Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah thats the theoretical point but I often see in practice that Wario has good options vs. MK, I see Semifers Wario vs. Staco a lot or Glutonny vs. Kaos earlier and Wario is really good in finding holes and abuse them.
In an optimal play MK never loses (it's a good thing that humans make mistakes and never play optiomally)
and I saw your vids vs. M2k and they weren't that bad! D:

I can't comment on the matches you described with Semifer and Gluttony, as I haven't seen them, myself, but, I believe I managed well enough against Mew2King because I'm simply a smarter player than Mew2King. (Feel free to laugh at the idea all you want, I guess.)

I don't think that Metaknight is Wario's worst matchup since Metaknight doesn't have that as many good grab release choices as some other characters. The worst matchups are either Pikachu vs Wario on battlefield, Dedede vs Wario on Yoshi's story, or Yoshi. The metaknight matchup is probably about the same as the Falcon matchup (both soft counters on Wario).

Most high-level Wario players make sure not to get grabbed in bad positions. It's still definitely a part of those matchups, but not being able to do ANYTHING when you're in a neutral position is a lot worse than taking massive damage when you mess up.

I get the feeling that you either underestimate Wario's ability to stay away from things, or that you think that situational tactics really make that much of a difference.

 

[Steam]

Nooooo using Zelda against lucario is suicide. Lucario out ranges AND outspeeds Zelda almost completely. I tried using Zelda for this MU a long time ago and i would literally just take 85% minimum trying to hit lucario with anything.

Maybe I just don't understand the MU but my Zelda (which is a pretty good zelda) always gets trashed by lucarios.

@Flayl like Mars said marth doesn't have 5 jumps and also marths fair is actually punishable by DA on block if its not like perfectly retreated (which means like jump straight back and swing).

well the zelda boards claimed the matchup was only +1 lucario...

and Zelda has the same ratio as sheik... :/

 

[Sinister Slush]

.........................
I can't tell if he's serious

I tend to ignore posts that confuse the hell out of me.
What concerns me the most is a few Match-Ups for Yoshi.
Shiek, Ness, Peach, and Luigi.

Will post my opinions on this in a bit.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Aside from like... Esam, I like how all of the really good players for each character always say 'MK is my hardest matchup' or 'MK ***** my character' and its always the people who either dont play either character, or get all their info from watching other people play the matchup to say, 'so-and-so actually does really good vs mk!'

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Aside from like... Esam, I like how all of the really good players for each character always say 'MK is my hardest matchup' or 'MK ***** my character' and its always the people who either dont play either character, or get all their info from watching other people play the matchup to say, 'so-and-so actually does really good vs mk!'

Not true.

And I can't take Reflex' claim serious tbh. His pro-ban bias is more than obvious and he even goes as far as to ignore Glutonny vs Kaos matches under the pretext of not having seen them despite a good amount of videos of them being on youtube. I think statistically Warios have been beating MK players way too often to make it his worst match-up. When did a Wario beat a competent DDD last time?

I think it's pretty silly how he uses himself vs M2K - which is a pretty drastic example to begin with - as his only basis while choosing not to look at the other side of the argument =/

Edit: Not to say that Gluto vs Kaos is anywhere near evidence or all there is to illustrate the match-up ... but it definitely backs up claims that Wario does better than you make it look.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't think that Metaknight is Wario's worst matchup since Metaknight doesn't have that as many good grab release choices as some other characters. The worst matchups are either Pikachu vs Wario on battlefield, Dedede vs Wario on Yoshi's story, or Yoshi. The metaknight matchup is probably about the same as the Falcon matchup (both soft counters on Wario).

You think Falcon BEATS Wario? This man knows his stuff .

Aside from like... Esam, I like how all of the really good players for each character always say 'MK is my hardest matchup' or 'MK ***** my character' and its always the people who either dont play either character, or get all their info from watching other people play the matchup to say, 'so-and-so actually does really good vs mk!'

Well, not for certain characters. It's either Mk, Lucario, Pikachu, Ics, or D3 for hardest matchups for characters. Like Polt, Esam, and Espy all say Lucario is their character's hardest matchup. Kain and any Wolf will argue D3 is their hardest matchup in actual play while it's Wario in theory play (Because not every Wario can consistently Cg). Dehf and Tkd say Pikachu is their hardest matchup. Etc...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You think Falcon BEATS Wario? This man knows his stuff .

I would say that Falcon goes even with Wario at worst, but probably does a little better than that. It's not a very strange idea.

Not true.

And I can't take Reflex' claim serious tbh. His pro-ban bias is more than obvious and he even goes as far as to ignore Glutonny vs Kaos matches under the pretext of not having seen them despite a good amount of videos of them being on youtube. I think statistically Warios have been beating MK players way too often to make it his worst match-up. When did a Wario beat a competent DDD last time?

I think it's pretty silly how he uses himself vs M2K - which is a pretty drastic example to begin with - as his only basis while choosing not to look at the other side of the argument =/

Edit: Not to say that Gluto vs Kaos is anywhere near evidence or all there is to illustrate the match-up ... but it definitely backs up claims that Wario does better than you make it look.

