Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Kewkky]

Port Priority doesn't count !!

That too. Port priority affects MUs like Kirby vs Snake, where if Snake has port priority we lose some of the things we can do to him, and when we have priority the same thing goes for Snake (but against any other character). This makes the Snake MU even harder to discern, yet another factor that interferes with our being able to have a solid MU chart. So, of course we will never be able to please everyone, and it will never be 100% accurate, since we're going off of opinions and collective thinking to decide how the MUs really are, and same thing goes for the tier list.

And I repeat, if Smash was like any other fighting game, there wouldn't be this much to discuss about the game, and making a tier list/MU chart would be far easier and less arguable.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Then I have to say, I don't envy other fighting games.

Brawl MU discussion has to be far more interesting than, say, SFIV MU discussion.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But at least it's pretty clear.

 

[Seagull Joe]

My opinion for Wolf's matchups based on my experience playing:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

 

[Shaya]

IMO, Marth v Falco is even.
HOWEVER, I feel that for the most part, using SF type numbers, he would be 55:45 (I'm not talking about how smash players see 55:45) because of the plain stupidity of a 0 to death that OCCURS OFTEN.

I would call it 0. But there are things that would slightly tip it if there were a 0.5 of sorts. But it's closer to even than it is to an advantage, because while that 0 to death exists, it isn't ... paramount to the match up.

 

[Alphicans]

The 0-death shouldn't happen as often as it does. The spacing has to be pretty perfect for falco not to be able to sdi the spike. I don't know why gluttony doesn't sdi that **** :/ (not trying to start a EU vs NA debate lol).

I personally hate the match-up, and suck total balls at it. I prefer using GaW over falco, that's how bad I am at it.

 

[Shaya]

Larry's been 0-death'd by even the scrubbiest of Marths.

 

[Alphicans]

Maybe the spacing isn't that tight, but just the other day I sdi'd a cg to spike and it seemed like I was pretty far off the stage.

 

[Spelt]

dehf probably doesn't SDI it because he's a scrub.

 

[Shaya]

DEHF is the master of SDIng the spike from the years of falco dittos.
Just Marth too goooood.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont recall any other marths in socal who would do that in tournament, except mike. iirc using the old method he believes the MU to be 50:50. You also dont need to sdi the falco spike onto the stage, at least thats not how I see falcos attempt to recover from it opting instead to use a b reversed up-b

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mostly agreed with Joe's list. I'd put Mario as +1, Samus as +3 and Diddy as -1 though. The rest looks spot on.

Wario is -3 though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

just wanted to say. In SF, they dont use multiples of 5 in their ratios.

in SF, its either 5:5 or 6:4

 

[san.]

I think of the MU ratio system like a sine wave pulse, with even at the peak.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Mostly agreed with Joe's list. I'd put Mario as +1, Samus as +3 and Diddy as -1 though. The rest looks spot on.

Wario is -3 though.

I agree with Mario and Samus as +1 and +3 based on playing Boss and Noid. Mario is the hardest low tier for Wolf probably.

I won't say Wario is -3 till I play a Cg'ing Wario, which would probably sway my opinion to make it -3 instead of -2.

Diddy I still see as even based on my experiences. Wolf combos Diddy and Diddy combos Wolf. It's a really tipsy turvy matchup where whoever is in the worse position is more in trouble. Wolf is good with nanerz the same as Diddy and he can even reflect em'. There also isn't any stage Diddy can take Wolf to to gain a significant advantage. It's actually the opposite because Wolf can take Diddy to Brinstar, Rc, or Frigate even. Diddy can take Wolf to neutrals or Picto and the matchup still would be even. The hazards on Picto just make the stage more random and doesn't really give anyone an advantage unless they get hit by some stupid hazard. Halberd I think Wolf wins cause Diddy kills more-so off the sides and Wolf kills off the top with Fair. Fd is really big and Wolf's aerial mobility allows him to move around the air swiftly, which makes him not have to approach on the ground unless he wants to.

I got some replays saved vs Boss today in a set of serious friendlies. I won 2-1. I lost first round from some hilarious bs lmao.

 

[Kewkky]

just wanted to say. In SF, they dont use multiples of 5 in their ratios.

in SF, its either 5:5 or 6:4

They have 9 ratings, which are 1:9, 2:8, 3:7, 4:6, 5:5, 6:4, 7:3, 8:2 and 9:1 (since 0:10 and 10:0 are normally never used).

We have 9 ratings, which are -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3 and +4.

9 ratings in SF, and 9 ratings in Brawl... We have the same rating system, it's just named differently. That's what I'm making of it, at least. The only reason why there's more arguments concerning MUs in Brawl than on SF is because SF is a traditional fighter, so it's easier for them to do what they've always been doing, while Brawl has so many factors coming in an out of every match. Stage-wise advantages, port priority, play styles, LGLs/infinites' rules, you name it, all of them affect MUs and make it harder to make a great MU chart. Like Supreme Dirt implied (probably indirectly), that's why our discussions are more intense than other fighting games' discussions, we all have different views on things because we're used to playing the same scenario with different factors, and it slows down progress a lot in terms of MU discussions.


