Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Conviction]

Still think it's exagerated too much kinda like DK vs Fox. Should be -1.

...

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[stingers]

i think its 55/45 imo. fox def wins but its not like...THAT bad. y'all get damage way too fast for my liking but besides that, fox gets outranged and outcamped (shine doesnt help much since ROB can angle his lasers so he wont be hit by the reflection anyway, so its no different from PSing except laggier lol) and foxes lasers cover a very small part of the stage at any given time which means we can get around them pretty easily (lack of KB helps a lot too lol).

 

[Conviction]

i think its 55/45 imo. fox def wins but its not like...THAT bad. y'all get damage way too fast for my liking but besides that, fox gets outranged and outcamped (shine doesnt help much since ROB can angle his lasers so he wont be hit by the reflection anyway, so its no different from PSing except laggier lol) and foxes lasers cover a very small part of the stage at any given time which means we can get around them pretty easily (lack of KB helps a lot too lol).

Just want to mention that Fox can cancel the hitlag with a jump when shining.

 

[Spelt]

he can also roll.





contributing.

 

[stingers]

so your forced into roll or jump instead of whatever you want >.> doesnt change my point

 

[Exdeath]

so your forced into roll or jump instead of whatever you want >.> doesnt change my point

Or Fox can just release and not be punished unless you're in his face, which is a very different situation all together.

Not to mention that SHing out of it is basically just going to be a SHTL at mid-range+.

 

[Conviction]

so your forced into roll or jump instead of whatever you want >.> doesnt change my point

Jumping doesn't put Fox in a bad position, especially if ROB is in a camping position.

 

[stingers]

it doesnt put you in a good position either...

you jump out of shine from halfway across the stage, you cant hit us or position yourself to hit us any easier, all you can do is shoot lasers or wait to fall. you lose that battle lol. that is all I am saying.

 

[Exdeath]

it doesnt put you in a good position either...

you jump out of shine from halfway across the stage, you cant hit us or position yourself to hit us any easier, all you can do is shoot lasers or wait to fall. you lose that battle lol. that is all I am saying.

How is being unaffected by your laser and shooting you with Fox' laser a losing trade?

 

[Conviction]

it doesnt put you in a good position either...

you jump out of shine from halfway across the stage, you cant hit us or position yourself to hit us any easier, all you can do is shoot lasers or wait to fall. you lose that battle lol. that is all I am saying.

Reflecting potential damage and setting it back to a neutral position sounds like a win to me.

How is being unaffected by your laser and shooting you with Fox' laser a losing trade?

This

 

[Spelt]

a neutral position isn't a win for either character, it's ... neutral.
lol guys.

 

[Conviction]

Lol sorry I feel a little ******** now

 

[stingers]

alright first off y'all are assuming that each laser is being shined or some **** which is never gonna happen lol. all 'outcamped' means is that 1 char is getting more damage on the other char from long range basically forcing the losing char to approach or get ****ed up. now in super swf theory bros fighter 4 for the psWii60 maybe fox wins because he can shoot more **** at you but in reality it doesnt work that way BECAUSE ROB controls space better from afar then fox does. while foxes are trying to shine everything you do and triple laser over and over (which hits a limited area, since it moves in a straight line and only at foxs sh height, as well as not having KB) all ROB has to do is rotate his projectiles to cover where fox can move. if ROB is shooting his lasers above foxs head, he cannot jump to laser, if rob lays a gyro at foxs feet, he has to commit to something to remove the problem, etc. meanwhile fox's camping is STRICTLY for damage, you can't control space with it because 1. it has no KB so really you can just take the 2% and move right through it and punish and 2. it moves in a straight line so there is no variation in where you're being attacked from (ie. you can always say FH over SH lasers and stand under FH lasers and you will never be hit).

idk tell me if what im saying has a major hole in it or something because i've never had a problem with outcamping foxes before, I just have problems with fox's damn juggles lol

 

[DMG]

IDK about ROB outcamping Fox. At worst, that would seem even for Fox.

 

[Exdeath]

Shine comes out as fast as shield, so I don't see how he isn't going to shine all of R.O.B.'s lasers at long distance. Also, all of your extra coverage you just said is defeated by simply staying in shine. It isn't very laggy... Alternatively, if you're launching a gyro at Fox' feet, I would expect Fox to either drift away or just jump away (the latter being a positive stage control advantage for R.O.B.).

 

[Conviction]

Up throw Glide Toss I see as an effective approach because it baits Shield/Shine

 

[C.J.]

nvm, ignore

 

[Seagull Joe]

Shine comes out as fast as shield, so I don't see how he isn't going to shine all of R.O.B.'s lasers at long distance.

