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I wish Lucario's fair's hitbox would come out on frame 5...
It's actually frame 7, you'll notice that the variables on frame 5, while being mentioned, do not correlate to it being active on that frame, just that being a window you can auto cancel the aerial before it comes out if you land before it happens.
it's got ridiculously low endlag though, it's the reason why it makes for such a good Momentum canceling aerial. And it's hitbox active for soooo long considering how poke-ish it is.
alright, i don't feel like dropping the ball just yet. you guys said that he has a lot of questionable MUs. then i listed the ones that our board feels are wrong, and then none of you pointed out the ones you had discrepencies (<is that how that is spelled?) with. here is what i said earlier
as far as we can tell like the only incorrect MUs are ICs could be 0 but -1 is acceptable, fox should be 0 not +1 us, TL should be -1, with the new ruleset ness should be +2 us, and snake could be a 0 but not really too worried on that one as koolaid's performance will move that MU itself. plus he has chaingrabs and fthrow>stutter step fsmash on over half the cast for an early 30%+ lead. and those he can chaingrab he has a potential 0-death on so really im not seeing what's wrong with most of his MUs at all.
is there honestly something else wrong with his MUs in yall's opinion?
with the exception of spacies projectiles are rendered practically useless against him because wing dashing stops any item and non lazer projectile except for lucario's and samus's aura/shot after a certain amount of charge. then he can just use either reflector making their projectile game much more limited. (reflectors are why i didn't mention ROB above. ya he has a lazer but that thing is sooo slow)
i could go on all day about how an advanced pit will play and use ATs and such, but that's time consuming and i just wanna know who thinks what MUs are wrong and why because i keep reading "he has questionable MUs" but im not seeing any listed at all except by me and the lucarios (and i rather enjoyed that discussion, it's a fun MU).
I saw that Ike had a -1 against the IC, I wondering why. If you use N-air they can never hit, his attack range stops them from getting close enough to chain grab most of the time. The only attack choice that's safe is their iceburgs, which is easily blocked by a jab.
He has such an easy time killing off Nana, once they seperate she is gone. If anything I think it should be even or +1, I find that that's one of his easiest match-ups.
Hopefully I'm not shouting at deaf ears here... don't know how many people have tried this one yet.
I saw that Ike had a -1 against the IC, I wondering why. If you use N-air they can never hit, his attack range stops them from getting close enough to chain grab most of the time. The only attack choice that's safe is their iceburgs, which is easily blocked by a jab.
He has such an easy time killing off Nana, once they seperate she is gone. If anything I think it should be even or +1, I find that that's one of his easiest match-ups.
Hopefully I'm not shouting at deaf ears here... don't know how many people have tried this one yet.
I saw that Ike had a -1 against the IC, I wondering why. If you use N-air they can never hit, his attack range stops them from getting close enough to chain grab most of the time. The only attack choice that's safe is their iceburgs, which is easily blocked by a jab.
He has such an easy time killing off Nana, once they seperate she is gone. If anything I think it should be even or +1, I find that that's one of his easiest match-ups.
Hopefully I'm not shouting at deaf ears here... don't know how many people have tried this one yet.
ignore his trolling. hes never seen an ike against an IC player at a high level so he clearly wouldnt know how that match pans out.
Ive watched san against cura more times than i can count. and the matchup seem pretty even to me.
Ike severely out ranges them and his aerial are quite safe against them.
Theres also the fact that if Ike jabs them he gets a grab and a lot of the time a grab on popo = back throw to f smash nana. His fair can out range blizzard and he does gross things to them offstage. However its still even because Ike doesnt have too much of a way to defend himself if he gets put in the air. ICs can harass Ike a lot if hes offstage. and if they get a lucky powershield (which happens often enough to be brought up) they can still get the grab which is obviously a loss of stock.
Its usually a very fast matchup. Both characters die to each other far too easily
Ike's jab screws over the ICs, his Fair does actually outrange blizzard at just the right angle, and technically Counter can be used to punish blizzard. He can safely Bthrow Nana away from Popo by pummeling first, and then using the Bthrow true combo. And of course, he massively outranges them/out powers them.