Okay I'm just gonna leave it there since people are talking about other stuff.

 

[Judo777]

I think of the MU ratio system like a sine wave pulse, with even at the peak.

I don't follow that at all lol. Pretty neat sounding idea but you lost me.

 

[san.]

I guess more like a parabola. If you look at a curve, the more you go out the steeper the curve gets.

Thinking how MU numbers close to even encompass a small range in the beginning, that gets larger the farther out you go until you reach +/- 4

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it would be an offset parabola though with each character as the ratios that make their match ups would not come out balanced. and since we are all doing what we think our character's MUs should look like im gonna through out mine.


-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:
+4:

im at work right now so i only get to use my computer on my breaks but if you have any questions as to why i think certain MUs are the way i listed them please just ask and i will answer when i get my next break.

edit:
next time ill just use go advanced and click the faces, typing them out results in weird character versions

 

[TheReflexWonder]

+4 against Bowser? What easily-accessible infinite does Pit have against him?

 

[Poltergust]

I also don't agree with Pit having a +1 on Yoshi. I honestly can't think of a reason why he would have the advantage in that match-up. He doesn't really have anything special on Yoshi (and vice versa). =/

I'm just going to list all the other MUs I disagreed with (which are all -1s, strangely).

- I feel the strongest about this. I'm absolutely positive it's a 0.
- Another 0.
- ????? I have no clue how to label this guy. A -1 seems off now, though.
- No matter how many Peaches I've played, none of them made me feel like I was playing a disadvantaged match-up. Yet another 0.
Alreadly explained.
This one could also be a 0. Shelda is fine, though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

+3 vs Dk? And +4 vs Bowser? What the ****? Also, why would Falco NOT have an advantage on Pit. Falco seems to end Pit pretty easily with cg and laser camp.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well Pit has the fact that he's a pretty good character on his side compared to the fact that Yoshi is garbage. And Falco doesn't "****" Pit though I would've given Falco a +1. Then again I think Pit beats Lucario, Peach and ZSS as well so I obviously must be biased.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I don't really see why luigi would do better than mario when it comes to pit

 

[Poltergust]

Well Pit has the fact that he's a pretty good character on his side compared to the fact that Yoshi is garbage.

And that helps him... how?

Olimar is a good character and Yoshi's even with him.
Ice Climbers are a good character(s?) and Yoshi beats them.

It doesn't matter how "good" a character is. What matters is what the characters can do to each other in their match-ups. Tiers have no bearing on MU discussions.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I thought Pit's match-ups are more like:

-2 vs MK, Wario
-1 vs Falco, Olimar, Marth, TL, Diddy
0 vs IC, DDD, Wolf, Sheik, Pikachu, Snake, GW
+1 vs p. much everybody else

Edit @Polt: I think Pit's tools are lot more "basic" ... the things Olimar and IC are outstanding at are situational, kind of gimmicks [although obviously powerful] so a character of extremes [which Yoshi undeniably is] may have good tools around these specific things. In Pit's case however the things he's good at compared to the things Yoshi is bad at pretty much amounts to a +1 for Pit. Because there's really no "gimmick" to get around.

Man I keep editing that post because of horrible wording *smh*

 

[Poltergust]

I see what you mean with that, because that's the reasoning I took with characters like Pikachu and Sonic (going both ways).

The thing is, I don't think what Pit has helps him in such a beneficial way that Yoshi would be at a disadvantage.

EDIT: lol at Yoshi being "a character of extremes." I consider Yoshi to be a "jack of all trades" who doesn't excel in any particular field (except for grabs).

 

[z00ted]

Pit loses to Peach -1, imo.

It's definitely not even.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I see what you mean with that, because that's the reasoning I took with characters like Pikachu and Sonic (going both ways).

The thing is, I don't think what Pit has helps him in such a beneficial way that Yoshi would be at a disadvantage.

EDIT: lol at Yoshi being "a character of extremes." I consider Yoshi to be a "jack of all trades" who doesn't excel in any particular field (except for grabs).

Uhm yeah, Yoshi does excel / is good at few things: mobility, survivability and anti-shield game ... good attributes to have against Olimar and IC. That doesn't make him a Jack of all trade character at all though ... I still going to stick to my claim that he's a character of extremes and that he's under-average at everything I didn't mention.