I haven't claimed to ignore anything; all I said was, "In my experience, the matchup is really stupid." I just generally don't watch match videos unless they're put in front of my face, and that's generally when my older brother demands that I watch something he finds interesting. I'm subscribed to innocentroads' YouTube channel, but that's about it. I don't see why this has to be "pro-ban bias."

I use myself against M2K because it's an example of high-level players that I am intimately familiar with. Why would I use anything less than that? If you think I'm not on Mew2King's level, then say that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You think Falcon BEATS Wario? This man knows his stuff .


Well, not for certain characters. It's either Mk, Lucario, Pikachu, Ics, or D3 for hardest matchups for characters. Like Polt, Esam, and Espy all say Lucario is their character's hardest matchup. Kain and any Wolf will argue D3 is their hardest matchup in actual play while it's Wario in theory play (Because not every Wario can consistently Cg). Dehf and Tkd say Pikachu is their hardest matchup. Etc...

I know espy knows that sonic gets the meta****
im pretty sure polt says that yoshi v mk is bad
last i checked, you were the only that doesnt think the mk matchup is dumb for wolf.
tkd is kinda crazy in my opinion and talks about fox like hes straight up unbeatable top tier material.
dehf im pretty sure is trying to switch to ICs because of mk.

gnes and reflex just flat out laugh at people who say their characters do good vs mk.
I dont think nick riddle likes the matchup very much.
coney says mk that knows that matchup is close to unbeatable
ally plays mk now because he hates mk vs snake.
they dont all say that mk is their hardest matchup, but they all think their specific characters matchup with mk is really bad.
san knows that mk is his worst matchup.

yet, every time one of these players can barely manage to super hard read their way in to a win vs a good mk, you have 15 randoms coming out the woodwork, like '_____ IS EVEN WITH MK111!!!' and the people they use as evidence just sit back and laugh at the very concept

 

[Max Ketchum]

Not true.

And I can't take Reflex' claim serious tbh. His pro-ban bias is more than obvious and he even goes as far as to ignore Glutonny vs Kaos matches under the pretext of not having seen them despite a good amount of videos of them being on youtube. I think statistically Warios have been beating MK players way too often to make it his worst match-up. When did a Wario beat a competent DDD last time?

In Reflex's defense, he probably just hasn't actually seen the videos. <_< Malcolm beat Coney at MLG DC, I believe.

I think it's pretty silly how he uses himself vs M2K - which is a pretty drastic example to begin with - as his only basis while choosing not to look at the other side of the argument =/

Edit: Not to say that Gluto vs Kaos is anywhere near evidence or all there is to illustrate the match-up ... but it definitely backs up claims that Wario does better than you make it look.

I'd also venture to say that him vs. Mew2King happening in July 2008 is a pretty good explanation of why the matches were as close as they were, considering the metagame really hadn't evolved to the point where Meta Knight becomes capable of shutting Wario out.

I know espy knows that sonic gets the meta****
im pretty sure polt says that yoshi v mk is bad
last i checked, you were the only that doesnt think the mk matchup is dumb for wolf.
tkd is kinda crazy in my opinion and talks about fox like hes straight up unbeatable top tier material.
dehf im pretty sure is trying to switch to ICs because of mk.
I dont think nick riddle likes the matchup very much.

Polt thinks Lucario is much wore than MK, and Larry has asserted many times that Pikachu is Falco's worst matchup, followed by ICs. NickRiddle fought pretty hard with me to argue that MK/ZSS is +1 instead of the +2 that I believe it is.

 

[Scatz]

Every Yoshi main that's played a smart MK knows it's bad (easily a -2). MK beats a lot of these "potential" characters in high levels of play.

@Doom: Lucario is by far our worst matchup, but MK isn't far off from being as bad.

 

[Yikarur]

and LUcario is obviously Yoshis worst

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, Mew2King is currently bumming off of people living in Atlanta, so we've been meeting up at tournaments recently. I played him this weekend, actually.

 

[demonictoonlink]

@Doom: Lucario is by far our worst matchup, but MK isn't far off from being as bad.

So he isn't by far your worst matchup

 

[Max Ketchum]

As an aside, Mew2King is currently bumming off of people living in Atlanta, so we've been meeting up at tournaments recently. I played him this weekend, actually.

Ah, I was unaware. Thought he was referencing FAST1, which got me mad. LOL

 

[Scatz]

So he isn't by far your worst matchup

I was agreeing with what Kid was saying about the matchup being bad.

 

[Max Ketchum]

He was pointing out your contradictory wording.

 

[Seagull Joe]

last i checked, you were the only that doesnt think the mk matchup is dumb for wolf.

yet, every time one of these players can barely manage to super hard read their way in to a win vs a good mk, you have 15 randoms coming out the woodwork, like '_____ IS EVEN WITH MK111!!!' and the people they use as evidence just sit back and laugh at the very concept

Wolf vs Mk isn't even, but it isn't our worst matchup. It's -1 at worst. Wolf is very good vs Mk because of shine, safe aerials, and a projectile that can force approaches. He's also very heavy so killing is a problem for Mk unless he gets a good read. I don't think Wolf vs Mk is one of our hardest matchups at high levels. I'm good vs Mk and I know this, but I'm not the only Wolf who is good vs Mk.