Even though Ike can get around blizzard, it's really hard to do and ICs can abuse that fact. One mess up on Ike's part = loss stock, while the ICs don't quite lose Nana that quickly. On the other hand, if the ICs mess up their CG, that is a serious blow, arguably more so than in a lot of other MUs.
It's a 50-50 or 55-45 MU in Ike's favor at the top level. Low level ICs beat low level Ike. Either way, it's going to be over quickly, and the "-1" on the current MU chart is an obvious error.
I hope everyone realizes this Chart isn't based on say ESAM playing a random MK and thus making it a +1 for Pikachu. Remember they probably have it factored to where both players have the Same amount of skill.
If this Chart was similar to the Tierlist being based mostly on tournament results, but with Match ups only being accounted for High level of play, while Unknown players that main the characters don't count. Than alot of Matchups would look pretty off if we had a Match with Say M2K vs DEHF it'd probably be a -1 for DEHF instead of an Even MU if it was just two regular players.
ICs isn't really too difficult for Ike. I tried both aggro and defensive/camping, and both can be decent strategies.
Aggro can be hit or miss if you mess up your punish, so camping is easier. Camping is more solid in general. ICs have to take a risk to get in, too, and if they mess up that can also result in a potential stock.
Cura did well in a few sets we had, making me CP him off of ICs, but usually it's not fun watching what the ICs have to go through in the general matches that we play. It's either a close match or ICs get messed up. Most of it is due to human error. I believe it's at least even if the ICs is perfect with grabs. The ICs missing a grab once can be detrimental.
Cura is also the ICs that does the best against me from all the ICs I've played.
I wish Lucario's fair's hitbox would come out on frame 5...
It's actually frame 7, you'll notice that the variables on frame 5, while being mentioned, do not correlate to it being active on that frame, just that being a window you can auto cancel the aerial before it comes out if you land before it happens.
it's got ridiculously low endlag though, it's the reason why it makes for such a good Momentum canceling aerial. And it's hitbox active for soooo long considering how poke-ish it is.
ignore his trolling. hes never seen an ike against an IC player at a high level so he clearly wouldnt know how that match pans out.
Ive watched san against cura more times than i can count. and the matchup seem pretty even to me.
Ike severely out ranges them and his aerial are quite safe against them.
Theres also the fact that if Ike jabs them he gets a grab and a lot of the time a grab on popo = back throw to f smash nana. His fair can out range blizzard and he does gross things to them offstage. However its still even because Ike doesnt have too much of a way to defend himself if he gets put in the air. ICs can harass Ike a lot if hes offstage. and if they get a lucky powershield (which happens often enough to be brought up) they can still get the grab which is obviously a loss of stock.
Its usually a very fast matchup. Both characters die to each other far too easily
there's a difference between playing both players all the time and watching them matchup countless times, and not playing the game at all and watching one video
That said, who even plays Pit these days? That's not trying to be insulting--I just don't know. I don't keep up with tournament results or big names, really. Is Kool-Aid still doing things? I heard Krystedez planned on using him more.
I just placed 3rd using 65-70 percent Pit at Brawl in the Hall 4 this past weekend, subsequently earning back enough to make ends meet after a 4 hour drive to a KY tournament filled with new people I've never played before (lots of talent for sure). 43 dollars.
These matchups are making me wary:
Metaknight I was so right about, it's -2, not undefeatable but damn hard. No way in the blue blazes of hell will I change that feeling unless someone not named ally comes up and 3-stocks me. (M2K even was fun to play compared to that basterd)
I have a feeling Luc has a +1 on Pit when he's behind. But that's still a disadvantage. Good luck coming back on a camping-his-***-off-pit after he takes your stock.
I played against my roomie's luc for quite a while, but that's it. I feel like it's not played enough to warrant a +1 or -1 in either side quite yet. It was understandable to me to go 0.