And I don't think that Yoshi's good attributes help him a lot vs Pit because Pit can camp Yoshi hard, is flexible enough to handle Yoshi's mobility and hardly needs his shield to camp.
Pit has better damage output [most of his moves deal like 15%+] and even his fsmash is safe on block against Yoshi [p. sure he can't grab it in any way either]. Yoshi's not strong at camping, Pit can deal with his "approaches" fine and can effectively prevent him from abusing his strengths.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pit has better damage output [most of his moves deal like 15%+] and even his fsmash is safe on block against Yoshi [p. sure he can't grab it in any way either].

Their damage output is comparable, I think. Also, can't Yoshi spotdodge in the middle of F-Smash and then punish him...?

 

[Conviction]

What trait of pit makes the fox mu in his favor, I've always found it as even.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well Pit has the fact that he's a pretty good character on his side compared to the fact that Yoshi is garbage. And Falco doesn't "****" Pit though I would've given Falco a +1. Then again I think Pit beats Lucario, Peach and ZSS as well so I obviously must be biased.

This logic is just so...

Uhm yeah, Yoshi does excel / is good at few things: mobility, survivability and anti-shield game ... good attributes to have against Olimar and IC. That doesn't make him a Jack of all trade character at all though ... I still going to stick to my claim that he's a character of extremes and that he's under-average at everything I didn't mention.

And I don't think that Yoshi's good attributes help him a lot vs Pit because Pit can camp Yoshi hard, is flexible enough to handle Yoshi's mobility and hardly needs his shield to camp.
Pit has better damage output [most of his moves deal like 15%+] and even his fsmash is safe on block against Yoshi [p. sure he can't grab it in any way either]. Yoshi's not strong at camping, Pit can deal with his "approaches" fine and can effectively prevent him from abusing his strengths.

Yoshi has:

Amazing mobility
Amazing grab game
Decent ground game
Decent air game
Decent Strings/Combos
Decent Edge Guarding
Good Recovery (in a large majority of cases)
Decent priority
Bad shield (conventionally)
Decent defense game
Decent approach game
etc.

Seems like a Jack to me.

Yoshi can spotdodge inbetween Pit's Fsmash hits.

Video of the MU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALe0YvvT5Co&feature=related (Yes, it's Crews and on RC, get over it.)

Basically, while Pit DOES camp Yoshi, he doesn't really have safe options if Yoshi is spacing him at mid range. Yoshi's mobility helps him keep this positioning and to get there fast, despite Pit's camp. Pit's not easy to juggle though, and damage output tends to be slow outside of a few low percent Bair strings, or whatever. Pit also has trouble killing Yoshi, so it evens out, especially since Yoshi has an easier time killing with a quick Usmash at the preferred spacing from Pit.

 

[Conviction]

Delta has to be searching "yoshi camping" haha

 

[Alphicans]

This isn't just me talking, but I've seen a lot of pits talk about how much they hate the GaW match-up. To me it has always seemed like a +1/+2 in GaW's favour, and most pits seem to agree with that. I know some think it's even though.

 

[Delta-cod]

I actually namesearch "Yoshi" irl.

 

[Conviction]

Not many results then lol, but when is mystic coming back? I want to hear his reasonings to some of these questions.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf ends Yoshi with three moves (Laser, Bair, and Shine). The end.

In all seriousness though, if Yoshi's played aggro then they wouldn't have as hard a time at the Wolf matchup. I played Polt and Sharky and they both try to approach funky or just camp. Oh. (The Va Yoshi) plays the matchup aggro, which makes me have a more diffficult time. He also does a lot of up b baiting into dash grab. Regularly this wouldn't work, but if you ps the egg or shield it then you still get grabbed. Best option would be for Wolf to shine cancel when the egg hits his reflector into a jumpshine.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshis play differently depending on the match up at hand. Even in general, all Yoshis have distinct styles/tricks they excel at. Sharky and Polt are probably just doing it wrong. =P

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

hey guys ill answer your questions in about 2 hours because my lap top is dying and i don't have my charger, im sorry it's taking so long but i have 30 seconds before it dies.

 

[san.]

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:



I something similar the day this topic was made but.

Let's start out with things that should be worse
should be 0.
Ike seems to have the advantage, being able to heavily pressure Yoshi's defense, etc, but Ike has trouble dealing with grab mixups and the CG to offstage. Ike can't space yoshi too reliably because of yoshi's quick aerial speed. Yoshi has a decent weight, although it is pretty easy to kill him.

Could be -1, could be 0. I have seen the high level players go back and forth with each other so maybe it's fine?

