Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Kinzer]

Wait, so it a 0 SDI multiplier or Hitlag with a high multiplier? Why are we even naming certain multipliers?

As a person: It makes more sense to say 0 SDI multiplier. You can't work with zero because there's nothing to work with at all.

As a researcher: I've talked to a couple of people about this; especially people who are more well-versed in this field than I am. It's a multiplier of 0.

Really, go ahead and try to SDI Marth's tipper FSmash in-game.

 

[DMG]

"Fox and Wolf can adequately deal with MK's Tornado in all situations but they aren't the only characters to do so. I think Marth and Falco [plus Diddy Kong, if MK doesn't steal his banana] are also among these characters and I can see all 4 of them [Diddy is probably not among them] being "officially" even with MK in the future metagame [ignoring the fact that they are probably all even or better based on tournament statistics already]."

The ****? Wolf Fox Falco Marth etc being even or better against MK? Yo IMAGINE

 

[phi1ny3]

As a person: It makes more sense to say 0 SDI multiplier. You can't work with zero because there's nothing to work with at all.

As a researcher: I've talked to a couple of people about this; especially people who are more well-versed in this field than I am. It's a multiplier of 0.

Really, go ahead and try to SDI Marth's tipper FSmash in-game.

I play as and against Marth often enough to say that this is true, you cannot SDI tippers, although you can DI them.

 

[dean.]

I used to think (well, was told) that you couldn't SDI any of Marth's tippers but then I was told that only his usmash (leg hitbox) and fsmash tipper hitbox can't be SDIed. This true? Kinda means MK can survive grab release dair if he's close enough to the stage.

 

[Spelt]

The ****? Wolf Fox Falco Marth etc being even or better against MK? Yo IMAGINE

this



also marth's usmash leg hitbox can definitely be SDI'd. that i know for sure

and i've also heard from people that the cinematic hitlag can't be SDI'd but there's also real hitlag after it which can be SDI'd.
so much crap floating up in the air lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

Only marth tippers and zelda's Lightning kicks, usmash's leg hitbox definitely can be SDI'd iirc.

Gotta remember also, SDI =/= DI

 

[Yikarur]

it's not tipper in general that can't be SDI'd. Just Fsmash.

 

[Shaya]

Also I was pretty sure Marth's feet hitbox have a 0 multiplier for SDI.

Just there's an extremely loltastic situation in which the two hitboxes overlap and when you're hit by it at the same time there's crazy magical effects.

(In the hitbox data there is no singular '21' damage hit, but if you do it right in training mode, it will come out as 1 hit [from a running usmash] - how the hitlag is applied in that case is skewiffy)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7fr_O33fyI
Hey guys, guess Thiocyanide and Orion were right, ZSS gets owned by Dedede because all he has to do is powershield her side-bs and rush in for the punish, which explains why Orion was doing that so much when Orion and Mr. R made this bet

The best part about this video isn't that Orion lost because his strategy doesn't work, the best part is that Mr. R's ZSS is pocketly delicious and barely did anything in this video that wasn't expected ZSS **** that Thio and Orion are always claiming is so easy to beat. I don't see Orion reacting and punishing DASH ATTACK TO DSMASH or all that froll spam for some reason, though (completely ignoring that a read of that roll would have resulted in a dsmash but whatever). Nor did I see any powershield to uptilt against all of that grounded side-b spam. Surely Orion had multiple opportunities, what with his superhuman reaction times and whatnot.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I used to think (well, was told) that you couldn't SDI any of Marth's tippers but then I was told that only his usmash (leg hitbox) and fsmash tipper hitbox can't be SDIed. This true? Kinda means MK can survive grab release dair if he's close enough to the stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqNfcRCTwAo#t=4m50s

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

may as well call that a zss combo vid by mr.r near the middle and end lol

 

[Flayl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7fr_O33fyI
Hey guys, guess Thiocyanide and Orion were right, ZSS gets owned by Dedede because all he has to do is powershield her side-bs and rush in for the punish, which explains why Orion was doing that so much when Orion and Mr. R made this bet

The best part about this video isn't that Orion lost because his strategy doesn't work, the best part is that Mr. R's ZSS is pocketly delicious and barely did anything in this video that wasn't expected ZSS **** that Thio and Orion are always claiming is so easy to beat. I don't see Orion reacting and punishing DASH ATTACK TO DSMASH or all that froll spam for some reason, though (completely ignoring that a read of that roll would have resulted in a dsmash but whatever). Nor did I see any powershield to uptilt against all of that grounded side-b spam. Surely Orion had multiple opportunities, what with his superhuman reaction times and whatnot.

