Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[John12346]

You are doing something wrong then. TL is garbage

I didn't say I lose every time. The matches just tend to be long-winded because neither of us really want to get hit in that MU.

 

[MJG]

I didn't say I lose every time. The matches just tend to be long-winded because neither of us really want to get hit in that MU.

I never said you lose either. Fighting TL doesn't have to go to time. TL is free if you know how to abuse his flaws

 

[Poltergust]

I'd like to know what flaws he has. He's extremely annoying. >_>

 

[John12346]

Yeah, Ensis, it goes on for so long because TLink has aerial mobility to avoid a lot of the stuff Lucario throws out, and Lucario's shield is enough to dissaude a lot of TLink's tools.

TLink also gets hits in easier, but he can't kill until the later percents, resulting in some nasty Aura boosts. So we have Lucario worrying about getting Usmashed, and we have TLink worried about getting hit at all by any of Lucario's moves which will do like 15-20 damage per hit. It generally results in a lot of stalemating.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh and uair, that move is like the TL version of Link's dair, and it lasts foreveeeeer...

good thing it's so hard to connect with unless you read an airdodge.

 

[Steam]

TL is not a character you should be going to time against often >.> at least a luc...

Lucario can hit Tink from a lot of awkward angles... since he can't cover himself well...

sitting in shield up close can be good too since none of his throws are scary and he puts himself at risk by attempting to grab.

 

[camerino1]

This might sound wierd, but I have a hard time against Luigi as Ike. I want to know why it's in Ikes favor, I might just play Ike really wierdly.

 

[Steam]

This might sound wierd, but I have a hard time against Luigi as Ike. I want to know why it's in Ikes favor, I might just play Ike really wierdly.

ike sounds... impossible for luigi...

just space your moves well and hammer his shield... luigi should like never get in on ike :/

 

[WindMajor]

A lot of my matches against Lucario go to time.

Then again, that's because that's what I'm trying to do.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ike sounds... impossible for luigi...

just space your moves well and hammer his shield... luigi should like never get in on ike :/

Spoiler

That would be true if it wasn't for powershielding

How to play against Luigi as Ike for dummies:

1) If he's on ground abuse range.

2) If he's in the air, back up a bit, then abuse range.

3) If he manages to get inside of your range, quickly Jab.

4) Laugh at his easy to punish recovery

5) Laugh as your jab easily takes care of fireballs

6) ????

7) Profit while showing no sympathy. Having a group of friends nearby to fight for also helps.

 

[camerino1]

I think it's because I use a more air-oriented game. I need to use my ground attacks against him more. I 4-life every level 9 with Ike, except for Luigi, DDD and Falco. Which I found it wierd when I couldn't destroy Luigi when I'm supposed to have the advantage. (I think that's what's giving me the issue.)

 

[Chuee]

Spoiler

That would be true if it wasn't for powershielding

How to play against Luigi as Ike for dummies:

1) If he's on ground abuse range.

2) If he's in the air, back up a bit, then abuse range.

3) If he manages to get inside of your range, quickly Jab.

4) Laugh at his easy to punish recovery

5) Laugh as your jab easily takes care of fireballs

6) ????

7) Profit while showing no sympathy. Having a group of friends nearby to fight for also helps.

Thank you basedgod

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Thank you basedgod

Um...you mean bias? Forgive slowness, feeling off.

Spoiler

inb4somesortofjokerelatingtothat

*shrugs* Obviously, in game it can be rather different. If Luigi gets in he can mess up Ike badly. But isn't that the story of almost every single Luigi MU? Ike also has the advantages of the most range in the game, and lots of shield pushing with his moves. His Fsmash is even safe on shield against Luigi. >_>

 

[Chuee]

Um...you mean bias? Forgive slowness, feeling off.

Spoiler

inb4somesortofjokerelatingtothat

*shrugs* Obviously, in game it can be rather different. If Luigi gets in he can mess up Ike badly. But isn't that the story of almost every single Luigi MU? Ike also has the advantages of the most range in the game, and lots of shield pushing with his moves. His Fsmash is even safe on shield against Luigi. >_>

I was trolling you.
and no it's not the story of everyones Luigi MU
because not every character has the luxury of having a 5 foot long sword.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I meant the "he does a lot of damage once he gets past your character's defenses" part for his MUs. Defenses being swords, projectiles, speed (both attack and movement), ect.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think Pit beats Lucario +1 but I really don't see why Lucario is considered that good to begin with. I never had a good impression of that character and I don't see how he is supposed to be any better than mid tier.

because people are bad at killing in this game. and being bad at killing= lucario is an amazing character.

ike sounds... impossible for luigi...

just space your moves well and hammer his shield... luigi should like never get in on ike :/

I watched san obliterate boss by mainly only doing this. its seems really bad

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I watched san obliterate boss by mainly only doing this. its seems really bad

Yet, we only have it down as a 6-4 MU.

Silly Luigi boards thought they had the advantage waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when we last did the MU discussion. Like, probably over a year ago.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

reasoning on that was probably like, "if we lose hard to marth, there is no way we lose to ike"

obviously though, ike wins

 

[Shaya]

"We don't lose to meta knight that badly,
WE MUST HAVE AN ADVANTAGE ON MARTH".

 

[Nidtendofreak]

reasoning on that was probably like, "if we lose hard to marth, there is no way we lose to ike"

obviously though, ike wins

Nah, IIRC they thought we couldn't deal with their fireball, or something silly like that. >_>

 

[san.]

I like to look at MUs objectively even if I beat/lose to a specific person or not.