Koolaid has returned to playing Pit, and Krystedez is putting alot of practice in.
Along with that, me and a few other players are attending tourneys. We're a pretty small group, but we are trying
Like which ratio's exactly?
Pit versus Lucario is a lot of theorycrafting right now since there isn't much experience on either side. With that being considered, I think Pit does have the advantage. Pit's aerials like b-air are easier than average to land on lucario due to his floatiness, and arrows are great at harassing him in the air and taking advantage of the lag right before his up-B. Pit also has 2 reflectors for AS. Essentially Pit can outcamp Lucario, and pressure him hard offstage. What edge does Lucario have on Pit?
You're thinkin' of Marth, whom we're dually more worried about yet only have a -1 (arguable) against. And I know Luc has a great fair, but it doesn't cover him nearly as well as Marth, and his ground/air speed ratio and frame-traps are much better than anything Luc can offer other than guarding his front somewhat (which can still lead to a punish from us if we space ourselves just right too)
bair is going to be pretty hard to land on lucario... he can outspace it without too much difficulty and do things like Dair stalling or wavebouncing to make pit miss.
Pit can't do a whole lot to lucario offstage as long as lucario deals with the arrows properly. He can just fair through them/DJ airdodge and anything else he'd hit lucario with would send him quite high up. allowing him to recover. I honestly think Lucario does just as much to pit offstage if not more.
More? Lolrite. Luc is at a distinct disadvantage off stage, to most characters, especially Pit. And don't even get me started on arrow looping/charged mind games, we can hit Lucario's head pretty easy or the back of him with how weird his recovery is going to be. Plus, put in air-dodging in the mix as a way to bait him into an easy b-air. Which is why I believe Pit has an easier time killing Luc more than most characters.
the biggest edge lucario has is Pit not killing him. just because bair can kill early doesn't mean he'll land it. Pikachu, D3, Falco, TL etc. all have moves that kill pretty early, but they always have to deal god mode lucario because they just can't land them on him (with the exception of D3 and his guranteed upsmash out of Dthrow that he now has >.>) I honestly don't know how pit's going to land a bair on lucario not being dumb... pit's air mobility/speed is pretty bad making his ability to punish things with it quite limited.
In brawl, a smart player won't get hit. True story.
Joking aside, bair isn't nearly as hard to hit as you'd think. You just have to bait and punish, give enough room and use arrows, or chase off-stage, which isn't hard to knock Luc far enough to do all of these things.
I have a few problems with it now that I've been putting more practice into Pit. Still, gunna hold my peace until Summer comes and I take SiiS5 with 70 percent Super Saiyan Pit
The value of off-stage arrows is pressure, and you are right in the sense that Lucario can f-air a ton to help deal with them. However when Lucario has to up-b, arrows can capitalize on the start-up lag. Since the arrows can be curved, successive hits can keep him in that suspended state as he slowly falls to a position where he can't recover. In air combat, Pit and Lucario go even in terms of range and strength, however Pit has more jumps and can pressure to a greater degree. Pit's u-air does go through Lucario's d-air if it is spaced to the side IIRC
Furthermore, Pit has other options than b-air in this matchup. B-Air isn't the main kill move for Pit, it is instead the move that can be used to punish reads or score lucky kills with. Anyways I'd honestly say Lucario and Pit are probably equal in killing.
This matchup is very much based on the first kill. If Pit gets it in, then he pretty much has it made in the shade. If lucario gets the first kill, it gets a bit harder.
I hate it when everyone says all lucario matchups are dependent on the first kill... It really buries luario in cases in which someone has a reliable early kill move kill power like snake. Lucario is boned if he dies first against snake because not only will it take luc forever to take snake's first stock. even if pit takes the first stock and lucario takes 75% more before killing pit, Lucario can still pretty easily even that... likewise pit can come back just as easily on a lucario with the lead...