Gonna have to side with the guy living in Portugal :D

Spoiler

Bowser still isn't -3 with ZSS get at me

Orion did pretty good against side-B spam but he still fell for plenty of mixups. Also yeah there were no UTilt opportunities, dunno what Thio was talking about.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Gonna have to side with the guy living in Portugal :D

Spoiler

Bowser still isn't -3 with ZSS get at me

Orion did pretty good against side-B spam but he still fell for plenty of mixups. Also yeah there were no UTilt opportunities, dunno what Thio was talking about.

When I have bank card again (ugh, moving to another country is a bit frustrating lol) I'm going to change my name to Supermodel From Porto.

 

[Orion*]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7fr_O33fyI
Hey guys, guess Thiocyanide and Orion were right, ZSS gets owned by Dedede because all he has to do is powershield her side-bs and rush in for the punish, which explains why Orion was doing that so much when Orion and Mr. R made this bet

The best part about this video isn't that Orion lost because his strategy doesn't work, the best part is that Mr. R's ZSS is pocketly delicious and barely did anything in this video that wasn't expected ZSS **** that Thio and Orion are always claiming is so easy to beat. I don't see Orion reacting and punishing DASH ATTACK TO DSMASH or all that froll spam for some reason, though (completely ignoring that a read of that roll would have resulted in a dsmash but whatever). Nor did I see any powershield to uptilt against all of that grounded side-b spam. Surely Orion had multiple opportunities, what with his superhuman reaction times and whatnot.

Even ramin said he didnt think that match was played well on either side, and actually told me (not the other way around) that he didnt want it uploaded but I didnt bother to complain so it was.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Right, well that's because you guys are both using pocket secondaries that neither of you play all that well (sorry it's pretty true, like, you're smart so you can get away with it, but neither of you were playing the characters well) so I guess what I want to know is: why did this come up in the first place? What makes you so sure ZSS doesn't beat King Dedede based on your pocket secondary matches against R's secondary and your games against Thiocyanide? lol at Thiocyanide btw.

I mean, ZSS isn't a top character, it's true, but none of your experiences or anecdotes really suggest that you have any idea how a good ZSS plays and that's really because there are only like two. Mr. R wasn't even frame trapping with dsmash, which is one of the big reasons Nick Riddle is so successful, he sort of made that mainstream and it's really good.

It's really easy to point out weaknesses in a character and say that these make them bad. People have been doing it with Snake for months but he's still winning. Saying things like, "we should be doing X to snake but no one does so he keeps winning" is just as bad as Peach or Marth mains who claim their character is good but their mains aren't doing certain things or whatever. Perception is reality and reality is everything, sorry. You have to actually be able to do these things to good players, you can't just say it's possible and shove ZSS in mid tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good post by SFP for once although the argument that lead to it is ********. Not that I care about DDD vs ZSS a lot to begin with but some of the arguments were just flat-out dumb. Props to Orion for not making a big deal out of it.

And I don't think using Snake as an example is valid. Claiming Snake to be bad / not so good / not top 5 is obviously outrageously dumb, while ZSS in mid-tier isn't. I'd believe ZSS to be low high-tier if there was more than one player doing well with her [and slightly decreasingly so as far as I'm aware]. For now I don't see what makes her better than a mid-tier character.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Good post by SFP for once although the argument that lead to it is ********. Not that I care about DDD vs ZSS a lot to begin with but some of the arguments were just flat-out dumb. Props to Orion for not making a big deal out of it.

And I don't think using Snake as an example is valid. Claiming Snake to be bad / not so good / not top 5 is obviously outrageously dumb, while ZSS in mid-tier isn't. I'd believe ZSS to be low high-tier if there was more than one player doing well with her [and slightly decreasingly so as far as I'm aware]. For now I don't see what makes her better than a mid-tier character.