You see that doesn't matter. Wolf's shine comes out as fast as shield to and not every laser from Rob will be reflected. You also have to consider if Fox is lasering or doing an action from a distance because that is what gets him damaged. Trades.

 

[Exdeath]

You see that doesn't matter. Wolf's shine comes out as fast as shield to and not every laser from Rob will be reflected. You also have to consider if Fox is lasering or doing an action from a distance because that is what gets him damaged. Trades.

My understanding of the situation was that Fox is shining R.O.B.'s laser and then punishing it with a SHTL. Basically, Fox is just waiting to punish and reacting to R.O.B., not actively attempting to laser R.O.B.

 

[Judo777]

You see that doesn't matter. Wolf's shine comes out as fast as shield to and not every laser from Rob will be reflected. You also have to consider if Fox is lasering or doing an action from a distance because that is what gets him damaged. Trades.

I have no real barring on the argument but Wolf's shine is a little different then foxes simply due to speed. Wolf's shine is invincible frame 1 (just like foxes). However the actual reflector shield of wolfs comes out (I believe) after invincibility has left (just like foxes i believe). Wolfs invincibility lasts 9 frame (frame 1-9) where as foxes lasts 3 frames (frames 1-3). Therefore whether it comes out on the last frame of invincibility or 1 frame after that means wolfs actual reflector comes out frame 9 minimum where as foxes reflector comes out frame 3 minimum. That's a 6 frame difference which is actually pretty big.

Not positive on the frame data concerning the actual reflecting properties but I'm pretty much saying wolfs actual reflector is alot slower than foxes due to it having so much more invincibility.

 

[stingers]

lol then I would just walk up to him and ftilt or something. sitting in shine is a terrible idea

 

[Conviction]

Lol this only going to turn into theorycraft, and I'll just stop this thing here and say you win.

 

[Exdeath]

lol then I would just walk up to him and ftilt or something. sitting in shine is a terrible idea

That's why I said at long range.

 

[Spelt]

Lol this only going to turn into theorycraft, and I'll just stop this thing here and say you win.

Turn into....?

 

[Conviction]

Turn into....?

as in.

"Well lol I can do D jumps over E and Fs you up"
"No your A can't B that way because when I do this you can't C me"

Repeat this back and forth and unfold more silly banter.

 

[Judo777]

as in.

"Well lol I can do D jumps over E and Fs you up"
"No your A can't B that way because when I do this you can't C me"

Repeat this back and forth and unfold more silly banter.

Hahaha we those letter puns intended? "and Fs you up....... you can't C me." lol made me laugh

 

[_Kain_]

Uhhh...ROB's laser isn't really a threat to begin with unless your recovering or he's recovering, whereas most shoot it while their recovering. Other than that it's not really a move that should be reflectored since it really isn't much of a threat. The gyro is something more to worry about imo, the laser is just like filler

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

as in.

"Well lol I can do D jumps over E and Fs you up"
"No your A can't B that way because when I do this you can't C me"

Repeat this back and forth and unfold more silly banter.

This is why I just write up on what gives each character trouble and why instead of each picky situational stuff.

Like Lucario vs Wolf for example write up

~

Lucario has an Uthrow CG. Use aura sphere with his reflector in mind, if you see blaster is gonna come out read this and fire AS. Aura sphere is sparingly used, never use it in a neutral position, in the air or on landing when you think he won't reflect or is gonna commit to something else like an aerial. This also applies to aerials his shine can and will outspeed Lucario's aerials with the initial hitbox if you don;t space properly. His Shine is good.

He gets locked into a lot of strings and such because of his weight, his spacing is mad good, Bair is great against Lucario, try and get him to use it while rising so Lucario can punish it properly, landing is a bit more tricky because Lucario's grab range is bad and doesn't have a super fast move OoS outside of jab or Utilt, neither which will reach a properly spaced Bair falling or retreating. Utilt can work if he does it rising or approaching.

Fair is about the same range as Marth's Fair so watch for it if he is aiming for a kill. It's slower so it's easier to respond to but it is deceptive in range, learn it.

Try and get him to aim for the ledge or scar, if you can figure out which he will do you can intercept one or the other but you nee dot be fast and it's off a read.

Lucario's Fsmash is punishable at low % on block, Wolf can Dacus or Fsmash OoS, if you use it, do it on landing, or a read of a spot dodge, like Aura Sphere.

Neither can really gimp each other if they know how to recover properly. It's just being a good player really, both have the spacing tools, Wolf's bair is better horizontally, Lucario's have a lot of follow ups and transcendent range.