Which is why I think Pit v Luc is even, not +1/-1 either way. They both have their qualms and issues, their advs and disadvs, but all come down to who the smarter player is, period. If both players were even at the highest level, then it would come down to the person who got the first stock. That's in all matchups I think, not just Luc. Maybe his are more impactful when you take Snake for example though.
I hate it when everyone says how hard it is for Pit to land a kill move and use that as an excuse to say that won't ever kill. How hard it is =/= how it effects the matchup to me.
That said, if anyone wants to discuss the matchup chart at the Pit forums, please do, in case you get lost in this convo and want to continue it when it dies here. I'm open ears!
as good a move as bair could be... pit does not have an easier time than most characters... He's definitely no sheik but there are at least 15+ characters I can think of off the top of my head that do it better... Regardless killpower IS going to be an issue for pit and lucario dying at 120 vs. 180 is what makes or breaks the matchup.
Floatiness should rarely be a factor when dealing with pit's bair especially with the tools lucario has in addition to having better air speed... unless I'm not quite understanding you... but yeah anything happens on a read. my point was that a move like pit's bair requires a situational/harder read while many other characters can just do it OOS on something or punish things on reaction, AKA the read is "easier" to make/takes less commitment so it will generally be made more often.
I also can't see pit camping lucario well... Pit doesn't have the mobility to keep away from him and rack tons of damage with arrows... especially with lucario's great initial dash for Dash>Psing though things... he can probably air camp for short periods of time but air camping lucario generally does not work well unless your name is wario. I still think the issue for luc is pit's inside game (and the great damage output he gets from it >.>)
I'm not saying that Pit has an easier time killing Lucario than other characters in the game. I said he has an easier time killing Lucario with his bair then Pit himself has killing other characters with his bair. (like killing Marth with bair is a huge task on it's own, and then you've got Meta Knight, Kirby/Pikachu, and even some others)
Floatiness/lackluster frames on airdodge/less safe aerial moves all contribute to cario's liability to a well-placed bair from any of Pit's traps, either with arrows, WoI, looped arrows, or baits.
Pit's wavebounce is extremely useful against Lucario, more so than Lucario's wavebounce. He also has WoI to get away with decent mobility, especially if you WoI refresh before leaving the ground.
Pit's damage output is okay, but most of his attacks send opponents too far for follow ups other than arrows. Pit's medium-long range game and set ups/kill potential versus any other match up for him (Pit) is great.
Lucarios is better because it lingers, marth has to be very precise to hit the arrow while lucario has a massive margin for error, hes FAR more likely to cancel the arrow.
and IDK but Lucario has extremely safe aerials as a whole... especially when he's not hitting shields with them due to his lingerboxes and generally low cooldown.
His airdodge isn't amazing but he still has the ability to stall with a disjointed, powerful 4 frame move and has an effective wavebounce (I don't think pit's is more useful... but w/e) and if he can even double team if he knows he's going to get hit by something, and it stalls him as well on whiff.
Still think pit's going to be mainly beating lucario by outspeeding him up close lol
We're talking about the same thing, right? B-reversed arrow (wavebouncing from the ground) is immensely superior to Lucario's aura sphere at a range.
As for Luc's fair vs Marth's fair, the point is, Luc can protect himself faster, easier, longer. But that's it.
Marth can protect his whole body, hit Pit if close enough, has enough aerial mobility and ground speed along with overall better frame traps leading from whiffed fairs.
In the end, Pit's much more scared of Marth f-air, because it's not just an overall more efficient but not as long-lasting defensive mechanism; it's a major weapon of destruction. I'd rather face Luc than Marth anyday.
I won't disagree that Pit is good up close, but just for reference, Pit's moves launch akwardly for him to follow up with anything except the occasional infinite jab to forward B or u-air to anything that fits the situation.
Lucario's fair doesn't scare pit at all... I'm just referring to how it's effective in dealing with arrows, especially due to its low cooldown. Marth's fair is much better : P
and no we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm refering to air wavebouncing with lucario causing him to change direction/momentum/both, can be usesful for a lot of things, namely escaping juggles. lucario wavebouncing on the ground is okay too... but only because of lucario's good options out of AS charge, can be useful for baiting reflectors up close but otherwise is just a good way to cancel a dash while running away. It's MUCH more useful in the air.