Did you really just critique the direction my post went instead of responding to the point I made D: What is this, 12th grade English? :/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Right, well that's because you guys are both using pocket secondaries that neither of you play all that well (sorry it's pretty true, like, you're smart so you can get away with it, but neither of you were playing the characters well) so I guess what I want to know is: why did this come up in the first place? What makes you so sure ZSS doesn't beat King Dedede based on your pocket secondary matches against R's secondary and your games against Thiocyanide? lol at Thiocyanide btw.

I mean, ZSS isn't a top character, it's true, but none of your experiences or anecdotes really suggest that you have any idea how a good ZSS plays and that's really because there are only like two. Mr. R wasn't even frame trapping with dsmash, which is one of the big reasons Nick Riddle is so successful, he sort of made that mainstream and it's really good.

It's really easy to point out weaknesses in a character and say that these make them bad. People have been doing it with Snake for months but he's still winning. Saying things like, "we should be doing X to snake but no one does so he keeps winning" is just as bad as Peach or Marth mains who claim their character is good but their mains aren't doing certain things or whatever. Perception is reality and reality is everything, sorry. You have to actually be able to do these things to good players, you can't just say it's possible and shove ZSS in mid tier.

I have to say, I really enjoyed reading this.

I think she is right next to Lucario for the rest of the game above or below him, btw.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

never mind this post

 

[Alphicans]

Good post by SFP for once although the argument that lead to it is ********. Not that I care about DDD vs ZSS a lot to begin with but some of the arguments were just flat-out dumb. Props to Orion for not making a big deal out of it.

And I don't think using Snake as an example is valid. Claiming Snake to be bad / not so good / not top 5 is obviously outrageously dumb, while ZSS in mid-tier isn't. I'd believe ZSS to be low high-tier if there was more than one player doing well with her [and slightly decreasingly so as far as I'm aware]. For now I don't see what makes her better than a mid-tier character.

But snake isn't so good....

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS is a character that has a lot of gimmicks and moves that are very easy to punish on paper, but really hard to actually do in the real world. I think it was RedHalberd that said this, and I agree. He also said something else really true: MK gets away with similar things all the time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Did you really just critique the direction my post went instead of responding to the point I made D: What is this, 12th grade English? :/

No, I just think the point you were making was the ******** part.

 

[Orion*]

Right, well that's because you guys are both using pocket secondaries that neither of you play all that well (sorry it's pretty true, like, you're smart so you can get away with it, but neither of you were playing the characters well) so I guess what I want to know is: why did this come up in the first place?

We both already agreed it was not the best match to use an example of a mu lol, I don't see the point of this.

What makes you so sure ZSS doesn't beat King Dedede based on your pocket secondary matches against R's secondary and your games against Thiocyanide? lol at Thiocyanide btw.

I said I think it's around even first of all. Thiocyanide prolly has more legit tournament wins than you and he's awful/doesnt play the game so LOL

What makes you think anything considering any of the ummmm.... what experience? lol
I've had more than most players imo

I mean, ZSS isn't a top character, it's true, but none of your experiences or anecdotes really suggest that you have any idea how a good ZSS plays and that's really because there are only like two.

Who's the second one...
I've played snakee plenty of times. He's a very smart player, and better than pretty much 95% of the ZSS mains trying to step it up, I don't see your point.

It's really easy to point out weaknesses in a character and say that these make them bad. People have been doing it with Snake for months but he's still winning. Saying things like, "we should be doing X to snake but no one does so he keeps winning" is just as bad as Peach or Marth mains who claim their character is good but their mains aren't doing certain things or whatever. Perception is reality and reality is everything, sorry. You have to actually be able to do these things to good players, you can't just say it's possible and shove ZSS in mid tier.

This isn't inception ***** LOL

I'm sorry you cant read past smashboards and actually look into the game.

My whole argument against ZSS is reaction time. I barely got any sleep the previous two nights before this tournament because I had some airport issues Twice, and getting stuck in amsterdam. Legitimately the whole tournament I was crashed in the corner sleeping and people had to wake me up for matches.