 

[Judo777]

I could be wrong but i think the main thing is that bar jab ikes moves are slow enough for luigi to not always have to shield. If he can PS or dodge a move or two he can get close. Then the rationale about ikes jab is that luigis jab is almost as good and a little faster so if he can get in jab range he might be able to win some jab wars with ike. And Luigi straight up ***** people he can get on top of (which is what jab allows somewhat.

Again I'm no expert on weeg or ike but thats just what it looks like to me

 

[CR4SH]

Ike spaces luigi out, makes jab range unsafe and pushes luigi out with everything he does. Sure luigi can do bad things to ike on PS, but he can do that to anyone, if that character lets him in far enough to make it count.

Ike beats luigi, cold.

 

[smashkng]

Aren't both jabs frame 3? And I think Ike's has more range as well, at least jab 2, so Luigi isn't really safe even at close range. Plus it does like 16% or more if you jab cancel and can set-up Utilt for kills at higher percents.

 

[Laem]

bad theorycraft and you should feel bad.
Ike beats luigi, sure.
but what about luigi rolling into ike the moment he initiates an aerial or ftilt?
how common is ps?
and lol, if any1 is unsafe in jabrange its IKE LOL. cuz hes playing ****ing LUIGI.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Pit beats Lucario +1 but I really don't see why Lucario is considered that good to begin with. I never had a good impression of that character and I don't see how he is supposed to be any better than mid tier.

I couldn't find a reason to justify this on the chart when we were presented with this.

 

[san.]

bad theorycraft and you should feel bad.
Ike beats luigi, sure.
but what about luigi rolling into ike the moment he initiates an aerial or ftilt?
how common is ps?
and lol, if any1 is unsafe in jabrange its IKE LOL. cuz hes playing ****ing LUIGI.

Sigh... .

 

[Laem]

Sigh... .

i think we can all get real about this
reactive forward rolls are good: breaks zoning, enters boxing mode.
MKs do this **** all the time with their roll thats like 10 frames(a guess) faster than your average roll
..and we're talking ike here. slow mother****er that commits hard to everything except jab

 

[san.]

I understand MK, but MK is fast enough where reactive forward rolls are effective, and he has one of the fastest forward rolls.

Luigi doesn't have this. You are going to expect the obvious air dodge, etc from Luigis. (haven't heard of Luigis rolling a lot as far as I know)

I am also trying to give Luigi the benefit of the doubt since I never had any problems against Luigi.

Can't deny that what you're saying is bad theorycraft, though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lucario and ZSS use reactive rolling all the time, it isn't that far fetched.

 

[san.]

Luigi can't roll into Ike's aerials because they have too much range. Luigi has to get lucky that the Ike was slightly off and get a powershield after the roll or something. Ike will never use ftilt up close. Rolling into Ike is a bad idea in general.

 

[da K.I.D.]

rolling into ike gets you *****. because his aerials hit you anyway even if you get behind him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well for Lucario it is because he has the best backroll and best/2nd best forward roll due to distance covered and invicibility.

That's why it works so well for him as a mix-up, but everyone expects him to Roll otherwise he wouldn't be named Rollcario, since most characters can still punish him rolling backwards and everyone can punish him rolling forwards

 

[Nidtendofreak]

rolling into ike gets you *****. because his aerials hit you anyway even if you get behind him.

This. And the Auto-canceling/extremely low landing lag, depending on the move. Rolling towards Nair will get you either a sword or a fist to the face, depending on the timing. You can't roll far enough through Fair. Bair is auto-canceling.

So ya, rolling towards Ike = bad theorycrafting. lol

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

just for referance weegee's jab is frame 2. the guy above said 3 but that 1 frame makes all the differance in boxing matches in brawl so i jus thought i'd point that out.

also, my buddy blaze is a weegee main and thinks in in ike's favor as well. he just switches to DK or MK for that MU based on who he feels like using.

 

[Laem]

all this of course as a counterargument to ikes 'walling', the 'bane' of luigi.
no sane person rolls into his nair, his nair doesnt wall.
his fair walls, but stationary or approaching fair can definitely be rolled through(unless in this case, luigis, invinc frames arent during roughly the first half of his roll, but ima assume like any normal character they are). Initiate the roll as late as possible during fairs startup (way easier than as early as possible).
Retreating fair is a stalemate, but loses ground for ike.
btw need i mention that you forward roll behind him? rolling in front of just gets you hit LOL and fair doesnt hit behind ike(unless you count ike's back lol). sh fair doesnt AC, not sure whats the deal with fh.
im iffy 'bout bair, it shouldn't wall but i wouldn't be suprised if it worked against luigi o_O. this of course due to mediocre range that suffices vs luigi and the sh AC. PS ***** bair, but i'll leave that out of the equation (for now..?).

 

[smashkng]

Ike's aerials (except Nair) have quite much landing lag but they have so good range that it covers their landing lag really well. I think about Fair is that it's usually retreated and so that if you try to roll behind Ike when he does it, he follows your attempt to roll behind Ike and then Luigi still get hit by the Fair. Being able to punish Ike's retreating Bair is rare even for a lot other characters, it has very good range and a ton of shield pushback. Plus with Ike's average air speed and Luigi's horrible mobility, I don't think he can even dream about punishing an autocanceled one even if he powershields unless that Ike's spacing is a joke.

 

[san.]

@Laem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9kpTvm6CYA

 

[Chuee]

@Laem:
Right answer

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Fair does hit behind Ike "kinda sorta not really" but it can if you end up in just the wrong spot after the roll. I also doubt Luigi's roll goes far enough to get through a standing Fair safely: most characters can't. SH doesn't AC, but it has a lot of IASA frames.

His Nair does wall against characters with very little range/movement speed, and can obviously hit well behind him (which is why you never roll towards Ike, particularly if you have crappy range). Bair can also wall, and is arguably unlikely to be PS'd due to be 8 frames, but that's another level of theory craft.