Mk can't abuse stage choices as badly vs Wolf like other characters. All neutrals, delfino, picto, japes, halberd, and castle siege all aren't bad at all. Wolf's Dair prevents sharking, which is awesome. Frigate is ok and the only horrid stages are rainbow cruise and brinstar.

 

[Scatz]

Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize he was referring to the worst matchups when from the person he quoted.

10failsforjumpinginwithoutknowingthediscussionathand

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf vs Mk isn't even, but it isn't our worst matchup. It's -1 at worst. Wolf is very good vs Mk because of shine, safe aerials, and a projectile that can force approaches. He's also very heavy so killing is a problem for Mk unless he gets a good read. I don't think Wolf vs Mk is one of our hardest matchups at high levels. I'm good vs Mk and I know this, but I'm not the only Wolf who is good vs Mk.

Mk can't abuse stage choices as badly vs Wolf like other characters. All neutrals, delfino, picto, japes, halberd, and castle siege all aren't bad at all. Wolf's Dair prevents sharking, which is awesome. Frigate is ok and the only horrid stages are rainbow cruise and brinstar.

This. Wolf is not bad vs. MK. Seagull is definitely NOT the only one who believes this, either. -1 is correct for that MU.

Don't know who would be saying it's even, though. :/

 

[Max Ketchum]

@Doom: Lucario is by far our worst matchup, but MK isn't far off from being as bad.

This is what he was referring to. By FAR the worst, but MK isn't FAR off?

 

[Scatz]

What I meant to say was that Lucario is our worst matchup. Most Yoshi's say metaknight isn't as bad since there's characters that rival his annoyance (Wolf and ToonLink), but he's relatively close to being as bad as Lucario. Better?

 

[Steam]

the only horrid stages are rainbow cruise and brinstar.

too bad they're both always legal and you only get one ban : D

 

[da K.I.D.]

'MK is my hardest matchup' or 'MK ***** my character'

they dont all say that mk is their hardest matchup, but they all think their specific characters matchup with mk is really bad.

quoted to clarify what I was saying.

mk isnt every characters worst matchup, everyone knows that, but a lot of the time even the people who beat really good mks consistently say that they shouldnt be winning.

 

[BSP]

Wolf's Dair prevents sharking, which is awesome.

It hits under thin platforms? Didn't know that.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It hits under thin platforms? Didn't know that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t8hqQo9nDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1czVDEQp84

 

[BSP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t8hqQo9nDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1czVDEQp84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8A4CoKiAsc

and thanks

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I could see some characters having a -1 with MK, some of the characters claiming it are being a tad overzealous, imo.

 

[Judo777]

@Steam I saw that before i posted and again idk maybe im just bad at the MU but I always get absolutely ***** when i switch on a lucario.

Haha i guess you might say its NOT safe to SWITCH IN on a lucario. He might use pursuit or something lol

 

[Tagxy]

Aside from like... Esam, I like how all of the really good players for each character always say 'MK is my hardest matchup' or 'MK ***** my character' and its always the people who either dont play either character, or get all their info from watching other people play the matchup to say, 'so-and-so actually does really good vs mk!'

That's like, the exact opposite of true. Thats only the case for a few pro-ban semi-pro/pro players, which is also not too common.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lucario used baton pass.

GO< METAKNIGHT!

Metaknight used GENERAL MOVESET!

Your opponents roster all fainted, went into a coma, died, and went to hell.

YOU WIN!!! (insert red and blue version match victory music here).

You got $666 yen

 

[Max Ketchum]

If Lucario could baton pass his aura to MK, that'd be some lulzy ****.

 

[John12346]

Yeah, but real talk

MK is not everyone's hardest MU

But I can't think of one character, sans MK of course, who can call their MU against MK "easy."

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's like, the exact opposite of true. Thats only the case for a few pro-ban semi-pro/pro players, which is also not too common.

Uh, what?

I guess that's because the other ones are using Meta Knight themselves. I don't know what players you're talking about, otherwise.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

everyone knows that metaknight is a hard match up for everyone. just because he is not as hard as some other characters (like MK vs falco is not as bad as Pika vs Falco), does not mean that metaknight is not always a challenging match up.

if that makes sense to any1. i don't really know how to word it better sorry

 

[Tagxy]

Uh, what?

I guess that's because the other ones are using Meta Knight themselves. I don't know what players you're talking about, otherwise.

Meant to put more of an emphasis on pros, but the only people I can think of that say any such things are diddy mains.

 

[Spelt]

wolf and fox are the only characters below b tier who can call the matchup vs mk -1, which is why they should both be moved up imo.

 

[Z'zgashi]

fox has nowhere to go but down ATM though cuz they already effed up by putting him that far up.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah ... because he totally doesn't have the results or matchups to earn a higher place.
having a not horrid mu with mk should automatically put someone into high tier in this mk dominated world.

 

[Z'zgashi]

For a second there I thought you were talking about sonic

 

[Spelt]

Well i definitely wasn't talking about yoshi