK main in Socal, Nakat beating Tyrant, Trevonte beating both Tyrant and TKD's MK, Meep taking a game off of M2K with his Fox. I honestly can't think of any notable Fox players losing to MK in a set.

Do we have any statistics for this?

TKD I can believe has a perfect or near perfect win/lose ratio based onw aht I've heard and seen but what about the others?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yui hasn't dropped a set to an MK in like a year.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Yui hasn't dropped a set to an MK in like a year.

this is legit. yui keeps is an MK slayer. i don't even know of any tourney sets online where he loses to an MK that is recent.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yui hasn't dropped a set to an MK in like a year.

Who does he lose to then when he does?

 

[Alphicans]

ICs probably.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nietono / Brood, Shu and Earth are his most recent tourney losses.

He uses MK vs IC, Pikachu and Sheik

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I see, so he does CP for the bad MU's for Fox at times.

Japan sure has a different meta.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He played Earth's sheik in tourney recently and almost beat him. Probably would have, but he SD'd. There's a video on YouTube somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htrJyR0TFCM

Ah, mislabeled. here you go.

I'm not entirely convinced Sheik is super unwinnable, this video notwithstanding. Advantage for sure, but Fox has tools that allow him to avoid ftilt if he's careful. Grab is a little different.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why isn't he turning around to Ftilt him when he tried to DI behind as much? He did it later in the vid but he kept messing up the turn around.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why isn't he turning around to Ftilt him when he tried to DI behind? He did it later in the vid but he kept messing up the turn around.

Actually, I noticed too. I think it's because he was using leftward DI and downward SDI which allows you to DI left and into the ground and escape faster (thus before the Sheik player could react).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah but even then you can still turn around and Ftilt just fine, as long as you pay attention the lock should still end with a tippered Usmash.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah but even then you can still turn around and Ftilt just fine, as long as you pay attention the lock should still end with a tippered Usmash.

Yeah, he was just slow. Still, he could have avoided them I think.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From what I understand even with mixing up DI, Sheik mains have told me you can still react to the Fox's DI and Ftilt in the direction according.

Avoiding her Ftilt is a lot harder for Fox, because he isn't about range, Wolf has similar issues, though his doesn't end in death I think, but because of his spacing game he can avoid the Ftilt a lot better, Fox doesn't have this even his his jumping and speed mobility.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's probably about +2 Sheik's favor, boooooordering +3. It's dumb for Fox, but Fox does have that godly killpower, and it doesn't help that they're mostly good vertically (dumb sheik air mobility). And yes, it's true that you can turn around w/ it, a common practice is after like 5 or so, that you alternate ftilts off each side.

Sheik also needs to make sure that the window of the lock is still there, after a certain percent he'll pop up too much esp. if it's fresh (although this is rare, it becomes annoying for sheik if she has to polish off fox's stock after 100% or so). I actually in some ways prefer fighting other spacies because imo they're easier to gimp juuuust in case the ftilt lock -> usmash is not an option any more.

Oh yeah, my favorite thing to do for the lulz is Dsmash them when they try to DI out of ftilt lock at certain percents because it gives them lol DI

 

[Judo777]

Technically all of the spacies can be tilt locked to death. Falcos is freaking hard as hell tho if they DI it right. Fox on the other hand is the easiest followed by wolf. Wolf and fox would be the same difficulty but due to wolfs weight we have to do it longer and if we screw up we get a frame 1 invinci shine.

I don't have a ton of experience in this MU although i have played some decent foxes (not great mind you). The biggest reason why i think this MU is strong advantage for sheik is partly due to the tilt lock being easier and fox in general being easier to kill, but also as has been stated foxes range and keep away game isn't as good as the other 2 as far as avoiding tilts.

Probably one of the large factors why i think its barely +3 is that I personally (and from what i have seen i think alot of sheiks are in the same boat) don't even know the fox MU. Like i played Ripple's fox at MLG (its his answer to falco often times) and second stock i dropped the tilt lock then died and my ftilt refreshed so i couldn't use the lock anymore. He almost took my entire second stock back because i honestly don't know how to fight the MU if I'm not tilt locking. Despite this i managed to kill him then took his last stock with relative ease landing an ftilt.