PT- I think we're even with squirtle with the shenanigans and beat Charizard/Ivysaur pretty easily.. Just feels like a 0, even though I have 0 PT experience..

is 60:40 for ZSS.. is that -1 or -2? ZSS is a tiny bit tougher than the other people in -1, but not by much. She's easier than DDD and DDD is already pretty winnable. Meh, group them together. -2 or -1, doesn't matter I suppose.

is 0 as long as every grab = death. If not, it swings into Ike's favor pretty harshly.
Ike can camp ICs pretty easily, since he can outrange their uairs and blizzards. All of Ike's moves separate the two easily. Nana will die incredibly quick each match. They even have to worry about getting grabbed, because if Ike grabs popo, he can pummel, bthrow popo, and fsmash Nana. I have pulled this off on multiple ICs players. Nana will run into many of Ike's smashes. 1 missed CG is really horrible in the MU.


0. Falco has to rely on close-ranged tactics to get in the most damage, but Ike's close-ranged game is just as good if not better if you mix in Ike's aerials. Falco has to worry a lot about their recoveries. 90% of my kills on Falco comes from hitting them out of their recovery or a quick bair. Falco has to be conservative with aerial use, also. Ike can choose to camp for the first 30% or so without getting grabbed, or play up close the entire match if he so wishes. Ike can punish SHDL pretty easily, too.

Should be 0. Seems like a pretty darn fair MU in general. Both can harass each other offstage pretty easily. Approaching for either isn't a guaranteed advantage, trying to make use of each other's blind spots. Marth can get dancing blade in pretty effectively, but it's only so effective. Marth defenitely has to worry about Ike's bair as well as recovery offstage. If marth upBs to the stage when Ike grabs the edge, Ike can fair Marth back offstage if Marth is close enough, or uair for the kill around 110.

Should be at least 0. It is difficult for Wario to get past jabs, grabs, nair, and other longer ranged aerials. Wario has to outpredict Ike when getting inside or he will be severely punished. Ike is pretty easy to get farts on, though. This is without factoring in Ike's infinite on Wario, since I haven't really seen it used in action.

- 0
Pika has a nice CG on Ike, goes to like 60. But it is hard to get that grab in. Pika could get around half that damage before getting the CG in. Pika has to be quick with aerial options or he gets outranged. Jab is really bad for Pika. MU is Ike avoiding the CG and playing slight catchup in % while pika struggles to find the best opportunity to kill

0
Neither has anything particularly effective over the other, as long as each plays correctly. G&W can't rely on his range in this MU but he has other options that make it even-smart use of upB and nair.

After playing NAKAT and watching Mr. Doom play Zeton, the MU isn't that bad. It's just an extreme MU for both sides, due to the glass canon nature of fox. Fox is ridiculously easy to jab, lol.

0, neither has anything particularly effective on the other. Seems pretty fair to me.

0, Sheik is way too light, and her recovery is too punishable for this to be +1. She has trouble killing, and even when she's Zelda, she still has trouble killing.

+1 Ike. The only way samus can kill us is through dair. It's risky doing that due to the nature of Ike's upB. Samus is pretty tanky and has some nice mixups on us. Maybe it's 0 after all, I'll accept either I suppose. Still leaning towards +1


Ikes don't know how to play the MU. One must limit yourself to nair, jabs, and utilt to be effective. Jigglypuff can easily gimp Ike if you know how to do it. Getting inside for jiggs is too hard. +1 ike


Feels winnable, disadvantaged only because of the CG, otherwise DDD doesn't really have too much else. -2 seems okay for now. If the DDD doesn't know what he's doing, he gets messed up, though.


Only problem I have with this is why everyone else isn't -3 around him. Ike doesn't have much more trouble vs MK than many others in the cast.

+1, +2 Ike. Mario, once you powershield fireballs, there's nothing preventing Ike from messing up Mario pretty bad both onstage and offstage

Bowser.. I don't know enough about him to say, but we have a CG on him and he gets gayed pretty hard by us..

Ganon doesn't do too bad against us in general, but once Ganon gets jabbed or bthrow dash attacked offstage, that swings it from a pretty nice -1 to -2

55:45 ish for these characters, but is that -1 or 0?? Snake feels harder so -1 snake, 0 diddy.
Snake, both can put loads of damage on each other. Ike doesn't even care about trading damage. Snake, however, has much more reliable killing options. Ike can't just lol-jab utilt on snake like he can the rest of the cast, and Ike doesn't like having to kill heavy characters. Snake gets jabbed to death though which helps. I can see equal damage on each, then snake just getting the kill first. Snake has to worry about the less reliable, harder read kills though. Uair is particularly effective.

Diddy- Not too difficult an MU. Bananas actually give Ike combo potential with jabs. Nair is really good in the MU. Diddy has to worry about aerials and jabs (surprising by now, huh?) even with bananas in hand. Diddy also has to worry about glide tossing too early and getting jabbed for it. Ike's DACIT I haven't fully explored against a competent opponent, but it does combo into other things if Diddy gets hit by it. Diddy can lots of momentum in the match.

ROB & PIT: Meh? Don't care enough. Went back and forth with the top mains of these characters. 0, -1, either one. Probably more 0 for ROB, more -1 for Pit.