Not even to john or anything, anyone that knows me knows that I don't make excuses and I'm not trying to take anyones win away as far as in game. But if youre going to relate that match to what me and chris where talking about in relation to a matchup, you should also look at the conditions the match where played in.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Then ignore it if thats how you think gheb, dont be a **** about it >.>

Doesnt ZSS have multiple low damage locks?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Then ignore it if thats how you think gheb, dont be a **** about it >.>

I wanted to but then he specifically asked about it.

It's really dumb to talk about though <_<
I suggest we drop it lol

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

some1 should come up with a GOOD topic to discuss

i tried and failed apparently

some1 who matters should do this tho

 

[Matador]

LOL, while watching the video, I was wondering what johns Orion was gonna come up with.

No sleep? Good **** dawg. Nice cover.

I like how it's damn near impossible to prove/provide evidence for anything around here, lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Orion really did sleep all tourney tho

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why is Diddy -1 for Wolf? I think it's even.

 

[Matador]

I mean, if he didn't sleep then he didn't sleep. Legit john, can't do anything about that...

But he made it to GFs on no sleep, and I have a lingering suspicion that if he'd have 2 stocked Mr.R or something, then he prolly wouldn't sing the same tune about lack of sleep and bad representation of the match-up...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's +1 for Diddy.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

It's +1 for Diddy.

he asked why tho. not just for a repeat of what's stated lol.

but since you said that im gonna assume you about the match up so now im curious as to why diddy beats wolf. could you/others explain?

 

[Laem]

cuz diddy combos wolf 0-80 and then he like deals 50 more % and then throws banana down in front of u and dsmashes for the kill
broken mownkey he is

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Toon Link looks more like a high tier when I reread his MU's. Kirby probably falls short and is at the top of mid tier.

Does G&W really get -2'd by all those characters?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Toon Link is the bottom of high tier imo.

 

[Alphicans]

.
Does G&W really get -2'd by all those characters?

Not by snake and olimar imo. Snake should be 0 and oli should be -1 (although it's a very bad -1 if that makes sense).

IC's is stage list dependent. Anything less than a 9 starter list, GaW loses -2. In 9 starter list, it's a -1, and I think most GaW's would actually agree with that.

 

[WindMajor]

I can't possibly imagine TL as a high tier character. He's top of mid tier IMO, and should be above ZSS.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

G&W seems odd in many places, which is why I asked, if they were all that bad I would drop him to mid tier in a heartbeat, good against low tiers or not, having that many -2's or worse is really bad for him.

TL, every Toon Link says I'm wrong when I say he could be bottom of high tier, lol. He seems to show up about as much as Lucario at high levels, his spread is pretty nice all around, he has a few bad ones, but nothing that would strike out to me as anything worse than some of the people above him, heck for some he does about the same as a few high tiers.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I can't possibly imagine TL as a high tier character. He's top of mid tier IMO, and should be above ZSS.

I have 0 idea what's going on in the BBR, nor how the 6th tierlist will turn out once it's completed, but last I checked ZSS is bottom of High tier.
Unless she's moved back to MT and Toon Link stays top of MT. Then we have possibly Olimar going into Top tier which then leaves only "4" Characters in High tier...

TL, every Toon Link says I'm wrong when I say he could be bottom of high tier, lol. He seems to show up about as much as Lucario at high levels, his spread is pretty nice all around, he has a few bad ones, but nothing that would strike out to me as anything worse than some of the people above him, heck for some he does about the same as a few high tiers.

Pretty much what was on my mind.

 

[Alphicans]

G&W seems odd in many places, which is why I asked, if they were all that bad I would drop him to mid tier in a heartbeat, good against low tiers or not, having that many -2's or worse is really bad for him.
.

Yeah pretty much. Some people even think MK is a -1. I am actually slowly starting to see why, but still think it's more of a -2 than a -1.

IMO the for sure -2's are: marth, IC's with 7 or 5 starter list

The maybe -2's: olimar, MK

The for sure -1's: diddy (meh)

The maybe -1's: Olimar, MK, Toonlink

Then some controversial even's would be: Snake and ZSS

I also think we beat more characters than shown on the list, and by more. There's not much GaW rep, so it's really hard to tell what the match-ups are, and GaW's differ on opinions A LOT.