50:50, 0 etc. etc.

List what is good to do in the MU, what is bad to do in the MU, and what to watch out for.

~

Theory crafting situations, doesn't help so much when you just need some general info for the MU to let people know what to do so they can learn the basic stuff then pick up on the situation stuff they will learn by just playing the MU.

 

[Exdeath]

Theory crafting situations, doesn't help so much when you just need some general info for the MU to let people know what to do so they can learn the basic stuff then pick up on the situation stuff they will learn by just playing the MU.

Theorized and practiced are different from specified and summarized.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

True.

Guess I'm just listing what I personally find to be helpful, situation stuff is good for people who play the character but for people who don't, which is who write up help, it's not good as a start point.

Good for additional notes though.

 

[Deleted member]

True.

Guess I'm just listing what I personally find to be helpful, situation stuff is good for people who play the character but for people who don't, which is who write up help, it's not good as a start point.

Good for additional notes though.

I find your method to be pretty helpful as well. Seems a lot more concrete in getting MU ratios across.

 

[san.]

I believe it is more helpful to create strategies against certain moves/tactics than arguing over semantics in MU numbers.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

question

what characters do you think would go drastically up or down if america had not only it's current gaming ability (im talkin how the best players here are good because of mindgames and shiz) but also the tech skill of japanese players (like how everyone there can footstool lock diddy kong, etc)?

i think a lot of placements could change, but i don't really know which ones. IMO tho diddy would probably go down. wat do you guys think?

 

[Yikarur]

Lucario can't cg Wolf with upthrow, shine

 

[Orion*]

Still you and Theo were trying to cite your case on it being in DDD's favor using a specific method, Theo was using you in particular as evidence for it, which is why SFP brought it up again with that video.

I see what you were trying to do, a lot with spot dodging and PSing a lot during that match. But it didn't shut her down or even matter as much unless she committed with bad spacing where you were right up close to her as DDD.

You may have both made mistakes, but he is pointing out that your theory with DDD didn't work out like many said it would.

Youre not even supposed to spotdodge half as much as I did LOOOOL. Theres like almost no reason to spot dodge vs her unless you read a grab

Damn

Mr-R in here with the BACKUP.

If it was Orion I'd totally say BLACKUP because that would be HI-LARIOUS.

LOLOLOL

LOL I just think you shouldn't judge someone or a matchup by one match

True fax.

I believe it is more helpful to create strategies against certain moves/tactics than arguing over semantics in MU numbers.

So do I. However most people whine instead of getting better... It's what makes the difference between good and bad players.

Thats why I like playing Mr.R so much actually. He makes some gay mixup, then I make one to counter that, and then he counters that. And now it to the point where he can go like LOLOLOL fthrow twice, double nair to fsmash in friendlies sometimes because he knows my DI on autopilot.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I believe it is more helpful to create strategies against certain moves/tactics than arguing over semantics in MU numbers.

Agreeing with ya there.

Lucario can't cg Wolf with upthrow, shine

Lucario can CG Wolf, Fox, Ganon and Captain Falcon with Uthrow, % depends on aura buff, 0-38 if your under 40 then 0-25 if your inbetween 40-160, and after 160 he can't do it. He can do it if you time the grab properly.

If shine did come out, you did it too late.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lucario can't cg Wolf with upthrow, shine

He can from like 0-20ish if it's buffer'd and stutter stepped foward. D.Disciple and Trela discovered how to do it. I tried shining out to no avail. It works, but is difficult for Lucario to do and ends up being almost the same cg as on Fox. Not matchup breaking because Side B>Fair>Nair does more damage and is better for ledge trapping Wolf.

 

[DeLux]

Can either panel of the ZSS v IC matchup kind of break down the rationale with it in ZSS's favor? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just curious as to why.

I've only played two ZSS's in tournament and they were super close matches. But I had no idea what I was doing sooooooo any insight is helpful either way.

 

[Z'zgashi]

He can from like 0-20ish if it's buffer'd and stutter stepped foward. D.Disciple and Trela discovered how to do it. I tried shining out to no avail. It works, but is difficult for Lucario to do and ends up being almost the same cg as on Fox. Not matchup breaking because Side B>Fair>Nair does more damage and is better for ledge trapping Wolf.

Couldn't they uthrow CG > Force palm > fair > nair?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Couldn't they uthrow CG > Force palm > fair > nair?

Nope. After the cg Wolf can just jump. Lucario's either will shield (Expecting a shine) or Utilt (Not expect a shine).