Alot of sheiks it seems don't really know the MU because we kinda don't need to. Treat him like any other character until he hits 25ish-40ish% percent and land an ftilt. (obviously there are traps and setup with throws to land it but thats the premise.) I've never lost to fox (granted i haven't played TKD who might very well **** me).

@that vid earth started the tilt lock too soon first stock (i knew he would) and as you said he could have easily turned it around.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why does this chart say Kirby is EVEN with Diddy? That's clearly wrong. Kirby is *** vs Diddy. Kirby has sucha hard time vs Diddy it's hilarious.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why does this chart say Kirby is EVEN with Diddy? That's clearly wrong. Kirby is *** vs Diddy. Kirby has sucha hard time vs Diddy it's hilarious.

Probably yet another MU that looks stupid due to "lol random compromise time".

From what I've heard from some people, the "discussions" for some of the MUs are fairly facepalm worthy, and too many compromises when it's clear one board/panel for a character is clearly delusional.

That, and the smaller number scale screws things up as well. *looks at MK's numbers*

 

[Matador]

When does this chart get updated again? After Apex and whatnot?

 

[Shaya]

When does this chart get updated again? After Apex and whatnot?

Probably when meta knight is next looking like he has a whole new crop of counters/even match ups.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

tbh if they add more numbers it should just be another whole number (+-5) because if they add .5's to the chart then it's exactly the same as we had before. there is no differance between .5 and 55:45 which is not what they are trying to accomplish. if im not mistaken it'll probably look like

0-even
1-slight disadvantage (even on neutrals but only character can be hard CP'd or something like that)
2-small disadvantage
3-medium disadvantage
4-large advantage
5-unwinnable

close?

@shaya

soooo true lol

 

[Shaya]

People should avoid taken my obviously trolling troll comments seriously.

On the other hand, Diddy Kong is more broken than MK. So I think the MU chart will be updated when the diddy's stop throwing a sook and realise they +2 the guy.

The guy being meta knight, btw.

 

[Matador]

Probably when meta knight is next looking like he has a whole new crop of counters/even match ups.

Oh, cool. That won't be long.

We already have Fox, lol

 

[Shaya]

Oh, BUT SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY.

We'll be looking at updating it after the tier list. Which is looking at a July-ish release.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

so how do you guys even get all the character statistics needed for the tier list? do you go to the tourney results threads in the character boards and then calculate them all together or how exactly does that work? im curious because if it is our tourney results guy hasn't been around lately and ours isn't up to date. i mean the results are in the posts but you guys want stuff from the OP i would guess if this is even how you do it.

 

[John12346]

Maharba, you're missing the point of MU numbers.

You just quantify them as definitions, not values.

+1 = slight advantage, not 55:45 or 60:40

It's true that the ratio probably falls somewhere within that range in a +1 case, but to avoid giving arbitrary, generally disagreed upon ratios to specific matchups, we just leave it at "the character has a slight advantage."

Either that, or you were being sarcastic, and I missed it completely...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

tbh if they add more numbers it should just be another whole number (+-5) because if they add .5's to the chart then it's exactly the same as we had before. there is no differance between .5 and 55:45 which is not what they are trying to accomplish. if im not mistaken it'll probably look like

0-even
1-slight disadvantage (even on neutrals but only character can be hard CP'd or something like that)
2-small disadvantage
3-medium disadvantage
4-large advantage
5-unwinnable

close?

@shaya

soooo true lol

Whatever the current system is, it's wrong if it says MK has neutral MUs. >_> I don't care if it's only because of rounding issues: if it's happening, add more numbers.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i know that they aren't related. but my point was that everyone agrees MK should not be even with any character in this game and if they add .5's to the numbers then it's just the old system with words slapped on it instead of ratios. that's all im saying.

but idc about that as i really do just wanna know what goes into making the tier list? i mean if it's just tourney results how far back do they reach? and also what if one character starts picking up lots of momentum just like a month or less before the release but it is noticable enough to possibly place them higher? do they just have to wait until the next tier list?