Lucario's wavebounce is better IMO solely because of how well he cancels his AS charge into other things (basically what trela flash is)
I've not been able to wavebounce with lucario efficiently before in the air then T_T That move looks so cool when you do right, I didn't even know that's what they called it in the air as well.
Least we're on the same page. I keep thinking of using Lucario, but I'm turned off by his mobility. I already have Pit anyways D:
I didn't know a wavebounce could refer to the ground lol. I always just called it turnaround.
It's actually pretty useful because you can either change the direction you face (B-reversal), shift your momentum the other way (B-Roversal), or do both (wavebounce). very useful especially when considering lucario has no landing lag when landing in AS charge so he can instantly shield cancel it and jump OOS or shield drop to something else. Or just sit there in charge if he wants... once he's in charge the AS will come out frame 5 if he decides to fire.
but yeah it just takes practice, B-reveral is easy and wavebouncing is easy before too long... B-roverasl is harder because you essentially B-reverse, then Wavebounce. so it's pretty easy to lose a lot of your mometum while you're imputting it, and often times you'll get sideB before you get the hang of it :/
and yeah mobility is always an issue for lucario, though it only rears its ugly head in a few matchups... like wario >.>
I think Pit beats Lucario +1 but I really don't see why Lucario is considered that good to begin with. I never had a good impression of that character and I don't see how he is supposed to be any better than mid tier.
I think Pit beats Lucario +1 but I really don't see why Lucario is considered that good to begin with. I never had a good impression of that character and I don't see how he is supposed to be any better than mid tier.
krystedez is right on pit's ground game and the akward angles it usually produces. but dez i think you forgot about dthrow stuff when talking about up close game. that move is so easy to set up baits and such with. a lot of pit's up close fear game comes from using dthrow properly. so many safe set ups..... i love it
that and jab cancel stuff. or just doing all of jab. plus it's 2 ending options. pit's jab... what else can you say. it is an option maker.... i love it
I think Pit beats Lucario +1 but I really don't see why Lucario is considered that good to begin with. I never had a good impression of that character and I don't see how he is supposed to be any better than mid tier.
I never thought he was low in japan, thought he always high XD
EDIT: Oh durr, nvm thought you were talkin about Pit, this post is all about Pit now XD
He makes it through tournaments as a solo main decently, but without a secondary to take down the bigger threats like MK, it's tough. That's why I picked him up because my wario covers everything he sucks at, and my pit covers the important guys and the guys that have some BS on Wario (Dedede being an important one, and Ganon/Yoshi/Peach/Marth having stupid BS on Wario)... Though I'd go Wario against Marth/Peach just fine still.
Trela is better than Jerm though... just speaking results wise.
and it's evenish because Lucario is much worse inside than people think... even when lucario gets in Tink can still compete rather well. Projectiles aren't a huge deal for lucario to just Dash PS through.
ICs isn't really too difficult for Ike. I tried both aggro and defensive/camping, and both can be decent strategies.
Aggro can be hit or miss if you mess up your punish, so camping is easier. Camping is more solid in general. ICs have to take a risk to get in, too, and if they mess up that can also result in a potential stock.
Cura did well in a few sets we had, making me CP him off of ICs, but usually it's not fun watching what the ICs have to go through in the general matches that we play. It's either a close match or ICs get messed up. Most of it is due to human error. I believe it's at least even if the ICs is perfect with grabs. The ICs missing a grab once can be detrimental.
Cura is also the ICs that does the best against me from all the ICs I've played.
Out of curiosity, what high level ICs have you played? I also think the MU is even, but I don't think many top ICs get to play with top Ikes, so it's really hard to practically substantiate a number.
Out of curiosity, what high level ICs have you played? I also think the MU is even, but I don't think many top ICs get to play with top Ikes, so it's really hard to practically substantiate a number.
